Talk:Marie Smallface Marule/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Reidgreg (talk · contribs) 16:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Review forthcoming. I made some minor copy edit to the article; feel free to revert anything you disagree with and we can discuss it as part of the review. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:33, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did a bit more copy edit, tidying of references and the endnote. I came across a lot of copyvio issues while checking the sources, and paraphrased as needed. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Criterion

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
GOCE copy edit in October 2019
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
~~Cleaned up a lot of close paraphrasing/copyvio.~~ done
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:
~~Requesting a second opinion for close paraphrasing of sources~~ completed with assistance from MrLinkinPark333

Review comments

Prose

There was a lot of close paraphrasing of sources, and in some cases material was lifted directly from sources. This was most apparent with the source "Crossen 2014".

Referencing & verifiability

I named the references to make discussion a little easier.

"ULObit"
- The subject worked for the University of Lethbridge, so this is a primary source. However, it is reliable and is only used for the positions and years she worked there, and the year of her birth, so nothing controversial.
- In 1983, Marule became an assistant professor of Native American studies in the area of politics and economic development. I see where the source says she became an assistant professor at U of L in 1983, but not that she was an assistant professor of Native American studies in politics and economic development. It doesn't seem to be in "HeraldObit" either.
  - Reading further, I added "MillerWomen" for this. Pages 3, 9 states that she was a faculty member in the Dept of Native American Studies, U of L, in 1987. On page 192, it says she was ass. prof of Native American studies at U of L for several years, in the field of politics and economic development.
Disinherited Generations (named "CarlsonDisinherited")
- The Google Books synopsis describes it as an "oral autobiography" and it seems to be told as a series of first-person accounts. Will assume that it was properly fact-checked. The parts used for the article are neutral and non-controversial. I added page numbers as I checked the source.
Women of the First Nations: Power, Wisdom, and Strength (named "MillerWomen")
- The subject is a contributor to this book of articles, so it's a primary source. It appears to be reliable, however, and is not used for anything controversial, so appears to be acceptable. (I edited the citation to include her as a "with ..." under authors.)
- I added |page=192 to the citation, as that's the page used for this reference. If you broaden the use of this reference, you may have to add additional page numbers.
- Marule helped plan the 1972 WCIP conference. She used her contacts in the Third World to convince Guyana to host the 1974 preparatory meeting for the conference in Georgetown. It doesn't make sense to have a preparatory meeting in 1974 if the conference is in 1972. The sources note that the conference was held in 1975 with planning beginning in 1972; I adjusted this accordingly.
"Crossen 2014"
- Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP, we should be cautious with theses and dissertations.
- Would it be possible to link to the dissertation itself, (namely, this)? done
Cusointernational.org is a primary source, but nothing controversial there.
Was unable to access the https://www.newspapers.com sources: Calgary Herald, Ottawa Journal, Saskatoon Star-Phoenix
~~There is no citation for her RCC successor, Roy Weasel Fat.~~ citation added

Media

The GA criteria say that every picture must have a caption, but I feel that can be waived in the case of an infobox image of the article subject where no further details of the image are known. However, if you can determine any details – the year of the photo, where it was taken or the photographer – then you could include that in a caption. (If you want to email the website and ask for attribution, that's always an option.) And you never know, some of the non-profits might release pictures to PD. Caption added.

Other areas to improve

Although not part of the GA criteria, here are some other areas you might want to improve:

Add |alt= text for the infobox image, perhaps Portrait photograph of a woman before a clapboard building done
It would be preferable to replace the primary sources with reliable secondary sources if such can be found.
Be mindful with the Death and legacy section, that it does not (a) read like a memorial, or (b) summarize her life's work (which is done in the lead). What it should be used for is to summarize the notable lasting effects of her work following her retirement and death. This might include the total number of graduates of the programs she developed, or if her programs influenced other indigenous colleges (if there are reliable secondary sources for notability of such information).
The infobox is supposed to list only the key facts about the subject, with a less-is-more approach (MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE). With that in mind, consider removing non-key facts, such as the mention of her non-notable children.

General discussion

@Thsmi002: I think the only unsourced statement is that her successor at RCC was Roy Weasel Fat. If you can't find a reliable source for that, the easiest thing would be to remove it (I don't especially like to see something like that which is only present in the infobox). – Reidgreg (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Reidgreg: Thank you so much for your review. I am thrilled that you have experience with Canadian topics. Per your suggestions, I sourced her successor, switched the thesis url to the PDF, added the |alt= text and img caption, and added (from a new source) a bit about the recent growth of a program she had initiated. I personally prefer to include the number (or hyperlink if they meet WP:N) of children when possible. The way I see it, being a parent is a substantial part of a person's life. I can see your point about keeping the infobox succinct, so I won't challenge if editors want it removed in this instance. In regards to the death and legacy section, do you think the mention of where/when her memorial was held should be deleted? TJMSmith (talk) 13:50, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Thsmi002: You're welcome! I happened to have written the biography of Rebecca Jamieson, who did similar work at Six Nations Polytechnic, so I hope that I'm competent in the treatment of the subject matter.

Thanks for sourcing Roy Weasel Fat. The rest doesn't affect the GA review. I think it's okay to briefly include the memorial service which took place on the reservation.

I'll hold on a second opinion at this point. – Reidgreg (talk) 15:01, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion request

I was unable to check the sources from https://www.newspapers.com – Calgary Herald, Ottawa Journal, Saskatoon Star-Phoenix. Due to the amount of close paraphrasing I came across with the other sources, I feel that it would be prudent for someone to check these. They're only used for small statements in one place each. – Reidgreg (talk) 13:02, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello! As I have access to Newspapers.com, I thought I'd review these three statements for the 2nd opinion request.

"In the Calgary Herald source, it says "Davis worked in Fort Macleod as a court interpreter." I think if "interpreter" was reworded in the Wikipedia article, this could pass limited wording. The part about Davis's quilts are in a separate paragraph above the Fort Macleod part, and looks fine.
"The sentences that cite the Ottawa Jorunal source do not pass Limited Wording. On one hand, "was one of seven children who were encouraged to attend school in Cardston" is almost exactly the same as the source apart from grammatical/spelling corrections. On the other hand "an Anglican Indian priest thought she would succeed" is similar in terms of the sentence structure with only the "thought she would succeed" used as a synonym. done
"Under the act, Indian women lost their legal tribal status as Indians upon marriage to a non-Indian" in Wikipedia looks very similar to the Saskatchewan Star-Phoenix source. In particular, this sentence has had words removed from the source in the "Under the act, Indian women lost their legal tribal status as Indians" part and added words at the "upon marriage to a non-Indian" part. Alternatively, the March 1972 sentence looks fine except for "Indian women married to non-Indians". As it's exactly the same in the first paragraph of the Star-Phoenix article, I suggest rewording this quoted part a bit to pass limited wording. done

@Reidgreg: Also, since these articles have been clipped on Newspapers.com, I think you can download them without needing a Newspapers.com account. I could be wrong. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:03, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I reworded some of Ottawa Journal and the Saskatchewan Star-Phoenix sections. I do not know what a court interpreter is. If there is a synonym, that's fine. Do you have any suggestions for rewording "Indian women married to non-Indians"? Perhaps the words, indigenous or Native could be used in this context. TJMSmith (talk) 18:37, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think that could work, as long as the sentence structure doesn't look identical. I think non-Indians would need to be reworded the most, but Native can work in this sentence as well. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:47, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A court interpreter provides translations between the primary language used in the legal proceeding and the preferred language(s) of participants, to ensure that they understand and can fully participate in the proceedings, which is a fundamental rule of justice. (That she held this position suggests she had high degree of fluency in multiple languages, could convey technical legal concepts, and was entrusted by all concerned.) How about: interpreter → translator?

done

For the "Indian women married to non-Indians", this is talking about the "marrying out rule" introduced in a 1951 amendment to the Indian Act, which remained in place until 1985. There's only so many ways to state that. (Carlson page 58 gives "If any woman married a non-Indian – and that could be a non-status or Metis man – she and her children and descendants would lose their treaty rights, including the right to live on a reserve." Also, https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/bill_c-31/ "Section 12(1)(b) removed status of any woman who married a non-Indian, including American Indians and non-status Aboriginal men in Canada.") Note that "Indian" and "status" carry a specific meaning under the definitions used in the Indian Act. How about: "Subject to the act, Indian women lost their tribal status if they married someone from outside their tribe." (Here is an additional source https://caid.ca/GraEnfAct1869.pdf "any Indian woman marrying an Indian of any other tribe, band or body shall cease to be a member of the tribe, band or body to which she formerly belonged, and become a member of the tribe, band or body of which her husband is a member, and the children, issue of this marriage, shall belong to their father's tribe only.") – Reidgreg (talk) 20:23, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the more thorough explanation on Canadian indigenous legal status. I tried rewording this and including hyperlinks to clarify some of the unique terminology. What are your thoughts? I was toying with the idea of combining the two sentences about Indian women marrying out of their tribe, but had trouble so I just kept both. TJMSmith (talk) 00:21, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant idea, wikilinking to the terms in case the reader wants a broader understanding. I added a citation to a government website (here, point 6). I think it's good now. @MrLinkinPark333: what do you think? – Reidgreg (talk) 13:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Reidgreg: I think it's better now. I would suggest a slight reword of "attended school in Cardston at the suggestion of an Anglican Indian priest." But, if you think this would fall under limited wording, then I think it'd be fine. --MrLinkinPark333 (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inferring what the original source was, and this is substantially different from what was in the article before. I'd probably have simplified it further, but it seems good enough for GA. – Reidgreg (talk) 21:08, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The original source was: “Born Marie Smallface on the Cranston Alberta Blood reserve she was one of seven children who was encouraged too attend school in Cardson. “I owe much to my parents and an Anglican Indian priest who thought I might do well,” she said."[1]. TJMSmith (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I'm good with that. Thanks for your assistance, MrLinkinPark333! Passing review! – Reidgreg (talk) 14:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.