Talk:Military career of Adolf Hitler/Archive 1

Archive 1

Allocation to the DAP

Hitler's job was to influence other soldiers and to infiltrate the German Workers' Party (DAP). Apparently he was selected by Ernst Röhm for this duty. The two of them were already well-known to each other at this time. Valetude (talk) 20:40, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

No, not correct. In May 1919 Karl Mayr became commander of the 6th Battalion of the guards regiment in Munich and from 30 May the head of the "Education and Propaganda Department" (Dept Ib/P) of the Bavarian Reichswehr, Headquarters 4.(see – Kershaw, 2008, pp. 72–74) In this capacity as head of the intelligence department, Mayr recruited Hitler as an undercover agent in early June 1919. Under Captain Mayr, "national thinking" courses were arranged at the Reichswehrlager Lechfeld near Augsburg,(see – Kershaw, 2008, pp. 72–74) with Hitler attending from 10–19 July 1919. In July 1919, Hitler was appointed a Verbindungsmann (intelligence agent) of an Aufklärungskommando (reconnaissance commando) of the Reichswehr, both to influence other soldiers and to infiltrate the German Workers' Party (DAP).(see – Kershaw, 2008, p. 82) Kierzek (talk) 17:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

"forced to admit"

"which forced Germany to admit to starting the war"

I come here with zero opinion on who started the war. So when I read this line, it feels wrong. If they are "forced", they they aren't "admitting" anything. They are saying what they are being forced to say. A fast Google shows "Article 231, otherwise known as the 'War Guilt Clause' forced Germany to accept responsibility for the First World War", which I think is a much better way of phrasing it.68.206.248.178 (talk) 04:11, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Done. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:53, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

But Germany was far from the primary antagonist for starting the war. The war started because Serbian Intelligence sponsored an organized assassination of the Austrian heir, and was called out for it. Russia was the first external country to step in, telling Austria they'd be attacked if they attacked Serbia. Then Germany spoke up and told Russia the same thing about Austria. Germany was INDEED "forced" to accept blame due to international legalities associated with placing financial blame and obtaining compensation (France and UK owed the US tons of money) 166.182.255.21 (talk) 04:28, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Austria-Hungary's actions would not have occurred without the "blank check" (so-called) approval and encouragement of the Germans. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:16, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Hitler's account of how he won Iron Cross

Hitler's account of how he won the Iron Cross First Class comes from H. R. Knickerbocker's Is Tomorrow Hitler's? (1941). Knickerbocker was a longtime European correspondent who had been in Germany since the early 1920s—he witnessed the Beer Hall Putsch firsthand—and met Hitler many times. He won the Pulitzer in 1931.

From pages 31 and 32, when asked about Hitler's personal courage:

It is hard to say. I could put it this way: Hitler is not the sort of man about whom one would unhesitatingly say that he is personally brave, as one would say about Churchill, for example. Perhaps we shall not count the story he told me about his winning the Iron Cross in the last war, since many Germans say it is not a true story. Yet it is an interesting one. He told it to me the night of March 11, 1932. on the eve of the Presidential election when he ran against Hindenburg and scored eleven million to Hindenburg's eighteen million votes.

I asked him how he had won his Iron Cross. He always wore it but his political enemies declared there was no record in the army archives of its having been awarded him and neither in Mein Kamp nor elsewhere could there be found any account of how he got it. I was afraid when I asked the question that it might irritate him, but he seemed amused, and even pleased.

"You know," he said, "I was a dispatch bearer in the war. One day, toward the first of June 1918, I was ordered to take a message to another part of the front, and had to traverse a section of no man's land. Presently I passed a dugout which I thought abandoned, but suddenly I heard French voices below.

"Being alone, and armed only with a pistol, I stopped a moment, then drew my pistol and shouted below in my very bad French, 'Come up, surrender!' Then I shouted in German as though to a squad of soldiers, orders to 'Fix bayonets! Draw your hand grenades!' First one French soldier, and then another, and then another came up with their hands in the air until there were seven. I marched them to the rear and turned them over as prisoners of war. Now," he paused, and smiled at Tom Delmer of the London Daily Express, who was with me, "if they had been English soldiers, or," turning to me and continuing to smile, "if they had been American soldiers, I am not sure I should have been able to make them surrender so easily, and perhaps I would not have my Iron Cross or be here today."

This is the only time I have observed a sense of humor in Hitler, and of course if his story is correct, it proves that he had on that occasion a considerable amount of personal bravery.

I do not know if the story is true, but there is no reason to question that the story is what Hitler claimed was true. Ylee (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There is reason to question the matter as it cannot be confirmed; it is making a "claim" of a statement/material which does not appear in the modern detailed works on Hitler. For example, historian Ian Kershaw, a foremost authority, doesn't mention that account in any of his Hitler books; historian Thomas Weber, investigated Hitler's regiment's files and wrote an in depth account of Hitler in World War I; see: Weber, Thomas (2010). Hitler's First War: Adolf Hitler, The Men of the List Regiment, and the First World War. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-923320-5; it does not mention that stated account. The book you cite was written by a journalist in 1941; which would make it an out of date text as a WP:RS source and should be viewed with caution as the that claim.

Hitler's Iron Class first class was from the recommendation signed on July 17, 1918 by Lieutenant-Colonel Michael Freiherr von Godin and read: "As a runner his coolness and dash in both trench and open warfare have been exemplary, and invariably he has shown himself ready to volunteer for tasks in the most difficult situations and at great danger to himself. Whenever communications have been totally disrupted at a critical moment in a battle, it has been thanks to Hitler's unflagging and devoted efforts that important messages continued to get through despite every difficulty." The man who originally made the recommendation was ironically, of course, the German-Jewish regimental adjutant, Captain Hugo Gutman. Kierzek (talk) 01:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Kierzek. There is no truth behind a POW capture story. -OberRanks (talk) 01:34, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thomas Weber has been totally discredited as a source by Peer Review. Private Hitler's War 1914-1918 by Bob Carruthers found the corroborating evidence for this story from a 1932 trial when Hitler sued for slander and won, the only time he ever sued anyone in court over his war record. Testimony from the officers and enlisted of the List Regiment were gathered along with his war record, which Weber dismissed, and completely corroborated Hitler's record as a brave soldier. He was not a draft dodger and had reported to the Austrian Draft Board and was examined and rejected as medically unfit and had the documents to prove it.

Hitler fought in the ranks at Gheluvelt and earned the Iron Cross Second Class for shielding his commanding officer with his own body. He was also promoted to Gefreiter. He was stationed at Fromele and was a message runner from Regiment HQ to Battalion HQs and it was not a safe job. Fromele was within Machine Gun and Sniper Range and all the messengers returned with bullet holes through their cloaks and muddy from jumping from shell crater to shell crater. His capture of the French Soldiers was attested to by his commanding officers and fellow enlisted. He more than earned his Iron Crosses, Military Merit Badge, Regimental Diploma, and Wound Badges. Tgoll774 (talk) 15:53, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Hitler rec'd a number of medals but his Iron cross first class was not awarded for rounding up a posse of French soldiers. This action was achieved by another German soldier from memory and picked up by Goebbels later for obvious reasons. I think comments by other regimental members made after say 1924 can be taken with a pinch of salt. You have to put yourself in their position at a time when they perhaps embellished matters conscious of the SA on the streets and concentration camps available for people whose religion, thoughts, beliefs and ideas didn't meet Hitler's ideology. Imprisonment without trial.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XqkwDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT134&lpg=PT134&dq=iron+cross+first+class+capture+of+french+soldiers&source=bl&ots=WLzQ-fIMM7&sig=teac46P92Bbn35ktjmjkFHzN964&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQt-2g17jUAhVKCsAKHd7LA8sQ6AEITzAL#v=onepage&q=iron%20cross%20first%20class%20capture%20of%20french%20soldiers&f=false  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merelyanopinion (talk • contribs) 16:18, 12 June 2017 (UTC) 

Draft Dodging

I have read that Hitler was arrested for draft dodging? Can anyone shed any light on this because it isn't mentioned in the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:10, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I have heard that speculation somewhere before. However, the cited sources do not state that. Kierzek (talk) 17:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

According to Fest, Joachim (February 2013). Hitler. p. 61. ISBN 9780544195547. H. was arrested on 18 January 1914.ÄDA - DÄP VA (talk) 18:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you'll find the draft dodging was to do with his exit from Austria. He was an Austrian national until he gained German Citzenship on the 26/2/32 so doubtful he could have been had for dodging the draft in Germany. Indeed as I recall he was excited to be fighting for 'Germany'. From memory I believe he considered himself more Bavarian than Austrian. This can be easily backed up by google searches.

http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/hitler.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merelyanopinion (talk • contribs) 15:21, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

http://ww2days.com/hitler-becomes-german-citizen-2.html

Rank is Incorrect

When Hitler enlisted he was assigned the rank of "Kriegsfreiwilliger," not Schütze. 76.66.159.150 (talk) 07:04, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Still no change? Obviously the people who think they're qualified to write this article know absolutely NOTHING about the Imperial German Army. 67.70.64.139 (talk) 03:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

The article states that Hitler "was never considered officer material" or for the full NCO rank at the time, but he was considered, but declined the promotion in order to stay with his messenging unit. This article is incorrect. But based on past experience any changes I make to a page like this will be reverted, even if they are sourced. Gnostc (talk) 13:13, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I took it out as it is uncited and un-needed. Kierzek (talk) 15:36, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Why is it "un-needed" - it seems quite relevant. 67.70.64.139 (talk) 03:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Why did he decline promotion? This Article cites the official view of his party. More credible is the story he repeatedly failed the exam needed for the promotion. So after some attempts he frustrated decided 'not to want the promotion'. --Mdarge (talk) 13:43, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

The rank problem is covered in depth by Bob Carruthers. No point in my embellishing matters. With respect to Ludendorff this makes Hitler a 'little private'.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qVPdCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT30&lpg=PT30&dq=hitler+remained+a+private&source=bl&ots=Q5Aja82Go8&sig=-KzqzbA2AcDGcYyc3FxTek844r4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRq9XWvbjUAhWILcAKHdmsAK0Q6AEIQTAE#v=onepage&q=hitler%20remained%20a%20private&f=false

Compared to German Wikipedia Lance Corporal is the rank of Obergefreiter. But that rank didn't exist before 1919. In any case Gefreiter suits better to private first class with with no command authority.--Mdarge (talk) 22:59, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

That is my understanding as well, Gefreite is not yet a corporal despite the universal translation as such in English (there is no direct equivalent). Historian932 (talk) 22:56, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Gutmann's religion/ethnicity

"Hitler's First Class Iron Cross was recommended by Hugo Gutmann, a Jewish List adjutant."

Why is it mentioned here that Gutmann was Jewish? There is no mention of other random people's religions on this page. It really looks like whoever added it there just thought "look, look! a Jew recommended HITLER for a medal! irony!" - this kind of wording, not to mention this kind of mindset, doesn't belong on an encyclopedia.89.176.209.84 (talk) 20:16, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it is useful to show that Hitler did not spurn help or recognition from Jewish people when it suited him, and it may show a contrast in his dealings with Jews who had direct authority over him against those who were politically under his rule in his later career. The First World War was a stage in the development of his anti-Semitism. I disagree with calling the description "random" in context of the career of a prominent avowed anti-Semite, who was to implicate Jews in the back-stab-legend about 1918. It was this Iron Cross that Hitler would wear regularly before and after he came to power.Cloptonson (talk) 22:08, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Cross of Honor (listed under World War II Decorations)

I question the accuracy of listing the Cross of Honor (sic) under World War II Decorations, unless there was one of that name actually awarded for service from 1939. The name's link connects to an article headed in full The Honour Cross of the World War 1914/1918, which Hitler could plausibly qualify for having served throughout WWI in the Imperial German Army. If this is the decoration intended, then it does not chronologically qualify as a World War II decoration, being founded in 1934 and retrospectively for WWI service.Cloptonson (talk) 21:38, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

It was a strange award, made pretty much to replace the countless Awards of the German Freikorps. Good point, perhaps change to say "World War II era". -OberRanks (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Removal of Hitler awards image

Given that this edit is really pushing civility (image is "ugly", editors are "cobbling teenagers", etc), I think we need to discuss the actual merits for a legitimate reason to remove the image in question. I will not restore it for a number of reasons, chief being that I've been on the fence about having it in the first place, i.e. does it really help the article, and also as its been removed twice by the same editor who posted a similar scathing comments in both occurrences, there is a potential for an edit war if its restored again. Other comments? -O.R.^Comms 14:01, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Consensus is needed for the removal and I have not seen that occur, yet. Kierzek (talk) 15:51, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Allegiance

The infobox "Allegiance: Weimar Republic" misleads readers. The NSDAP and Hitler strove to end the Republic, concluding with the *Enabling Act* of 1933 which gave Chancellor Hitler plenary power. I'd suggest deleting the line, as Hitler's military service with the Republic was simply waiting to be demobilized after the armistice. Applying such a technical rule to other defeated soldiers would lead to similarly perverse results: General Lee owing allegiance to the Union, etc. Gdt (talk) 03:47, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

Blinded in which battle?

On 15 October 1918, he and several comrades were temporarily blinded.

Is it known at which battle, or whereabouts on the Western Front this happened? Valetude (talk) 23:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure but it would have been at the end of the war because I believe he wrote in Mein Kampf that when he heard the announcement saying Germany had surrendered he was in a field hospital with his eyes bandaged shut (this may be retrospective embellishment however).Historian932 (talk) 22:54, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Enlistment in Bavarian Army - royal permission alleged

I recall reading (during 1970s) in William Shirer's book, The Rise and Fall of Adolf Hitler, that Hitler sought/gained permission to enlist in the Bavarian Army from the then King, Ludwig III. This point, from a prominent and then living commentator on the Third Reich, appears to have been overlooked in the article's discussion of how he came to be in this rather than be sent to Austria.Cloptonson (talk) 15:56, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

The king refused his request, but owing to a clerical error, he received a letter granting permission. Valetude (talk) 23:27, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Lance corporal or PFC?

And editor has changed all references in the article from "lance corporal" or "corporal" to "private first class". I have reverted because I thinkk this needs to be discussed.

Hitler's rank, Gefreiter, can be considered either of these depending on what criteria one uses. Hitler received only one promotion in his WWI career, and if one is comparing that to, for instance, the British Army, that would be from Private to Lance Corporal. However, in other armies, that promotion would have been from Private to Private First Class. I had always seen "Corporal" used as Hitler's rank in all English language sources that I am familiar with (for instance Kershaw (2008) p.53), so much so that when I read Volker Ullrich's recent two-volume biography, which was translated from Geran, I was surprised that he used "Private" instead. This lead to some investigation, including the information which is in Gefreiter#Wehrmacht, which gives the various equivalences, and discusses the "Bohemian corporal" tag which Hindenburg, for example, used in denigrating Hitler.

Because the vast majority of English-language sources use "Corporal" over "Private", I think it is best if we continue to do so as well, although an explanatory note would not be out of order. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:28, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Based on my extensive reading over the years in both English and German works, the vast preponderance (and it's not even close) has been to connote Hitler's WWI rank as Corporal. German generals complaining about his interference both during and after the war, used the term Corporal as well (it's still a very low rank). Because of this, the most that should be done with respect to any change is the addition of an explanatory note, one which references as an example the work from Ullrich. Concur with BMK. --Obenritter (talk) 16:42, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

I agree, it should be phrased as the majority of RS sources state, with an explanatory note. Kierzek (talk) 01:16, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I've added a note, feel free to edit as needed. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:26, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Obenritter, you say German generals complaining about his interference... used the term Corporal Which German word do they use for this rank? Valetude (talk) 23:56, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Actually, the choice here is not between Lance Corporal and Private First Class, but between Lance Corporal and Private. This disparity exists partially due to the fact that the British term "Lance Corporal" is used for a soldiers rank after his first promotion. It is equivalent to an E-3 in the American armed forces or NATO's OR-3 (OR = Other Ranks), as is PFC in the U.S. Army. The British Army apparently has no rank equivalent to an E/OR-2.

The German rank of "Gefreiter" is equivalent to "Private" in the U.S.Army (E-2), as opposed to what is commonly referred to as "Buck Private" (E-1). In purely American terms, a soldier has no rank while in Basic Training - he/she is simply a "Recruit", with no commensurate E designation. Upon successful completion of basic - the "Recruit" becomes an E-1, generally having no insignia - also known colloquially as a "slicksleeve" or "buck private". After a set period of time with no disciplinary issues, the "Recruit" receives automatic promotion to E-2, but is still a Private. The insignia is generally a single stripe.

Bob Carruthers, author of "Private Hitler's War, 1914-1918" makes clear that a gefreiter. Hitler "remained a private soldier" and "had no command over other men". He concludes with the frank statement that "Hitler was never a corporal". This fact is also highlighted on page 53 of "Hitler's First War" by Thomas Weber.

Simply because a supposed fact has been misreported consistently over the years does not make it true. The repetition simply makes it more difficult to correct. The example that I always think of also relates to Adolf Hitler. It is constantly repeated that Hitler's last public appearance occurred on his birthday, April 20, 1945; and that on that day he awarded the Iron Cross to a group of Hitler Youth. The scene is even repeated in the otherwise remarkable film "Der Untergang". The true date for the ceremony is March 20, 1945, fully a month earlier. (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCnM5lcoLzk for the German newsreel Die Deutsche Wochenshau, No. 755 from March 22, 1945, at 2:07) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dlmmdsk (talk • contribs) 04:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Note: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gefreiter Gefreiter ([ɡəˈfraɪ̯tɐ], abbr. Gefr.; plural Gefreite) is a German, Swiss and Austrian military rank that has existed since the 16th century. It is usually the second rank or grade to which an enlisted soldier, airman or sailor could be promoted. Within the combined NATO rank scale, the modern-day rank of Gefreiter is usually equivalent to the NATO-standard rank scale OR-2. The word has also been lent into the Russian language (Russian: Yefreytor/Ефрейтор), and is in use in several Russian and post-Soviet militaries.

DLM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.37.27.252 (talk) 04:39, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

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History

We do in lessons 82.16.248.27 (talk) 20:08, 29 January 2023 (UTC)