Talk:List of Toyota engines

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No Straight 6 IS300 information?

It's in the straight-six JZ section: the 2JZ-GE.--MARQUIS111 13:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A big thank you

Just wanted to thank everyone helping out on the Diesel section. - Irott 19:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1CD-FTV Engine

I just changed the release year from the CD family (1CD-FTV) because it was 2000, not 2001. In fact, I own a 1CD-FTV engine since November 2000.

Naming conflicts for early engines

I've added details for the earliest Toyota engines (A,B,C,S). All of these names conflict with later engines from the 70's onwards. I have choosen to prefix the early engines with 'Type' (eg Type A) to avoid conflicts. Toyota themselves usually identified them as Type A, etc, but they also did that for the later engines. Can anyone see a problem with this or suggest a better scheme? Stepho-wrs 06:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

References

As Flash176 correctly pointed out, we need references. However, they must be authoritative reference4s. Fan clubs and personal pages are not enough. As an example, I consider my personal Toyota engines web page [1] to very accurate and comprehensive built on information derived from reliable sources. However, but I do not consider it to be an authoritative source because it did not go through any peer review process or through a professional editorial staff. Likewise, club pages such as [2] are (often but not always) accurate and comprehensive but also have not gone through a proper peer review and editorial process. I've seen the Celica history on that site and have found it the be US centric without telling readers that it only applies to US Celicas. Every club site I know of has copied it's engine code page from Matti's site [3]. Even I based my page on Matti's page but then I separately verified the codes used up to 1985 and made some corrections and additions. Matti built up a very comprehensive list but he did not go through an peer review or editorial process either. Does anybody know where the -M code for the Philippines comes from? It comes from my own website, derived from information in the Toyota Vehicle Identification Manual - not copied directly but derived from seeing that engine code only on vehicles sold in the Philippines. Any web page that says -M is for the Philippines market is ultimately derived from my webpage (or Matti's with additions from my page). Likewise for the -J code. Which means that they are not getting their information from Toyota sources but are simply copying mine. To rectify the situation, I have some official Toyota manuals with some codes used up to about 1975. I will cite these as references. The others (eg -M) technically count as original research but it would be silly to remove them. Maybe I'll just cite the manuals I derived the info from. Stepho-wrs (talk) 23:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stepho, a few things:

Do you know when Matti put that information up on his site? I saw the same chart in '04 (on www.matrixowners.com) so if he hadn't added it to his site by then, it had to come from somewhere else (meaning that the chart isn't necessarily copied from his page).

Also, I was rushed and Wikipedia wouldn't give me space to write it out, but what I should have said was not that the site was authoritative, but that the information is at least mostly (probably completely) accurate, and for now at least, that page would do as a reference until a better source can be located.

Lastly, why do you say anyone claiming M denotes the Philippines and J is for Unknown means it has been copied from your sites? Unless the M and J are things you and Matti guessed at, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they got their information from the same source(s) as you? I'm not saying this is definitely the case (you're probably correct in your assumptions), but just saying it might not be. And the manuals would be great references.--Flash176 (talk) 01:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's easy to get confused in these things, so I will explain. I started researching Toyota history, model codes, engine codes, etc in 1998. I have collected many Toyota brochures, Toyota technical manuals, Toyota repair books, Toyota published histories and third party histories. I also looked for as many information sites as I could find. Matti's site was already well known when I started in 1998. Originally no other sites offered that info. Over the years many other sites suddenly got a technical section with the exact same wording as Matti. To the best of my considerable knowledge, they all copied Matti verbatim - including me. Most did not credit him (I did). A few years ago I discovered the M and J engine codes in the Toyota VIM for vehicles sold in the Philippines, so I added them to my web site. Note that this was in listings like RT100L-KRFM, 12R-M. There was no appendix explicitly stating that M meant the Philippines - I had to work it out. A few months later I noticed the exact same codes with the exact same wording appear on numerous other sites - most of them without crediting me. So yes, I do say that most (possibly all) of them copied the codes from either me or Matti (possibly indirectly through me).

Secondly, it's not up to me to disprove your sources, it's up to you to prove your sources are authoritative. Wikipedia guidelines say that sources should be printed publications (except self published works), websites if they are by the company involved (ie toyota.com) or websites by some well known publishing company with peer review and editorial processes. Your reference fails the test. I do recognise that you thought any reference is better than none, but the reference you gave is only suitable as an external reference and not as an actual citation. Otherwise I would have used my own site as a reference (which is a lot more complete and accurate concerning models and codes).

I hope that clears things up. Hopefully this will be sorted out and we can get back to adding info. Cheers. Stepho-wrs (talk) 07:26, 21 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Valve Angle" myth

I think it's pretty much without question that the "F" and "G" cylinder head designations do NOT have anything to do with the included valve angle.

4A-FE: 22.3

4A-GE 16-valve/5M/7M-GE: 45/50 depending on source

4A-GE 20-valve: 37.5 (for side valves I think?)

3S-GE/GTE/2JZ (non-BEAMS): 44.5

BEAMS 3S-GE: No exact measurement but cams are approximately 20mm closer than on non-BEAMS heads, giving it a much smaller angle.

2ZZ-GE: 43, widely misquoted as 50, many sources quote all "G" heads as 50 degrees...

http://image.turbomagazine.com/f/25196617/turp_0106_12_z+honda_vtec_vs_toyota_vvtli+2zz_ge_cross_section.jpg

1ZZ-FE: 33.1

2AZ-FE: 27.5

1LR-GUE: cannot find any published measurement at this point but it looks to be in the 30-40 degree range based on:

http://image.internetautoguide.com/f/auto-news/2010-lexus-lfa-official-v10-engine-codenamed-1lr-geu-550-hp-ahhhh/25657217/1lr-geu-engine-in-lexus-lfa.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/V10_1LR-GUE_LFA_engine.jpg

Until we can find a measurement of the LF-A's 1LR-GUE, the only one of these that really sticks out is the BEAMS head, which is probably around 35 degrees. Wouldn't that make it a 3S-FE? At the very least the "G" designation should be known as a high-performance designation rather than an indicator of included valve angle. The trend in high-performance engines has been towards upright ports and narrower angles for at least a couple of decades. That is common knowledge, look at any modern sportbike cylinder head, or the Honda K20 is a great example at less than 30 degrees. The "wide-included-angle = high performance" belief has been disproven, as nearly all high-performance motors try to get the straightest port possible. From a cylinder geometry point of view, increasing the angle allows one to use a larger diameter valve, but only to a point as flow suffers when there is a large bend in the port. http://www.calculatedrisk.ca/pics/tradex2004/image0010.JPG

The one thing that all of the "G" heads DO have in common is that they were designed by Yamaha. That extends from the 4A-G to the 3S-GE/GTE to the JZ motors to the 2ZZ-GE to the 1LR-GUE and not to any other Toyota motors. I think this is the most plausible explanation since, at least from a technical designation point of view, the motor's designer might be more plausible to include in the motor's designation than "level of performance" which might have a blurry definition (the 2GR is a great example of a powerhouse motor sold in both Camries and Lotuses, is it high performance or bread-and-butter family car motor?). At least from Toyota's point of view.

At the very least I think we should re-evaluate the official Wikipedia definition for "F" and "G." The references for this page are either broken or fan pages, there is nothing official from Toyota, and to my knowledge (I have been searching for it for years) there has never been any. It is merely an internet myth.

Please add your thoughts. Thanks -- Bdc101 (talk) 20:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the list of valve angle measurements. The 1LR-GUE is 40 degrees (http://www.lexusgb-press.co.uk/protected/releases/2009/58915lex.htm). The common thing for 'G' heads is that the both cams are driven directly by the timing belt/chain. The two sprockets must be at least a certain distance apart so that they don't interfere with each other - which forces the cams to be further apart and thus makes them suitable for wider valve angles. The 'F' heads have one cam driven by the timing belt/chain and then the other cam is driven by gears from the first cam. This means the cams must be close together (assuming no noisy and expensive intermediate gear train is used) which makes them suitable for narrow valve angles. There are only two engine families I know of that have both types - the 3S-GE/3S-FE and the 4A-GE/4A-FE. In both cases the F heads have narrower angles compared to the equivalent G head. The G heads that I am personally familiar with (18R-G, 5M-GE, 7M-GE) have rather wide valve angles. So, the F/G designation has a pretty good correlation to the narrow/wide valve angle and 100% correlation to way the cams are driven.

The correlation that doesn't match up is 'G' is for performance and 'F is for economy. This was definitely true up to the early 1990's (3S-GE and 4A-GE being the performance engines and the 3S-FE, 5S-FE and 7A-FE being the economy engines) but then new series of engines all went for narrow valve angles. Apparently the hemi style combustion chamber (which requires wide valve angles) has fallen out of favour and narrow valve angles are preferred even for most performance engines (1LR-GUE excepted).

As for the Yamaha connection, I'm reasonably sure Yamaha designed every twincam head for Toyota (old/new, F/G) but I don't have a good reference for that. Cheers. Stepho (talk) 22:57, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The page you cite says that the 1LR has a 40-valve DOHC configuration, not 40 degrees. I googled for about an hour and couldn't find any reference to its valve angle.

The dual-independently-driven-cam explanation is also certainly plausible. However I've never heard anything about Yamaha building Toyota's bread-and-butter "F" heads. I'll look when I get home (I do have a 1MZ-FE disassembled in the garage right now) to see if there are any "YAMAHA" markings on the cylinder heads. The 5S-FE I disassembled last fall did not have any Yamaha markings on it that I can find (took many pictures of the project). All "G" heads do have the Yamaha logo on the head or on the timing cover, though, and a google search with the terms "yamaha" and several "F" motor designations returns no results. Yamaha has done this kind of contract work for Ford as well (SHO motors).

At least I think it's clear we need to remove the "wide-angle" and "narrow-angle" references in this page. Bdc101 (talk) 23:30, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, my mistake for the 40 valve vs 40 degrees confusion. The Yamaha logo is not definitive. The early 18R-G and 2T-G heads had Yamaha logos but around 1980 the logo disappeared. This coincided with emissions changes that used slightly larger valves. Obviously the head was still heavily based on the old Yamaha design because the cams and manifolds were still interchangeable (which I have done to my 18R-GU head). Not sure if the new 18R-GU head was 100% designed by Yamaha or just the old Yamaha design that was modified slightly by Toyota. My guess is that the initial contract was for the logo to appear for a set number of years but that is only a guess. Anyway, the presence/absence of the Yamaha logo is not a reliable indicator of who designed it. Stepho (talk) 04:19, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, well until we find any evidence that Yamaha was involved with any "F" heads, let's just leave that one on the shelf. I will do some searching and inquire with an old college buddy who works for Toyota in LA. He'll know if Yamaha does anything on their current "F" heads. Bdc101 (talk) 15:00, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should also note that many late-model "F" heads have both cams driven independently by the timing chain. 1NZ-FE, 2AZ-FE, 1ZZ-FE, 2AR-FE are all examples, while the modern V6s (MZ/GR) do have a slaved cam. So having one cam slaved to the other cannot be what the "F" denotes. Bdc101 (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, so much for my theory on how the cams are driven. Pity, it had a 100% match up to 1990 (I've only worked on older engines)

engine	claimed narrow	claimed wide
18R-G/GU/GEU		40-50 eyeball estimate
2T-G/GEU		40-50 eyeball estimate
4A-FE	22.3
4A-GE 16-valve		45/50 depending on source
5M-GE		45/50 depending on source
7M-GE		45/50 depending on source
4A-GE 20-valve		37.5 (for side valves I think?)
3S-GE (non-BEAMS)		44.5
3S-GTE (non-BEAMS)		44.5
2JZ-GE (non-BEAMS)		44.5
BEAMS 3S-GE		20mm closer than on non-BEAMS heads, giving it a much smaller angle.
2ZZ-GE		43
1ZZ-FE	33.1
2AZ-FE	27.5
1NZ-FE	33.5 [4]

I rearranged your data (and added the 1NZ-FE) into the above table. If we take narrow as meaning less than 35 degrees and wide as more than 35 then the table seems to match quite well. There are a few that stray perilously close but most manufacturers are not very consistent with their nomenclature. I'm happy to just keep it as F=narrow, G=wide. Stepho (talk) 22:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for putting that table together, I'm new to wikipedia editing and still learning how to make things look nice. For now I agree with you, let's leave it as is, but I'm hoping to get some dimensions from a BEAMS 3S-GE cylinder head as that may be the deciding factor (OR the LF-A motor, of course). Bdc101 (talk) 23:05, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No problems. I've been here a few years but I'm still learning new ways to do things too :) Stepho (talk) 04:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I do this incorrectly, not sure how to post images. I stumbled upon this as well as I've talked to people close to Toyota engineers and they've always told me that G heads are casted by Yamaha regardless of Yamaha stamping and even some of the old engines from the 70's would sometimes not have the stampings depending on year. So to try and help with the discussion I took a technical diagram from the 1LR-GUE and put it into cad to measure the included angle found it was 26 degrees (link). I tried it on the 2ZZ-GE to compare what was on the table and I got 45 degrees so although not exact, it seems pretty close (link). I also tried it on 4AGE 16v and 20v to see how accurate it is taking photos or diagrammatic illustrations and measuring them in cad, this is what I got.

4A-GE 20V 39 Degrees

4A-GE 16V 50 Degrees and 51 Degrees

So far it seems good. What do you guys think? 76.169.123.18 (talk) 02:53, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Sigma_Projects (talk)[reply]

Your basic technique for calculating angles is good enough for this discussion (+/- a couple of degrees). And I'll take your word that it is a 1LR-GUE head.

Toyota have never really been consistent with their naming schemes. There is a pattern but they break the pattern almost as much as they follow it. See my website for examples:

26° is certainly a lot smaller than the other engines marked as -G. But given Toyota's habit of breaking the pattern, I'd be happy to say that whoever named the engine had his formulative years in the days when G meant performance and F meant economy. So he therefore gave it the code traditionally (but not currently) associated with performance. Of course, I'm just speculating but I can't think of any other consistent explanation. Stepho talk 04:20, 10 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know, yes I also heard from Toyota employees that G can stand for simply as "performance head." To make sure there is no doubt that that's the head diagram from the 1LR-GUE I went ahead and looked for more documentation. Here is a PDF directly from Yamaha that goes into detail about the 1LR-GUE. I then took the image from page 3 of this PDF and measured again and got 25 degrees which is within 1 degree of the other diagram I found of the 1LR-GUE head. 02:22, 15 August 2016 (UTC) Sigma_Projects (talk)

Excellent! Stepho talk 04:41, 15 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Diesel straight 4

The list of B engines is incomplete. The 14B also has a turbo version, the 14BT. Likewise, the 13B and 13BT. Simply look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_B_engine In addition, there's something missing from that list too: the 3BII, the 2nd generation 3B, with a rotary injection pump, as opposed to the inline injection pump from the original 3B. 3BII used in the BJ61. Vince (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dynamic Force engines (A25A, V35A)

It might be a good idea to figure out how to group the Dynamic Force engines together, or maybe just aim all of them at the same article - there's some indications that the A25A and V35A are actually the same family, despite one being a 2.5 I4, the other being a 3.5 V6.

Some of this might also become more clear when Toyota releases additional members of the Dynamic Force family, so we know how things get designated. Bhtooefr (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the moment I would just put the A25A engine in the straight-4 list and the V35A in the V6 list. Not enough information to do anything more. Stepho talk 23:21, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Including Non-Toyota produced engines that have been also given a Toyota Engine Designation?

I'd like to ask if its appropriate to list the equivalent toyota engine code for a non toyota engine in a toyota application? I have been reading around and found about the Toyota 1WZ engine used in the 2000 E110 european corolla which seems to be related if not the same as the PSA DW8 engine(there was a listing of the corolla in the PSA XUD wiki page but the bore and stroke seems to match the DW8 instead so i moved the corolla entry to the DW8 wiki in the meantime). There are other PSA engines that have a toyota WZ designation but they are either in vehicles jointly devoloped with PSA(such as the aygo) or is a plain rebadge of a PSA vehicle. TheBitterNoob (talk) 15:47, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. There was also the unloved 1X engine used in the Australian version of the XT130 Corona. This was actually a Holden Starfire 4-cylinder which was itself a cut down version of the 6-cylinder Holden red engine. Newer Toyota cars such as the Toyota 86 and the Supra also have non-Toyota engines. Stepho talk 11:10, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, will go do that

TheBitterNoob (talk) 16:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Non-production engines

Davism0703 recently added entries for the Toyota H8909 engine. I'm not against listing them but I do feel that they should be separated somehow from the production engines. Also, there are a lot of missing race engines such as the engines in the 79E used in the Toyota 7, the 2T-G/18R-G derived race engines, the 3S derived 503 and the 88C-V. Stepho talk 06:43, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]