Talk:Mazanderani people

Untitled

Scholars also include Iranian language speakers such as Talysh, Gilak, Lurs, Mazandaranis and speakers of Central Iranian languages in Iran under the term Persian.[32] ^ a b c d e f g C.S. Coon, "Iran:Demography and Ethnography" in Encycloapedia of Islam, Volme IV, E.J. Brill, pp 10,8. Excerpt: "The Lurs speak an aberrant form of Archaic Persian" See maps also on page 10 for distribution of Persian languages and dialect ^ a b c Kathryn M. Coughlin, "Muslim cultures today: a reference guide," Greenwood Publishing Group, 2006. pg 89: "...Iranians speak Persian or a Persian dialect such as Gilaki or Mazandarani"

Mazandaranis are part of a persian sub-group and speak a persian dialect related to middle Persian (Pahlavi)

Okay first of all, I'm myself half Mazandarani, born and rasied in Mazandaran, and I know for a fact that Mazandaranis consider theirself as part of the persian people. Even the shah of Iran was from Mazandaran and considered himself a true Persian and Persian nationalist.

mazandarani isn't arabic or related to any other languages, other than persian (60-70%). Mazandarani is mainly driven from persian languages like pahlavi (Middle Persian). second, Mazandaranis are aryan/Iranic. And finally, third, the shah of iran was from mazandaran and a true persian nationalist. lurs,tats, mazandaranis, tylish, gilakis are all persian culturally, in temrs of bloodline, mentally, mostly in language (60 to 70% of words in Mazandarani are of old Persian origin), and most important thing of all is that they consider theirself as a part of the Persian people and nation. This division is just crap. even many websites, some of the new ones released by cia fact books state Mazandarani, Gilakis, lurs, and Bakhterians as persian sub-groups.

Are you a linguist? Let me guess. Not. And even if you are, what you're saying about languages seriously contradicts with what the majority of linguists think.

In terms of linguistics, you're messing up the Persian sub-group with the Western Iranian group.

I don't know for sure what you mean by "related to middle Persian (Pahlavi)". If "related" means that Mazandarani has SOME influence from Pahlavi, than yes, but it also has not less influence from some other languages. However, Mazandarani is in no way a DESCENDANT of Pahlavi (in other words, Pahlavi is not Mazandarani's MAIN ancestor).

What do you mean by "Mazandaranis consider theirself as part of the persian people"? If you mean that they live in Iran, that was called "Persia" abroad until 1935, than this is justified. If they consider themselves to be Persian ETHNICALLY, then it is just the way they call the Western Iranian group of languages. It does in no way affect the fact that they in no way belong to the ethnicity that in English language is called "Persian".

What do you mean by "in temrs of bloodline"? Do you mean that most of the ancestors of Mazandaranis came from Fars province inside the last 1800 years? It doesn't look like it. Check DNA data. They are quite different. There is nothing to say that, for instance, Mazandaranis are close to Persians, but different from Azerbaijanis, Turkmens or Kurds. СЛУЖБА (talk) 04:27, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Older revision

This article is required to revertion to it's older edition, Since the user Bahram removed some of it's information --Ali 15:31, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Language of Mazandaran

Urban population of Mazandaran as well as a significant fraction of Rural population are native speakers of Persian language. Mazandarani is considered a second language for many Mazandaranis and they don't use it for professional life. Sangak 20:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but just try to change the article to acknowledge this fact. Certain users insist on putting "Mazandarani" first; it seems to be some sort of minority activism. But see [1], which definitely describes Mazandarani as a secondary language. Mazandarani language lost ground to Persian over the centuries, and at this point is spoken less than Persian in the province. The Behnam 00:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Whether it is the first or second doesn't matter, please don't make a big deal from this. Mazandarani is alive and should be kept alive, not only because it is the dialect/language of a part of Iranians, but also since it is a backup for Persian. We, Iranians should be proud of it.

Bravo! But current political status of iran is complexer than attending to the divisions of iranians and their language and ethnic, Culture & music ... I believe we could have the chance to feeling the post-modernism, the time for respecting local culture and architecture --Parthava (talk) 13:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Genetics in the infobox

While Ali seems to object to listing Persian, the linked genetics document [2] actually lists their genetics relationships as such (from page one), in order of closest genetics:

1. To each other and to other Iranian groups,
2. To Caucasian people,
3. Europeans,
4. Central Asians

If you really object to the inclusion of Persians we can simply write Iranian peoples in the infobox. I propose ordering them by closeness in the infobox to look something like "Gilaki and other Iranian peoples, Caucasian people". The Behnam 06:17, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, first of all, №1 is not "To each other and to other Iranian groups", but rather "To each other and to other Iranian and West Asian groups".

Second, and most important, is that you for some reason list only the mtDNA relationships. However, the paper clearly states that "However, their Y chromosome types most closely resemble those found in groups from the South Caucasus." In fact, if you look at Figure 2B, you'll see that on Y-DNA the Mazandaranis are most close to Azerbaijanians, Syrians, Armenians and Georgians. СЛУЖБА (talk) 00:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

There is no question that Mazandaranis are related, very related, to Persians. But in order to avoid listing too many things and arguing over the order of their inclusion, I think it is best to just say "other Iranian peoples", which is correct and simple. Shervink 11:41, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is question either, but apparently that's nonsense. So I'll change it to the Iranian peoples form and hopefully everyone will be happy. Ali, if there is still an issue with this, please speak up. Thanks. The Behnam 16:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I forgot to including Iranians, but where is zazas ? --Ali 07:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

According to Zaza, the Zazas are also an Iranian peoples, so they are an implicit member of the list because of the listing of "Iranian peoples". Is there some reason that they should be explicitly listed? The Behnam 19:19, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I found their language resembles our language, i am sure that we share some common cultures and maybe they are our cousins --Ali 06:36, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Mazandaranis were one of the most ancient native people of iran, whom were have known and known as people who never loose their iranian culture, not aryan, but iranian, a culture of region which then aryans adopted it, Also Lurs are our nearest cousins than persian, since i found many similarities whitin our lamguages, Yeah, if aryans were camed during 4-8 millinium years ago, Mazandaranis were living there for the longest time among other iranians, See also genetic information in External links section, Also see iranian legends such as Shahnama and many avestan references (not avestan language, but books reterevied from them) --Ali 17:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

mazandarani isnt arabic you idiots its 60% persian driven from persian languages like pahlavi. and mazandaranis are aryan. the shah of iran was from mazandaran and a true persian nationalist. lurs,tatis,mazandaranisz,tylish,gilakis are all persian culturally blodline in behaviour and mostly in language.this division is just crap. even many websites even some of the new released cia fact books state mazandarani/gilakis/lurs/and bakhterians as persian groups. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.255.27.157 (talk) 22:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mazandarani_people#Mazandaranis_are_part_of_a_persian_sub-group_and_speak_a_persian_dialect_related_to_middle_Persian_.28Pahlavi.29 СЛУЖБА (talk) 00:21, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Some discussions here are with the presumption that: everybody who speaks Persian as the mother tongue is necessarily "Persian". That is wrong. They are simply Iranian people who left their other Iranian dialect/language and accepted Dari Persian as their mother tongue. They are "Pârsi-zabân" (one who speaks Persian) and not necessarily "Persian". Some of those previous dialects/languages are still existent although some in the verge of disappearance, including some dialects in Esfahan and Fars province like Davâni and Iranian languages/dialects of Jews in Iran. The last means that you can track the original language of presently Persian-Speaking people in the Iranian languages of Jews.

Interesting subject, on history of Georgian people in Mazandaran region. It would be great to see some sources on this, so I added a fact tag. Atabek (talk) 23:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

References

I tried to find reliable references for this article. However, I do not find any reference for two issues

• Mazandarani is spoken in Gilan, Golestan, Semnan, and Tehran provinces.
• It is less influences by non-Iranian languages compare to other Iranian languages.

For the time being I keep them. However, I added the citation tag on them. Please improve the article if you know reliable references for these information. I may remove unsourced material if the tags remain for a long time--Larno Man (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, Finally I found some good sources and added them--Larno Man (talk) 05:03, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

In Any case it is spoken in Golestan. Golestan has been previously part of Mazandaran.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 05:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It might be true, but I was looking for a reference. Anyway, I re-wrote this part based on sources that I found.--Larno Man (talk) 05:43, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Population

Statoids.org http://www.statoids.com/uir.html gives this information on the population of these provinces (based on the 2006 Iranian census:

• Golestan IR.GO 27 gs IR37 1,617,087
• Mazandaran IR.MN 21 mz IR35 2,920,657

Almost All permanent population of Mazandaran is Mazandarani, and at least (if not more) 2/3 of Golestan is Mazandarani. there live also Mazandarani elsewhere in Iran, notably in big cities such as Tehran.

the totall number would be near 4 million (not counted those elsewhere in Iran).

--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:37, 8 May 2008 (UTC) I agree that this looks like original research (not really), but in the country in which there is no ethnic censuses, this methods gives the most reliable results.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 07:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Population is more than just 4 million

in the current west mazanderan province and east gilan province no one could distinguish the gilakis and mazanderanis, Also we never counted the people immigrated to another part of world, when i was in germany, i wondered how many mazanderanis are there, Also many of cities around iran, Tehran's major and original people are also mazanderani (doesn't counted) --Parthava (talk) 12:10, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That is what I said, more than 4 million. But we do not know how many more.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 13:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I checked three other references and they estimated the population of Mazandarani People 1.5-3.5 million.

I also draw your attention to couple of issues.

• Large proportion of Golestan population is Turkmen, Persian, and Turk
• Many Persians live in Mazandaran as well as Gilaki people who dominant some western parts of Mazandaran province

Therefor, I think you overestimated the population. Unless you provide references on proportion of Mazandarani people in Golestan :and Mazandaran your estimation is very rough. --Larno Man (talk) 13:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Turkmens in Golestan are some half Millions. Persians are those migrants from elsewhere. There are also Kurds and Baluchi migrants as well as kazakhs, but all are small numbers. In West mazandaran and east Gilan they are Deylami. In mazandaran itself many ethnic groups such as Kurds, Georgians, Afghans (no migrants) who live there for generation, are assimilated into mazandarani. Then the mountaineous part of Semnan and some mountainoeus parts of tehran speak mazandarani too. 1.5 is too few, 3.5 is closer to the reality but if we take the upper limits for all ethnic groups, then we should be consistent and take that also for mazandarani. 4 Million seems accurate--Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

All of the estimations by any site about population are unreliable, Also deylamits are not living in the coastal region as you remarked, Other ethnics could be clearly distinguished, simply since those afghans, georgians and persians in mazanderani have no brighten skins, So they didn't assimilated though they speak mazanderani. --Parthava (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Many Kurds and Georgians were fairskinned. They are assimilated. Only Turkmens did not assimilate, because they are in rather large numbers and are sunni. BTW: were do the deylamis live according to you?--Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

numbers of georgians who migrated to mazandaran

Larno Man asked:

"Also, Babak provide more information. Give me a number on Georgians who migrated to Mazandaran? Is it a notable number?"

I should check the sources fro the exact number. I remember one source said that a European traveller spoke of 12000 Georgians in Farah Abad. In total some 200000 Georgians were displaced and abig share of them were replaced in mazandaran. It was a notable number, especially in the 17th century.

See also http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.pdf. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

sorry it spoke of 12000 families--Babakexorramdin (talk) 15:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

12000 !!!!!! Even the population of the city of sari in about 150 years ago was not more than 20,000 people, Shiraz at the time of zand dynasty had not more than 35,000 residents, Also because of Nasidze is georgian name and mazanderanis are caucasian, (or people in caucasia are mazanderani-originated) has nothing to do with this issue. Today gorji towns have no more than 4-5 thousand peoples (the largest one in behshahr has no more than 5,000 people in about 1000 families, Although census about cities are wrong but i think it is correct about villages), Also many of farah-abadis were killed due to russian attacks --Parthava (talk) 16:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

this is why there is a big question mark behind 12000 Georgian families in farah Abad. probably the traveller meant Mazandaran in general, or he had counted 12000 Georgian males, and has thought that they all have families. 12000 in the 17th century was indeed a big number. In AlamAra is written that once 3000 famlies left Georgia for Mazandaran. Iranian And Georgian sources agree with each other that the number of georgian migrants to Iran were about 200000 in the 17th century. A lot of them if not most went to mazandaran. Nasidze is Georgian, but also Germans and Iranians particpated in that research. Just go to the link and you see it. Finally I should add it that most of these Georgians were assimilated. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 20:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Last version was messy, and i revert them all, it lost it's style --Parthava (talk) 04:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss your points

Please do not revert the whole article which is the result of hours of studies over scholarly books and journal papers. If you have problems with some parts please discuss your points instead of reverting the whole article. In such cases, please state why information from that specific reference shouldn't be used. If you feel the reference is not reliable state your reasons. Otherwise, sourced information should not be deleted.--Larno Man (talk) 04:11, 7 July 2008 (UTC) i want to know the history of mazhandrani, where people of mazhandran migrate to near by countries like pakistan etc. i am pakistani, still we group of people have common name mazhandranii, becuase it is belived that we migrated from mazhandran in very past year. i want to know why people of mazhadran migrated : Aftab mazhandrai, chitral pakistan

File:Iranian people.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Iranian people.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 20 March 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Iranian people.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 20:18, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Amount of assimilated/settled Circassians, Armenians and Georgians

While we already have a section about assimilated Georgians, I think we should mention the amount of assimilated and/or settled Armenian and Circassian peoples as well. Iranica-online has some good information about the Circassians in Persia.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/carkas-cherkes-term-used-in-persian-arabic-and-turkic-for-the-circassian-people-of-the-northwest-caucasus-who-call-thems LouisAragon (talk) 18:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Genetics — Haplogroups. Y-HG IJ*

The Haplogroup I-M170 page, referring to a reference () claims this population, along with Persian Fars, is the only discovered instance of turning up individuals belonging to Y-chromosome haplogroup IJ*, which is the precursor and common ancestor to the common European HG "I", and the frequently middle eastern HG "J". (well the MRCA to IJ being from whence both groups are descended, not the (*) asterisk indicating parallel clades, but is nontheless presumably the only discovered population to be an offshoot from which neither population bottleneck had yet formed from I and J, but of a branch preceding those haplogroups breaking into their distinct lineages) The reference to the haplogroup section here doesn't mention this being the only population where IJ* can be found at all, perhaps someone could remedy this or correct the HG I-170 Y-DNA page if this is no longer the case. Nagelfar (talk) 05:14, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

References

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Mazandarani people.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Religion in the infobox

So there are nine sources(!) in the infobox about religion—all of them supporting Satanism as a minority religion. I have concerns about whether this is representative, as the stories could be somewhat sensational, and not all the sources mention Mazanderani people. Further, even though Sunni Islam and Baha'i are likely practiced, they are unsourced. I'd like input on which of these two approaches to take with the religion section of the infobox:

1. Remove it entirely. Shia Islam is addressed in the body of the text.
2. Pare it down to only list Shia Islam with a note that it's the majority religion.

Frankly, I'm leaning toward #1, as it will avoid future issues like this where sources are cherry-picked to boost a particular minority religion into the infobox. —C.Fred (talk) 02:20, 12 October 2023 (UTC)