Talk:Lugger

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On fifies

There seems to be some confusion as to which sail of the fifie is a standing lug and which not. Despite the captions, both pictures show the main as the standing lugsail and the mizzen as the dipping one. I have therefore stored the note about the steam winch here pending discussion. [The extreme size of the dipping lugsail was only possible with the introduction of steam powered capstains to facilitate the dipping.](RJP 23:20, 26 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I've made some changes to the article, explainging that the foresail is the dipping lug and the aft sail the standing lug. I found this extract giving details of the method of dipping a Fifies forelug.

Methods of Dipping.

"Imagine tacking in a fresh breeze with those tremendous forelugs flogging about. First they were lowered down to deck, then unhooked from the traveller, hooked on the burton, swung aft and then for'ard on the other side of the mast, unhooked and rehooked on the traveller, and hoisted again. During this time the mast stood foursquare on its reputation. being completely unstayed until the halyards were unhooked to the weather side and the burton set up. Smart handling was essential, and even with the fall of the haylard taken to the capstan, it was heavy work, but hositing by hand was back-breaking, five to ten minutes' sweating to get the sail set and drawing properly for most of the old skippers were very particular about the cut and set of their sails." Sailing Drifter, Edgar J. March Chapter 12 (Fifies and Zulus), Page: 266

The fore sail is a dipping lug. The mizzen the standing lug.

On a Fifie the yard of the standing lug remains on the port side. As I believe they worked their nets from the starboard side, however I need to check this.

The Diagram is based on a plan of the "True Vine", Built in 1907 at St. Monance, Fifie. Length: 71' 1.5" Beam: 22' 6" Depth: 8" Tonnage: 53.

Fore mast LOA: 65' 6" Dia: 22' 9" Fore yard LOA: 31' 0" Dia: 8' 4"

Mizzen mast LOA: 55' 0" Dia: 15' 8" Mizzen yard LOA: 25' 6" Dia: 8' 4" Mizzen boom LOA: 28' 0" Dia: 9' 7"

Maybe the Fifie isn't the best example to use to illustrate a lugger?--PeterNisbet 03:12, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. On reflection, the mainsail could not be a standing lug with the tack bent to the stem-head as shown. On the port tack the forward part of the sail would be aback and acting as a brake. Tacking does seem to have been a bit of a performance. It leaves one wondering why they didn't have a main forestay and keep the luff of the sail close to the mast with the tack bent to the mast as with the mizzen. If they wanted to make work for themselves, they could have cut the throat back toward the mast so that they could peak the yard to dip it while someone unbent the tack each time they went about. As it was, they seem to have struck the sail. They certainly would not have got away with that on a less open coast. Imagine trying to beat up an Essex creek as the quotation describes.

As to whether the fifie is a good example; it gave rise to thought, therefore to greater understanding. What's wrong with that? :-)

I'll keep out of the way so that you are free to develop the article properly. (RJP 09:53, 27 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

What is a boat with a lugsail on a single mast called ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.186.216.80 (talk) 23:35, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Contentious points

In the section "Types of lugsail" there are several statements that I would challenge:

1) The standing lug is not always kept on one side of the mast, except for in small boats or on the tiny mizzens of 3-masted vessels. In the chasse-marées mentioned on this page with 2 masts usually set a standing lug on the aftermost mast to windward. This actually improved the performance of the sail because it benefitted more from the straight and rigid luff that resulted. Setting the sail to leeward as one would a dipping lug causes more belly in the sail and more bow in the mast. So, dipping lug forward set to leeward, standing lug aft set to windward. Coming about required both sails to be "dipped". See "Ar Vag", by Bernard Cadoret, Dominique Duviard, Jacques Guillet and Henry Kérisit; editions du Chasse-Marée 2003 pp. 106-107.

2) The second paragraph implies that while dipping lugs require a tack downhaul, standing lugs do not. In fact, all lugsails of every type big and small require a means of tensioning the luff and the most common means is by that of a downhaul on the tack. Some rigs omit this and rely on the halyard to tension the luff, but this is not as effective or versatile. In the case of the chasse-marées, the dipping lug forward (called the mizzen because the standing lug aft is the main) has no downhaul on the tack, and relies on the use of a stick called the marlink to stretch a line that runs the length of the luff. The standing lug main, however, has a tack downhaul. Again, see "Ar Vag", p. 59

It isn't called the mizzen. The French word for "mizzen" is "l'artimon". It is called "la misaine", meaning "the foresail" ("the foremast" is "le mât de misaine"). Beware of false friends. — Tonymec (talk) 22:52, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

3) Dipping lugs of huge proportions were in widespread use long before the appearance of the steam capstan.

You might also add a 3rd method for dipping the lug which is common in Scandinavia, but only in small boats: The tack is brought aft around the mast to the other side while the yard is dipped around by tugging on a lead line hanging from the forward end of the yard. This method does not require the halyard to be started, but only works in small craft because larger craft rely on the halyard for mast support, as it is belayed to the windward bulwark; using this method requires the halyard be made fast at the base of the mast, so the mast must be free-standing. I don't have a source for this other than my own experience sailing luggers in Scandinavia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjacallen (talk • contribs) 08:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name

There seems to be a mistake about French terminology. French voile aurique, gréement aurique mean a gaff sail, a gaff rig, respectively (i.e., a sail whose front side hangs from the mast). In a slightly wider sense, un gréement aurique can mean any fore-and-aft rig (including modern Marconi rigs, where the "gaff" is reduced to a metallic plate which is part of the triangular sail's top point). To mean a gaff sail but not a Marconi sail one would then say une voile à corne ("la corne" being "the gaff"). A lug sail is une voile au tiers (wfw. a one-third sail); similarly un gréement au tiers for a lug rig. — Tonymec (talk) 22:38, 14 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious description

"A Sailing Fifie, showing the main dipping lug and the mizzen standing lug. This picture of a Fifie more clearly shows the difference in the position of the tack (lower forward corner of the sail) as between a standing lug (here, the mizzen) and dipping lug (here, the main). These yards are shown set to the port sides of the masts.

The description here appears to be wrong. The dipping lug sail is on the mast to the left in the drawing, which is the mizzen-mast. The standing lug sail is on the mast to the right, which is the mainmast. The FRONT of this boat is on the right side of the picture. The thing which looks like a bowsprit is actually at the BACK in the this case. Look at the RUDDER.Eregli bob (talk) 21:57, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No - the picture and its description are correct. You are correct in pointing out that the left end of the picture is the stern of the vessel. However, you state "The dipping lug sail is on the mast to the left in the drawing" and "The standing lug sail is on the mast to the right", but it is the other way around. The left most (stern most - mizzen) is a standing lug, as the tack is attached to the mast. Zed Orkin (talk) 14:43, 3 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lug sail

There's now a separate page Lug sail for the sail/rig. This leaves Lugger for the small lug-rigged multi-masters. Topics like history of the vessel type, noteworthy specimen, and comparison of the vessels used in different countries could be added here. Mysha (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:30, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Single masted lugger

There is no cited source to state that a lugger has to have 2 or more masts. I now find that The Chatham Directory of Inshore Craft^[1] has at least one example of a traditional working vessel, with a single mast and called a "lugger". This example is the Emsworth Lugger. It can be found on pages 117-118 of this reference.

Therefore I have deleted any implication in the article that a lugger has to have 2 or more masts.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 18:50, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Greenhill, Basil; Mannering, Julian, eds. (1997). The Chatham Directory of Inshore Craft: Traditional Working Vessels of the British Isles. London: Chatham Publishing. ISBN 1 86176 029 9.

[Chatham_Directory-1] Greenhill, Basil; Mannering, Julian, eds. (1997). The Chatham Directory of Inshore Craft: Traditional Working Vessels of the British Isles. London: Chatham Publishing. ISBN 1 86176 029 9.

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