Talk:List of football clubs in England by competitive honours won/Archive 6

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2022

The Sheriff of London Charity Shield shouldn't be included,thus Liverpool have 66 trophies,tied with Manchester United SIKAKAS (talk) 12:12, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Why shouldn't the Sheriff of London Charity Shield be included? Aaron Liu (talk) 08:29, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

No consensus to disregard Sheriff of London Charity Shield. Already previously discussed. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2022

Liverpool and Manchester United should be tied on 66 trophies. I request you to change that. 2A02:1388:95:E39C:B7E5:7871:D4B9:85CA (talk) 00:52, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

No consensus to disregard Sheriff of London Charity Shield. Already previously discussed. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:42, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Validity of the UEFA Intertoto Cup

I have observed that we have some inconsistency in the main table regarding the UEFA Intertoto Cup. While Newcastle have previously won this in 2006 and have that declared in the main table, Fulham also won it in 2002 but don't feature in the main table at all (although it is the only notable trophy Fulham have won, we need consistency). Yet, Fulham have this noted in the FIFA/UEFA table. Given the UEFA Intertoto Cup was a request competition (not invitational or by qualification), without a final and with multiple "winners", I don't really think we should be regarding it as a main "competitive honour", especially as there was never an exclusive winner each year. It's a bit of a misnomer and currently we're inconsistent in how its regarded. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:07, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

There is a mistake that Fulham are not listed in the main honours table, that can be quickly corrected, feel free to do it should you want to. Intertoto was a competitive FIFA competition, there is no reason to exclude it from this page, zero. Mountaincirque^talk 09:30, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I agree, no need for even more Wikipedia technicalities. Yourlocallordandsavior (talk) 23:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

I cannot think of one single written reference work on the planet that counts the Intertoto as a major honour. In English football, it's League, Cup, League Cup, Champs Lg, Europa Lg, their predecessors, and the latest three-tier Eurothing. Maybe the world club but even that is mostly seen as glorified friendlies. In Vitrio (talk) 11:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Top tier competitions

Although this is a good page, I am not a big fan of counting lower tier competitions.

For example, UEFA Cup and variants are not top tier.

I like this overall approach but I would also enjoy if we had top tier events only. So another table with:

World stage Europe Home

Those are the top tier events.

Remember they play UEFA Cup because they didn't qualify for champions league. 83.131.187.125 (talk) 19:09, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

The UEFA Cup is one of the most historic competitions. That it has become less valued in recent years due to changes in qualification does not change its significance. Most clubs still include it in any trophy tally, as do reliable sources when talking about clubs significant achievements. Koncorde (talk) 20:32, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Koncorde. The UEFA Cup is a historic trophy and winning the 'second-best' trophy across Europe is arguably a higher achievement that winning the 'second-best' national cup (League Cup in our case). The long term consensus here is to report every competitive honour open to top tier clubs, excluding only county/reserve honours. That prevents journalistic tendencies to divide into major/minor honours which is a massive quagmire. Mountaincirque^talk 13:59, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Anglo-Italian Cup/ Football World Championship

I notice that Tottenham are including winning the Anglo-Italian League Cup within Super Cups. This was a minor competition which was organised as a way of compensating Swindon for a ruling that prevented them competing in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1969. It was only contested 5 times.

My view is that if this competition counts alongside the Charity Shield as a Super Cup, that the Football World Championship, a match between the winners of the FA Cup and the Scottish Cup in the 19th Century, seen as the first international club competition, should also be included. This fixture was won by Aston Villa, Sunderland, Everton and Sheffield Utd.

I would be interested to hear people's views on this. Footballhistorian1985 (talk) 11:33, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

The opening two sentences of this article state: "This article lists English association football clubs whose men's sides have won competitive honours run by official governing bodies. Friendly competitions and matches organized between clubs are not included." That means that the AILC does qualify as it was a competitive trophy, organised/supported by governing bodies. The 'World Championship' matches were friendlies (called challenge matches often at the time) and were not organised by governing bodies as official 'super cups', they were usually part of tours by either English sides to Scotland or Scottish sides to England, the World Championship term was mainly used by the press and the sides themself to drive interest in the matches; on top of that there was no actual 'trophy' that was passed from one winner to another, it was more of a reputational or honorary passing of being 'the best side' that year . This can be compared to the inclusion of the Sheriff of London Charity Shield, the formal pre-cursor to the Charity Shield, which was formally organised and ratified by the FA each year, explicitly aiming to bring together the best pro and amateur sides together for a trophy match to see who was the best side and raise money for charity.

So I think it's quite clear that the Football World Championship matches shouldn't be included, as it would mean opening the floodgates to every friendly event such as the Premier League Asia Trophy or the Peace Cup. Mountaincirque^talk 12:31, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I accept your argument Mountaincirque, thank you for clarifying. Footballhistorian1985 (talk) 19:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Not a problem, if you do come across any competitions historically that do match the 'competitive' and 'national governing body' criteria then please do bring them to the Talk page here. Some honours have been added in the last few years that meet these criteria. Mountaincirque^talk 11:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Anglo-Italian Cup is not a super cup, as it was competed by more than two teams. It was a four team competition that is basically a tournament. Govvy (talk) 12:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Someone removed Corinthian F.C. from the summary table...?

I need to go back in the page history to work it but they need to be included as they won a few Sheriff of London Charity Shields. I think that they are meant to be on 3 honours. I've gone back through the last 500 edits and no one has left a removal reason containing the word 'Corinthian', so it seems to have been subtly removed at some point. Mountaincirque^talk 13:30, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

@Mountaincirque: Looks to have been the somewhat large edits by an IP editor in September just gone. I guess, given the regular conflicts experienced on this article, that anything and everything potentially controversial should be discussed first, and this is probably no exception. The article title stipulates this is a list of "competitive honours", so I don't see why those trophies were removed from mention. Bungle ^{(talk • contribs)} 18:32, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Charity Shield

This is not a domestic cup, it's a charity match. 73.223.148.180 (talk) 08:18, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

...I don't know what to say about this comment, it is organised by the Football Association and is the national equivalent of the supercups that many countries have, just that we have a tradition that funds raised go to communities/charities. This is a list of all competitive honours, which is qualifies for. Mountaincirque^talk 09:46, 26 February 2024 (UTC)