Talk:Lincoln's House Divided Speech

It’s in The Bible. God said it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.117.167.253 (talk) 16:09, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Wikisource

This text already exists on Wikisource [[1]]. Shouldn't this page be removed? --Valentinian 22:54, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

The text was deleted from that page in November 2005. It has been on https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Life_and_Works_of_Abraham_Lincoln/Volume_4/A_House_Divided_Against_Itself_Cannot_Stand since January 2011. Mcljlm (talk) 02:10, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

First Inaugural

Why is the text of the First Inaugural Address attached to comments on Lincoln's speech of June 16, 1858? Even as an illustration of Lincoln's thinking about union and division, shouldn't it rather be the latter speech that is reproduced here? Ahqeter 10:34, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Biblical Quotation

Abraham Lincoln's "House Divided" speech raises some questions about him. The quotation from Matthew 12:25 is not just from the Bible; it is directly attributed to Jesus. All of Lincoln's political associates warned him he must remove the quotation. David Davis told him the quotation would alienate the old line Whigs in the mid state districts and drive them to vote for Douglas. Lincoln absolutely refused. He went so far as to say he would rather leave the quotation in his speech and lose than take it out and win. We need to ask why Lincoln would take such a strong stand when he knew it could lead to the charge he was substituting the Bible for the Constitution. In the end Lincoln did lose the Whig votes he needed and he did lose the election. A detailed description of this may be found in "Lincoln and Douglas" by Allen Guelzo. Ishmael Dott (talk) 08:41, 11 July 2011 (UTC)Ishmael Dott

Date of Speech

This article states that the speech was given on June 16, 1858, but this source and others from 1860 identify the date of the speech as June 17, 1858. Was this a printer's mistake, that was propagated to other publications, and later corrected? Pete (talk) 17:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Full text of speech?

Just curious. Why doesn't this page include the text of the speech or link to the wikisource version? https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Life_and_Works_of_Abraham_Lincoln/Volume_4/A_House_Divided_Against_Itself_Cannot_Stand Diablanco (talk) 01:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Corrected. deisenbe (talk) 00:56, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

in the course of ultimate extinction

• "THE AMERICAN STRUGGLE.; Speech of Hon. Y. N. Arnold, of Illinois". New York Times. 12 March 1865. p. 3. In the House of Representatives, Feb. 20, 1865 the House having under consideration the special order, being the Reconstruction Bill, Mr. ARNOLD said: .. It is historically demonstrable that the framers of the Constitution in organizing the Government tolerated the existence of slavery as a temporary evil which they believed was in the course of ultimate extinction. They never intended it should be extended beyond the limits of the States in which it men existed. Hence its prohibition in the northwest by the ordinance of 1787, and the provision for the abolition of the slave-trade.

Should there be mention of how Lincoln used a phrase used three months earlier by Mr. Arnold? Does it originate earlier? WakandaQT (talk) 07:03, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

If we just make that observation on our own it would be original research. See WP:NOR. For all we know, that was a common phrase at the time. Or maybe a Lincoln heard it from a different person. There needs to be a competent scholar making this connection for us to report it. Mobi Ditch (talk) 19:33, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Google reports that "ultimate extinction" was used to refer to the eventual end of slavery, and other things, prior to the speeches of either Lincoln or Arnold (possibly Issac N. Arnold, confusingly referred to as Y.N. Arnold in the New York Times). In fact, one dates back as far as 1824. And another from 1833. And again in 1853. And so on. It appears that both speakers simply repeated a phrase in common use about the topic. Arnold's biography of Lincoln even uses it to refer to the subject's intent. Mobi Ditch (talk) 04:27, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Prior Mentions of "a house divided" Split?

The section "Prior mentions of 'a house divided'" doesn't seem to add anything to the article's main topic. If the article is about Lincoln's speech, then why mention previous uses of the phrase? Wouldn't it be better to split this section into a list or possibly even a disambiguation page? Springfield2020 (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Professional Life in Illinois Reverse.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:55, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Prior mentions - Bible versions

Ishmael Dott, Valentinian, Ahqeter, Peterklevy, Deisenbe, Diablanco, Mobi Ditch, Springfield2020, Marcocapelle, Srich32977, Felida97, Thebiguglyalien, Qwerty12302, Shad0 The Luke 11:17 quote is from a 1978 Bible version. Since the article relates to a 1858 speech that should be replaced with a much earlier version. The only other version mentioned in the section is the KJV. Do any of you know if that is the only translation Lincoln was familar with? Mcljlm (talk) 11:32, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

I admittedly would have no idea. My apologies for not being able to help. Springfield2020 (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't know either, I'm afraid, but it looks as if the KJV was pretty much the standard throughout the 1800s. That's the version on which Lincoln took his inaugural oath (although, as you correctly point out, that was three years after this speech, and additionally it wasn't his personal bible anyway). Shadow (talk) 19:50, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

References