|WikiProject Greece||(Rated Start-class, Low-importance)|
Is there any connection between this and the modern "Talk to the hand" gesture"?Kevin 04:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think so. I didn't even know about the gesture you mentioned and I had to google it. Seems completely unrelated.
- "Moutza" is typically used to show your disapproval of something the other person has done or even that don't like him because he is incompetent/useless/an idiot/a bastard etc. For example, a Greek watching a player of his favorite football team kicking the ball from the penalty mark and missing the goalpost completely may become angry and use the "moutza" gesture pointing his palm(s) towards his TV! (implying that the player is incompetent)
- BTW, I 'm Greek and I bet that 95%+ of the Greeks don't know about the origin of "moutza"! (I didn't, although I knew it was a very old gesture.)220.127.116.11 10:47, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- Are the fingers generally spread in the Moutza? Because in the "talk to the hand" gesture, they're ususally closed. Kevin 15:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
- The wider they spread the better. It has nothing to do as a meaning with "I'm fed up with your blubber". What it says is "up yours". I'd compare it to the finger, which btw is much rarer in Greece (due to the full palm thing). I think this can be explained by the actual original meaning: How would you quickly spread cinder on someone's face or body? Definitely with the palm open. NikoSilver 12:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Whose hand is this? I can read a long and adventurous life ahead of you... ;-) Politis 11:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- There isn't such an (exact) expression in Greek, but we got numerous other relative ones. It's equivalent to the finger, only apart from insulting, it's also derogatory for the recipient. NikoSilver 11:41, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Use in Great Britain
I've deleted the following statement from the article:
In Great Britain the same form of the one hand palm is often used simply as a form of salute to car drivers for allowing passage across them; it is not an insult in any way but an acknowledgment of appreciation.
There is no citation given for this and, in my experience, any gesture of raising the hand, palm forwards, is taken to mean "thank you" in this sort of situation in the UK (or "hello" between two people passing in the street, for example). The position of the fingers (spread or together) does not matter but such gestures are usually given with the hand in a relaxed position, rather than with the fingers widely spread as in the moutza. Dricherby (talk) 10:27, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
The V-sign and other versions
The v-sign is not just a lesser form. It also sometimes used as an ironic expression of the original meaning of the V-sign (usually followed by the spreading of the other fingers resulting in a full mountza). It is also used combined with the relatively common phrase "Anikitos malakas" (undefeatable/invincible wanker).--18.104.22.168 (talk) 00:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
Origin needs better sourcing
The origin listed in the article seems dubious; the reference appears to be to a blog post. Does anyone have a more reliable source for this origin story? If not, I suggest it be removed as a possible folk etymology. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:22, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
WP:OR, dubious and little to no sourcing
I randomly stumbled onto this article, and was a little surprised by the quality of the content and referencing.
- The first citation isn't really a reference, but is a link to a non-free advertisement, ostensibly showing the gesture, that asks the reader to essentially perform original research. The second is an op-ed from the Tribune by Greek-American John Kass. Neither is particularly acceptable as a source; the second could conceivably be used as a source for specific commentary by Kass, but simply being a columnist born to Greek immigrant parents does not make him a reliable source for any substantive claims.
- Also, as other editors have noted, the "sign in other cultures" section appears to be almost wholly original research, and as noted by them (and speaking from my own anecdotal experiences), some don't even appear to be remotely factual.
- The origin of the gesture, as described in the article, was originally sourced to a blog, and also amounts to original research. A good faith effort to ascertain whether it could be reliably sourced just showed me various people parroting said blog. And as an amateur classicist, I've certainly never read anything of the sort in any classical source, or in writings by classicists. Information on the Eleusinian Mysteries is rather sparse, and this isn't included in any of the few extant remarks from antiquity that I've seen.
I'm hoping that some of the editors here can hopefully insert some reliable references for the claims presented here. Because otherwise, the article would need to be extensively trimmed to remotely comply with basic policy and standards. Presumably, there are some reliable sources in Greek, which unfortunately I can't read. I certainly wasn't coming across anything of passable quality in English. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2016 (UTC)