Talk:Mather House

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved and protected from moving. Ronhjones ^(Talk) 20:01, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mather House (disambiguation) → Mather House — Requesting reverse of this rename as reason given in edit summary was invalid. In fact having multiple entries with name is enough to have dab page / one having an article already does not make it an obvious primary usage of the term. See MOS:DABRL. And now several other articles have been created. —doncram (talk) 05:59, 21 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The reason given in the edit summary was completely valid and in accordance with MOS:DAB in my opinion. There is now one other article using the same name -- Mather House (Convent, Louisiana), a stub -- but that could very easily be retitled Breaux-Mather House to disambiguate the title, and in any case the Harvard residence is the primary topic. Station1 (talk) 06:58, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I disagree with three things you assert. I think the edit summary-given reason was invalid. The Louisiana one's main name is Mather House, as indicated by the NRHP listing being at that name in the NRIS database, and, while a disambiguating phrase (Convent, Louisiana) can be added, the article should not be moved to a secondary name for the place that is given as a secondary name in the NRIS database. And the 1811 Louisiana location seems equally or more significant to me than the 1970 dormitory. Yes, the stub article does need more develoment. But I don't see that the harvard one is primary, and it is not located at the "Mather House" article name anyhow. Further, I am a bit put off by Station1's peremptory removal of other Mather House names from the current disambiguation page just now, too, which I just reversed. Station1, is there something else going on? The point here should be to help wikipedia readers find out whether the topics they are interested have articles or need articles, etc. doncram (talk) 14:20, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't be put off. I've cleaned up dozens of dab pages and didn't treat this one any differently. It needs cleaning up whether or not it's moved, so is really mostly a separate issue from this renaming request. I would modify your last point slightly: The point here, or of any dab page, should be to help readers navigate to the ambiguously-named article they are most likely to be looking for most easily. I understand the 1811 house is equally significant to you, as you say, but in this case, looking at some of the objective criteria suggested at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC such as pageviews and Google hits, it looks like very roughly ten times as many readers are likely to be looking for the Harvard residence hall (estimate based on 1300+ avg pageviews per month, compared with 100-200 or fewer for articles similar to the 1811 house), so to benefit the large majority of readers that article, the primary topic, should take the title Mather House, with a hatnote for those few landing there inadvertently and looking for something else. Station1 (talk) 06:27, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All the various "Mather House"s are fairly obscure, and there is no reason to prioritise one over all the others. Also, keeping the disambiguation page as the primary topic allows easy detection of links needing disambiguation, and easy correction of them use WP:POPUPS. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:15, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Clearly there is no primary use. After the move, move protect the main name space page. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:45, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mather House and Mather Homestead

This page was built to cover disambiguation of places named Mather House and Mather Homestead. One editor has been removing the Mather Homestead information. That seems unhelpful to readers who don't know if a house is formally called Home, Hall, House, Homestead, Farmstead, whatever. It seems reasonable to keep them together. There is a place formally named Homestead, which deserves mention here. Station1, please don't remove that without securing some broader consensus. I don't think you're helping to build the wikipedia by trying to remove the mention of the one place on a disambiguation page. It just hurts readers and editors and is going to cost attention of a lot of people eventually, i am afraid. --doncram (talk) 20:46, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you're referring to Stephen Tyng Mather Home, also known as the Mather Homestead. It was not removed. It was and continues to be on the page. I only changed it from a redirect to the article's actual name. I now moved it up from the See Also section in case that is your concern. Station1 (talk) 06:27, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. You removed Mather Homestead (Hartford, Connecticut), which is a different place. It is listed on the National Register of Historic Places and is notable. Are you being coy, removing redlink items? In response to your pressure, there is a bot being programmed to fix the redlink ones up better. But they must remain on the page, to be fixed. And apparently you removed others. There were 10, now there are 6. I will restore the previous version. Please discuss each item here before you remove any one. --doncram (talk) 12:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if my tone above is abrupt. I guess it is reasonable to wonder if the two places named Mather Homestead in Connecticut are same or different. But exploring that by removing one from the dab page doesn't seem right. They are different places, in different towns, even different counties, perhaps not obvious if u are not familiar with locations of Darien and Hartford. I further fixed up the supporting bluelinks using the method of clicking on redlinks and checking "what links here". Hope this is done now. Also, by the way, have 2 wp:bot requests outstanding now relating to NRHP disambiguation. --doncram (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I and others have explained to you at great length on your talk page and elsewhere why redlinks with no valid corresponding bluelink are removed; there's nothing coy about it. There's no pressure from me, but when you purposely add redlinks that lead nowhere to dab pages, as you admit you do and as you did here, you can expect them to be reverted. Since you've now fixed them here, there's no reason to remove anything else. I'll make some order and format changes iaw MOS:DAB and hope we're done here. Station1 (talk) 19:14, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, just to clarify then, your objection was that the items had redlinks but their supporting bluelinks pointed to state-wide NRHP list-articles, rather than more specifically to county- or city-wide NRHP list-articles that have been split out in some states. I don't think it is appropriate for you to remove such redlinks. You can note in some way that they are not in technical compliance with the current version of MOSDAB guidelines, but your removal of such items damages the wikipedia. One complication is that it removes those items from the scope of a bot being developed that would fix the items to be exactly as you wish. Are we going to have further problems this way? If so, then i would not be happy about it but will proceed to call for wider attention to the issue of your behavior here. I would not be happy about it because I am sure my tone/behavior in defending these dabs would be criticized also. But, I have come a long way to respond to your concerns even though I do not agree with them. And, I do not believe consensus would be for destruction of these items, when wp:SOFIXIT applies so clearly. --doncram (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You purposely put redlinked entries on a dab page with bluelinks that made no mention of the topic. I fixed it. Station1 (talk) 20:38, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I started this dab in February 2009. I believe at that time it was fully in compliance with the letter of MOSDAB, which then specified that redlinks were allowed if they would check out by a procedure of clicking on redlink and looking at "what links here". Not sure if/when MOSDAB has been changed permanently on that. Not sure whether or not the bluelinks to statewide list articles then were perfectly compliance with recent practice in dab pages developed by dab editors, in terms of whether those bluelinks showed the same redlink. Many county NRHP list-articles have been split out since then, so some may have been rendered imperfect, later.

Okay, so now I see you have made several edits to remove the utility of this dab page as covering both places named "Mather House" and "Mather Homestead" (which redirects here), including one place named both. There are two places named Mather Homestead and a larger number named Mather House. Specifically you have again removed bolded mention at the top that it is covering both variations. And, you're fighting for an order of listings in the dab which is non-intuitive, IMO. MOSDAB specifically allows for other orderings which make sense, and geographic ordering of several similar dab pages has been confirmed by consensus of many editors in previous discussions. --doncram (talk) 17:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from the first sentence, you are mistaken. Station1 (talk) 00:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]