Talk:Meir Kahane/Archive 1

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Why was Kach labeled a terrorist organization?

The question is, Why was Kach labeled a terrorist organization? I don't know. And you don't know. Now, let's look at [1] at the bottom of the page, under "Terrorist Activity". One of the things there is protests against the Israeli government. Another is *threatening* to attack Arabs. And finally we have a shooting eight years ago for which they claimed responsibility. ([2] does not even mention this shooting.) Sure sounds like a terrorist organization to me! And of course, this is an article about Kahane. He never praised Goldstein.

"Terrorist activities of Kach include praising Baruch Goldstein for murdering Palestinian civilians. [3] [4]"

Well, no. It's not a terrorist act to praise someone for murder, though it is both callous and damndably stupid. "Notorious" might be the adjective you're looking for. Also, who/what is "Kach"? Any explanation of that? a link to him/her/it perhaps? a short description? --Koyaanis Qatsi

I wonder how Kahane who was killed in 1990 could praise the act of Goldstein 4 years later? I wish people could stick to the facts and not do name-calling. --Uriyan
Well, not Kahane, but Kach perhaps, I'm not sure. KQ, Kach means "thus", "this way" in Hebrew and is the movement/party organised by Kahane. --AV

I might be mistaken here, but I believe it was the Israeli government that described Kach as a terrorist group. I'm not exactly sure what they did to get this title, but I think that praising Goldstein was one thing. Some other editor had stated that its terrorist activities were "protesting against the Israeli government", which sounds to me to be just pro-Kach apologetics. I looked for what they did to get called that by the Israeli government, and praising Goldstein was the only thing I could find. -- SJK

I'd like to know more about any terrorist activities by Kach in Israel. However, attacks in the United States by the JDL cannot be denied (such as the murder of Alex Odeh). I've modified the page mentioning Kahane's belief in the genocidal nature of the Palestinians. -- GCarty

In 1994 the Anti-Defamation League put out a booklet entitled "Extremism in the Name of Religion: The Violent Legacy of Meir Kahane." They provide at the end of that publication two chronologies, for Israel and the U.S., respectively, of violent actions committed by Kahane or his followers. Each instance is sourced with references. There are seventeen instances in the Israeli chronology up to Kahane's death, and another twelve from then until early 1994. These include numerous acts of arson, conspiracy to blow up the Muslim monuments on the Temple Mount, a long list of acts of physical violence against Arabs and Christian missionaries, rioting, inciting riots, assaulting police officers, disturbing the peace, and a number of bombings. For instance: 3.3.1973, ten Kach members are tried for setting fire to the International Center for Holy Scriptures in Jerusalem; 6.12.1972, two Kach women convicted of setting fire to Christian missions; 10.25.1982, government declares Kach posters praising the Sabra and Shatile refugee camp massacres illegal; 8.28.1991, two Kach members are arrested after illegally entering Petah Tikva prison, armed with submachine guns, in an attempt to assassinate two Palestinian representatives undergoing questioning there for suspected PLO links; 4.14.1992, two Kach members are arrested for attempting to assault Yitzhak Rabin and assaulting a police officer. The list goes on and on. The chronology of violent acts in the US lists one hundred and forty (140) incidents up to the time of Kahane's death, and four after that. These are of course two numerous to list, but they include a wide spectrum of terrorist activity, ranging from property-vandalism to murder. Masarra 17:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

The Word "Claimed"

Should we be using the word claimed when talking about his views on palestinian origin? These opinions no mattter what you think of them are based on solid facts. There are many reputable sources of information when it comes to this issue (including quotes from prominant Arabs associated with the conflict).

Anon, typically the word "claimed" is necessary if politicians make very uncommon or surprising claims. Such a claim may be taking one real aspect to an extreme. In this case there is some factual basis to the theory, although it has a strong political bias and little or no scientific merrit as such. Yet since there is some factual basis, there will be plenty of quotes to bring forwarded. Next, especially the references of the "enemies" will increase the trustworthiness of the theory with the supporters. gidonb 03:16, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Kahane and sex

It is already impossible for a Jew and a non-Jew to marry in Israel, though they may get a civil marriage in Cyprus, and get it recognized in Israel: in other words, they can be married, but they cannot get married. The Orthodox rabbinate has a monopoly over Jewish weddings, and there is no civil marriage.

What made Kahane's position truly a departure from current reality is that he proposed the criminalization of all sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews. (I seem to remember that he actually proposed the death penalty by stoning for this "crime", but we should wait until we find a source before we mention that in the article.) Hasdrubal 29 June 2005 22:12 (UTC)

You're memory serves you wrong. It would help to read some of his literature and hear some of his various interviews, debates, etc. that he had in the United States. Research certainly helps. I'd suggest reading "Uncomfortable Questions For Comfortable Jews" which was written while he was a Knesset member. -- 23:56, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

This article

Could this article be any more of a fan letter? Kahane was a goddamned racist theocrat. Perhaps the article could briefly touch on what a hate-driven, twisted little warmonger he was.

  • Hey, you sound pretty hateful yourself! Having a bad hair day, or are you just a "little" anti-semite"? Hard to tell since you haven't signed your hissing comments with the required Wikipedia user name or with the tildes ~~~~ and remember, for all of Kahane's heated talk, which never amounted to anything in any case in terms of reality, it was he himslef who was the victim of real life Arab terrorism and paid for it with his life. So shame on you! IZAK 21:46, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
    • An "anti-Semite" for denouncing a racist, authoritarian theocrat? Rubbish. Shem(talk) 00:05, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Shem: Anyone who uses cuss-words such as "goddamned racist theocrat" deserves a very sharp rejoinder. Who appointed you "godfather" of the Meir Kahane subject etc? From what I can tell you are on a vendetta against a dead man (Kahane) for no better reason than you dislike (hate is a better word) his opinions that MANY others in Israel shared and still do share. By the way, I am not one of them, which may come as a surprise to you. Jews are often used to expressing themselves strongly, no matter what they believe, and you do not seem to grasp this. Kindly do not edit my responses to anonymous cowardly "editors" who are afraid to sign their names. For all you know, it was an outright Nazi writing those words and you are defending him. Have you no sense man? IZAK 06:16, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
        • "MANY" people on Earth also share the opinions of Osama bin Laden and Adolf Hitler, if that's your only defense now, that "MANY" people agree with Kahanism; your attacks are becoming pathetic, IZAK. You pretend to be the arbiter of Judaism, spokesman for the Jews, and call anyone "anti-Semite" who disagrees with you. Kahane was both a racist and a theocrat; that your false allegations (now he's a Nazi?) are more difficult to hold up when faced with dissenting Jews is what seems to anger you so much. I will remove your personal attacks on-sight, whether you like being called on them or not. Shem(talk) 06:41, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Sure, Kahane was just like "Hitler" or "Osama", how "brilliant"!...and Arafat and Saddam were just hidden Santa's handing out "goodies" to the Jews. Tell me, for all his rhetoric in the name of Judaism, how many people did Kahane kill or have been killed in his name exactly? Shem, if you have nothing better to do than to edit my comments in TALK pages, good luck, it makes no difference in any case. But one thing though, I do not appreciate YOUR personal attacks against me which are growing in vehemance and which I will call you on. Sorry that the truth hurts you so much old boy, but that's just the way it is. I cannot waste all this time on you in any case, honestly. IZAK 03:18, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
        • I said nothing of Arafat or Saddam; keep your twisted straw man arguments to yourself, really. It's rather gratifying, really, watching you accuse me of "rhetoric" and "vendetta" for pointing out the obvious tactics you've used against those who disagree with you. What'll it be, IZAK? Will you continue to trivialize all Jews through your flippant (and frequent) invocation of anti-Semitism? I've restored your comments, actually, and plan on leaving them up; let your trite use of Jews (even against other Jews) stay on public record, to be clearly seen by others. Shem(talk) 07:58, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Yaaaawn!!! G'nite mate, I must catch some shut-eye, if you need something to do if you're bored, here are some marbles to play with. Don't put them in your mouth now, you know that don't you? Cheers! Tata, toodledoo, bye for now ..... IZAK 13:42, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Mid-December revisions

Over the past few days, there have been some interesting changes made to the article by anon contributors (apparently Kahane sympathizers, but making an effort towards NPOV.) IMO, these changes are not vandalism, but provide a minority viewpoint which the article was previously lacking- a description of Kahane's methods and goals, as seen through the eyes of his supporters.Rearden Metal 18:42, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

A note to Kahanist editors: If you wish to better clarify Kahane's beliefs from a factual and non-emotional standpoint, you have every right to do so. However, any hyperbolic revisions such as "non-stop rape , murder and abuse of Jewish people nationwide" will be promptly reverted by the Wikipedia community. If you want your revisions to 'stick' for longer than five minutes, simply learn to do it correctly.Rearden Metal 00:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

RV speculation/POV on Arafat's motives

NPOV means stating facts, not specuating on motivation. Fact: In 2000, Arafat led his people in a violent uprising against the Jewish State.

Speculation/POV (Not acceptable for Wikipedia): In 2000, Arafat led his people in a violent uprising against Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

The second version is not a fact at all. Is 'Israeli policy towards the Palestinians' the root cause of Arafat's violence? Maybe, maybe not. Why did Arafat's PLO launch a campaign of violence (civil war) against the Maronites in Lebanon? What about his violence against the Jordanian government? Was 'Israel's policy towards the Palestinians' to blame for these examples of PLO belligerence? Please state known facts, and leave personal opinions & speculations aside. Rearden Metal 22:39, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Your version is just as much an opinion. There is also a worse problem with that section, namely it should make clear that Kach was just (or even more) opposed to Barak's "generous offer" than Arafat was. At the moment it sounds like the opposite. --Zero 23:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, good point. Kahanist opposition to the Oslo accords & subsequent negotiation process should certainly be added to the article. Rearden Metal 04:31, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Please change the term "freedom fighters" for the arab terrorists that killed his son and his wife in civilian life

at the end the death of kahane's son and his wife is described. There it states "Palestinian freedom fighters machine-gunned their van with more than 60 rounds." I demand the word "freedom fighters" to be exchanged, it is not neutral. Please call it what it is: terrorism, since it aims to kill civilian. In case this would be not "neutral enough" for this side (although it is the trutg), call it gunman, but "freedom fithers" is really to much and should be changed! thanks

Error in "Israel" section

I was just wondering whether the following excerpt from "Israel" section was correct:

"An important catalogue of press clippings extending over 30 years and classified according to more than 120 topics (politics, culture, religions, art, people etc) was purchased from he family and donated to the "Library for the History of Zionism" at Bar Ilan University, Ramat Gan."

IMO it should be changed from "he family" to "his family", although in some contexts "the family" would also be appropriate.

What is your opinion? --Volphy 16:30, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

You're right: The grammar is bad, and I doubt many people were breathlessly awaiting the fate of the Rabbi's newspaper clipping collection... so I made it vanish. Rearden Metal 04:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder about other thing... the article says: Meanwhile the JDL in the U.S. continued to branch out into terrorist activities, including the bombing of several buildings; the harassment, stalking and, sometimes, murder of prominent political and intellectual opponents of the JDL; and the coordination of JDL activities with the Israeli Mossad (headed in the early '70's by Yitzhak Shamir). - First, while Shamir "held senior positions" in the Mossad, "headed" is not the right word and anyway he left the organization in mid-1960s. Second, I wonder if there is any proof of "coordination of JDL activities with Mossad" and if the answer is positive if there is any reliable information about the nature of the "coordinations". Third, current phrasing creates an impression that Mossad and Shamir have something to do with the aforementioned terrorist activities by the JDL. That's hardly NPOV. Bukvoed 10:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I think you are right to be concerned about that. I deleted it. If someone wants to support it, they can come back with a citation. Not Ostrovsky by any chance? --Zero 11:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleted section

I deleted this section because I thought it was irrelevant to an article about Kahane:

Other controversial assassinations of Jewish leaders in Israel's history

Meir Kahane's assassination was neither the first nor the last time that a Jewish leader would be shot in the midst of political controversies and upheavels during the history before and after the establishment of the State of Israel:

-- 22:28, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this section is irrelevant. A link to another page that has such a list would be ok. Btw, thanks for the badly needed copy-editting. Am I right in thinking that you didn't change the content? --Zero 02:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

"Paramilitary": I am uneasy about the use of this word in the article. I always thought that "paramilitary" refered to groups organised like armies, such as private militias. Is that wrong? (Don't put back "terrorist" though, that would be worse.) --Zero 02:18, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Obadiah Shoher

Could anyone please point out to the source of information about Shoher's group? His spam makes circles on the internet, but I found no evidence of followers. It looks like he is just promoting his book. Quick search shows associations with some Alex Hertz from Jerusalem who seems too young to be an "experienced politician". Galilite 00:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

catagory: Israeli criminals

Why is Meir Kahane in the catagory Israeli criminals? what did he do that was illegal? Futhermore isn't this catagory for people who are known because they are criminals like Mordechai Vanunu and Yigal Amir? Jon513 13:24, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Agreed! I have removed the "criminal" categories. It seems that if someone disagrees with Kahane it makes Kahane a "criminal". What "crime/s" is he guilty of exactly? IZAK 11:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Was he not convicted of some felony at some point? I seem to recollect... - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 14:45, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
      • Disorderly conduct and other misdemeanors [5] - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 14:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
      • "February 8, 1975: Rabbi Kahane was accused of having conspired to kidnap a Soviet diplomat, to bomb the Iraqi Embassy in Washington, and to ship arms abroad from Israel, when he was there in 1972. As a result, a federal judge scheduled a hearing on revocation of Kahane's 5-year probation, dating from a July, 1971 conviction for making a firebomb.The judge subsequently found Kahane guilty of violating his probation, and imposed a one-year prison term, which Kahane began serving on March 18 of that year." [6] OK, so he was a convicted felon, at least as to the firebomb. Cat reinstated. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 14:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

So how does that make him an "Israeli" "criminal (all of that happened long before he went to Israel)? He was an activist on behalf of Soviet Jewry in the USA and is credited by many for getting the many people to focus on the proble. He was the first to coin and push the slogan "let my people go" for Soviet Jewry. Nope, sorry, the category has nothing to do with Israel. IZAK 08:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Kahane was convicted of crimes in the US *and* in Israel, though he was generally given extremely lenient sentences. In June, 1973, after letters from Kahane intended for JDL members were intercepted by Israeli police and found to contain directions for bombing the Iraqi embassy and the shooting of a Russian diplomat, he was arrested and convicted for conspiring to commit acts of violence in a foreign country and attempting to harm relations between Israel and the United States. He received a suspended sentence. In November, 1974, an Israeli court convicted him and co-defendant Amihai Paglin for attempted weapons smuggling ("attempted" because they were caught at the airport), and they were both given two-year suspended sentences. As for American convictions, he was convicted in 1971 of a felony charge of manufacturing firebombs. He was given probation, but was convicted on May 15, 1972 of violating the terms thereof, was sentenced to one year in prison, and served eight months in a Manhattan halfway house and then the remaining four months in a minimum security federal penitentiary in Allenwood, Pennsylvania. Masarra 16:39, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Category:Right-wing American terrorists

Removed "Category:Right-wing American terrorists". Yet another attempt to label Kahane retroactively. Can someone explain how he was a "terrorist" please? Was George Washington also a "terrorist" because he did fight for his people, unlike Kahane who SPOKE OUT more than anything. If anything his "bark was worse than his bite", that is if he "bit" anyone at all. IZAK 08:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

How was Kahane a terrorist? Well, I'm afraid that you would be hard-pressed to find a definition of terrorist that would not include Kahane. In terms of numbers of deaths, the JDL was one of the most dangerous terrorist organizations in the United States during his lifetime, "and was ranked by the FBI as the most lethal domestic terrorist group in America, overtaking the Aryan Nation, the American Nazi Party, and the Puerto Rican Revolution" (Robert Friedman, "Sheikh Abdel Rahman, the World Trade Center bombing and the CIA," Open Media, 1993, p. 12). The FBI file on Kahane, thousands of pages long, is available to researchers upon request. That file details decades of illegal activities that can only be described as terrorism, including international weapons smuggling, numerous instances of assault and battery, inciting violence, directing the carrying out of break-ins, bombings and assassinations (such as Alex Odeh, of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee), and the non-stop production of a voluminous body of hate literature that called upon a particular group of people to engage in illegal acts of violence against other groups of people. In addition to the FBI file, there is an abundance of secondary literature by journalists, historians, policial scientists and academic scholars of religion on Kahane; from even an extremely cursory review of this material one cannot be in any doubt as to the legitimacy of the "terrorist" label. The U.S. State Department, the FBI and Israeli intelligence and police agencies all give him this label. Social and political scientists do so as well. Basic reference works on terrorism almost invariably include Kahane, Kahanism and the organizations that Kahane founded. Most importantly, perhaps, is that Kahane used this label to describe himself. As you may know, he founded a group in Israel called "Terror Neged Terror" (TNT), or "terror against terror," which engaged in indiscriminate violence against Arabs in Israel. As Knesset member, he attempted to table (though the speaker refused to do so) legislation calling for the creation and funding of an international Jewish terrorist organization - he used this term - that would be the counterpart to such groups funded by Islamist states like Iran. So, not only is it impossible to avoid the use of this term, it is incorrect to say that doing so constitutes retroactive labelling of Kahane. Masarra 16:12, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Kahane was a terrorist because he was the leader of an organisation which was designated as a terrorist group by the American and Israeli governments. Hope that clears it up for you.

Tried and convicted in Israel?

The following is not supported and because of it's extreme nature, needs to be proven and discussed here first. Was Rabbi Kahane "tried and convicted in Israel" for "conspiring to commit acts of violence"?

"Kahane received a felony conviction in the United States for conspiring to make bombs and was tried and convicted in Israel for conspiracy to commit acts of violence in a foreign country."

Please add your views. IZAK 08:35, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

IZAK, you're right about the country of course. So do you think he should go under "American criminals"? - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 09:26, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Crzrussian: Only if you want to also include Malcolm X (involved in drug dealing, gambling, pimping, racketeering, and robbery); Marion Barry (convicted of drug charges); Eldridge Cleaver (convicted of assault with intent to murder); Angela Davis (charged with conspiracy, kidnapping, and homicide); Bobby Seale (conspiracy and inciting to riot, sentenced to four years imprisonment for contempt of court) and MANY others in the USA. Since NONE of these individuals mentioned -- with CLEAR criminal records -- are categorized as criminals, which they clearly were, neither should Kahane be stigmatized for his ACTIVISM. He was not doing anything to harm the USA, in his view he was acting, to help Jews remain or become FREE from oppression be they in Israel, the USSR or the USA. Can the same be said about the Black activists who chanted and lived by "burn baby burn" yet are listed in glowing wonderful categories without any mention that many of them were and are real-life CONVICTED criminals? You CANNOT have a double standard. It seems the editors dealing with the articles about the convicted Black "activists" knew not to class them as criminals of any sort, so why are you so obssessed with doing this to Kahane? Makes you think, no? IZAK 09:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

What makes you think I am obsessed? Chalila! I am in fact quite relaxed. I would support adding the criminal cat to anyone convicted of a felony unless it was clearly baseless, like Dreyfuss. Barry and Cleaver were convicted it seems - and so was Kahane, no? I try to exercise super duper impartiality when it comes to Jewish topics. Take it easy, man. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:10, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Contempt is not a crime. Neither is being charged w/ something. BTW, the only reason I put Kahane on my watchlist is to watch out for anti-Kach vandalism! Your accusations completely miss the point. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:11, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added the cat to Kahane, Barry, Cleaver, and X. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:22, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Oh boy Crz, now you have the big job of sifting through Category:Terrorists by nationality; Category:People convicted on terrorism charges; Category:African Americans' rights activists; Category:Black Panther Party members; Category:American activists; Category:Ku Klux Klan members; Category:Neo-Nazis; Category:White nationalists; Category:Anarchists; Category:Islamists and then find all those that you can add weird labels to. Good luck! IZAK 12:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
LOL. Maybe not. But if you see any mislabelled ones - hit 'em. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 12:55, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Oath of Office

An anonymous user has changed the article from saying that Kahane refused to take the oath of office to saying that he took the oath with a qualification. This needs to be reverted, as Kahane _did_ refuse to take the oath and attempted to use that refusal for a while to avoid certain restrictions that would have ensued upon his taking that oath. Masarra 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Promotion of Violence

I've deleted the anonymous edit that added the sentence about Kahane's opponents viewing him as "a terrorist who promoted violence." This is misleading. Kahane openly and explicitly promoted violence; this is a demonstrable fact, not an opinion of his opponents. As to his being a terrorist, this has been determined not by his opponents but by the U.S. and Israeli intelligence and police agencies, social scientists and specialists on terrorism. If you want to characterize how his opponents viewed him, it would be more appropriate to underline the many comparisons that were made between Kahane and the Nazis. Masarra 01:01, 7 June 2006 (UTC)