Talk:Nigger/Archive 2

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Usage

Does anyone have any evidence regarding frequency of usage? I've heard the word plenty, publically and otherwise, by people of all races. I've known a handful of people (one pakistani guy in particular) that used no other word for black people other than "nigger" or "niggers" (usually along w other expletives). Along w my personal experience, I find it highly speculative to suggest that the word is not used by "most" people, or whatever. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 23:01, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The hackneyed wigger "community"

I used this turn of phrase because it seemed both appropriate, and extremely funny (to me at least). It survived for a VERY long time, so I doubt it was particularly inapt. If their can be a "gay community" or an "online community", why cannot their be a "wigger community"? Sam_Spade (talk · contribs) 21:20, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

B-Real of Cypress Hill

Good addition regarding the Beastie Boys and Eminem. But I'm not so sure about B-Real. Is he really completely devoid of African ancestry? It's highly doubtful, given the ethnographic history of Cuba and how miscegenated bloodlines manifest over time. He certainly doesn't look straight-up white, and his swarthiness ain't from Arawak/Taino blood. Unless B-Real has personally disavowed any African ancestry, I definitely wouldn't include this example. And even then, it's likely not so that he's as "white as the driven snow." deeceevoice 08:37, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the point is that he's not exactly black, but more of a latino. The suggestion is that amongst certain non-african ethnicities, the term might be more acceptable. I can assure you however that the mexican and pakistani friends I have heard to say "niggers" did not mean it in a spirit of comraderie, and it was absolutely not self-representational. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:10, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Latinos are generally allowed to use the term nigga, since they have significant African ancestry. However, not all Black people share that view; many will still tear down a Latino brother or sister for using the term. --b. Touch 15:00, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well some blacks (heck, some white people for that matter) will "tear down" a black person using the term too, its not certainly a unanimously popular word, no matter who uses it. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 19:29, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have a number of Latino friends and speak with them often -- in English and Spanish. And I can assure you. They'd damned better not use "nigga" in my presence. Ever. Don't over generalize, BTouch. We all recall the controversy when Jennifer Lopez used it in a song, and that idiot P Diddy said he'd give her a pass -- just once. (Like he had the authority to speak for the entire race 'cuz she had his nose wide open.) Most black folks I know detest the term and use it, if ever, primarily to describe a backwards mind-set. And will absolutely not tolerate its use by a nonblack. Furthermore, even black folks ignorant enough to allow nonblacks to use the term know that not all Latinos are cool on matters of race. Chicanos and Cubanos are notoriously racist -- and just about all of them are infected with the same sickness that people of color are all over the world; they're "color struck." Pathetic. You ever watch Univision? Blacks are virtually nonexistent; you'd think all of Latin America was blanco and mestizo. The few blacks they do show are often just buffoons. And they love to refer to blacks as "monos" (monkeys) and all sorts of things. Among the black folks I know, a Latino who parts his/her lips to say "nigger," "nigga" or any variant of the word, they'd better be ready to run -- and run hard -- or suffer the consequences. deeceevoice 22:25, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Nigger/nigga

Dude, if I ever said "nigger", I'd pronounce it "nigga" and so would everyone I know. That's because in standard English, final "-a" and final "-er" are pronounced the same, as a schwa (a backwards, upside down "e" in IPA). Clearly, "nigga" is just a kewl way to write "nigger" (surely you remember "Niggaz with attitude"?). I think we have to take a bit more care in Wikipedia not to make assertions that are a bit silly, or go without saying. This is one. I didn't scrub it but those editors who work on this page regularly might like to give the idea some thought. Dr Zen 07:36, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Um, the nigger/nigga issue is a well-documented issue with African-American people. Many (most?) young Black people really do believe that the two words have completely separate meanings, and they use them as such. --b. Touch 08:23, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article is correct as it stands. However, I moved a section I wrote earlier about the self-referential use of the term to the "Nigger versus Nigga" section, where I thought it was more on point. I do not happen to believe, however, that "most" African-American youth use the term self-referentially. After all, the attempt to legitimize "nigga" is simply ignorance -- and, thankfully, not all black youth are ignorant of their history, naive or arrogant enough to believe the silly hype around the overuse of this word. Many do not strive to emulate "thug" culture or accept the fake gangsta garbage/self-destructive images of rap music and hip-hop culture in all their negative permutations. They have some common sense, vision and self-respect. deeceevoice 09:07, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I agree with all of you, and insist that until we have some surveys, polls, or whatnot regarding the opinions on using the terms "nigga" and "nigger", we shouldn't speculate on what most people think. The nigga / nigger dichotomy is a very real one, and although ridiculous to me, has a lot of import to many people. I remember a rather vacuous girl I knew telling me about how some black friends had explained to her that: "they don't like it when you call them "nigg-ers", but "nigga" is ok. Its the "er" part they don't like". I just shook my head and laughed. IMO "nigger, nigga, etc.. is much like other insults, and within certain groups they are acceptable. Compare "motherfucker", "mother..." and "MOFO". All have the same basic meaning, but are differently acceptable in differing circumstances. There is no hard and fast social rule, its something entirely circumstantial. (Sam Spade | talk | contributions) 12:04, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dr Zen, in most dialects of American English they are quite distinguishable. -leigh (φθόγγος) 04:48, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Why doesn't nigger redirect to nigger (word)?

Everything else listed on nigger refers to the word; this seems like a clear case for primary-topic disambiguation, with nigger redirecting here and what's currently at nigger moved to nigger (disambiguation). --SPUI (talk) 16:15, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. --brian0918™ 17:00, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wigger

I edited the statement on "wiggers" (The word is considered offensive [...]) to say "The word is sometimes considered offensive [...]", but it was reverted. The reason I made the change was because many people don't consider the word offensive at all, and so the article should reflect that. I know many people who would without a thought say "wigger", but who would never dream of uttering "nigger". Any thoughts? Rep 23:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I changed that after the revert to read "often" or "usually" (can't remember which) - definitely saying "considered offensive" is POV. --SPUI (talk) 00:05, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Oops, I must be very tired to have missed that - sorry. But thanks, it looks good now. Rep 00:28, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

POV

Opponents of this view argue that nigga is simply "nigger" pronounced with a southern accent, and the revisionist spelling is simply a phonetic representation of the word as it always has been pronounced in African American Vernacular English. "Nigger" is also "nigga" pronounced the same by many whites who intend it as a racial slur. Opponents contend the explanation of the new revisionist usage by a relatively small segment of the population has not changed its centuries-old, racist nature. The majority of African Americans, including many youth, still consider the term offensive and inappropriate in most, if not all, contexts— and never acceptable in any context when used by nonblacks.

Cite a study showing what "The majority of African Americans" think. Otherwise the above is unacceptable. Sam Spade 16:24, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Progress is being made. I have an issue w singling out races in regards to use of the term. A particularly good example of this is muslims. I knew a pakistani guy who hated black people despite the fact that they embraced him. This was especially obvious because black co-workers (I worked w the guy) often wanted to shake his hand, and otherwise greet him warmly. This made him quite angry, as he deeply disliked black people, and considered himself white. Indeed he never used the word "blacks" that I can recollect, only saying "niggers". My black coworkers on the other hand seemed to feel a brotherhood with him, sometimes referring to him as "my brotha". To top off the awkward humor of the circumstance, our upper and middle management was overwhelmingly black, and one of his complaints was that they might have hired him due to his race! All of this in the year after 9/11, when muslims were especially unpopular in the USA (this was in Dayton, Ohio). Funny stuff, if your completely un-pc (as I am). Sam Spade 12:46, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just getting around to visiting talk. Yeah. 'S funny. Kinda like Steve Martin suddenly realizing he's not black in that film way back when. The Pakistani guy must've been absolutely beside himself. Kinda tragic, too, though. Poor thing. Despising black folks and after these years, only just now finding out he's a "nigger." ROTFLMBAO. Life's a bytch, ain't it? deeceevoice 00:59, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Last I heard from him he was about to be deported back to pakistan, so yeah, i think thats probably a good summary ;) Sam Spade 08:54, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

New meaning for word "Nigger"

Burnout Magazine is reporting a new use for the word: http://www.burnoutmag.com/article.cgi?article=3&s= 128.54.53.118 (talk) 03:18, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Obviously a joke, incase anyone takes this seriously. :) Haddock420 03:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Dead supremacy

More passionately, the term 'Nigger' may also refer to the rarely understood 'dead supremacy.'

Can someone tell me what this means? A hint? A vague outline? Anything? JP | Tark 21:38, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

What? *scratching head* (I hope that's not in the text of the article somewhere!) deeceevoice 23:21, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "nigger"

I have heard a lot of Southerners say "nigger", and with a drawl, the "r" is very clearly pronounced. I think it's ridiculous to say that "many whites who intend it as a racial slur" pronounce the word "nigga", because I can only ever remember white people pronouncing it that way deliberately, in a more "thug" context. Flillibridge 04:26, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Louisiana. In southern drawl, the "er" ending is not pronounced. "Jimmeh Cartuh," "flah swattuh," "cahpet bagguh," "nigguh" -- same thing. I don't know who you been listenin' to, but tha's jus' the plain fact of the mattuh. :p deeceevoice 23:19, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

You've never heard someone from the South drawl "nigg-er" real slowly and deliberately? I'm from central Texas, originally, and there are lots of people there who pronounce the "-er" in that and other words who have a clearly "Southern" accent. I just don't think it's really relevant to the article to have this kind of point-counterpoint stuff in there with such sketchy factual information. I'm not going to change anything, I just thought I'd say something. Flillibridge 23:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

(chuckling) Chances are I've heard "nigger" pronounced every possible way under the sun humanly possible. You say "...real slowly and deliberately" -- that's purposeful. One can pronounce anything any kind of way -- purposefully. Fact is, in casual speech, the tendency in the South is to drop the "er" and replace it with an "uh" sound. deeceevoice 07:23, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

It's pointless to argue this, because obviously we're talking about different groups of Southerners. I know what's more common where I'm from, and you somewhere else. The original point of this has been lost. Flillibridge 07:44, May 14, 2005 (UTC)

You're absolutely right. But this article doesn't say that every nonblack to pronounces the word "nigga (nigguh)" intends it as a racial slur, or that everyone who does, does, now -- does it? After all, it's an ugly word used 'round the world and people with all kinds of accents sling it around. And that's not the point, anyway. The point is the word has been pronounced "nigga" for centuries -- before naive/ignorant folks like Tupac came along and decided, in their arrogance, that they were somehow changing the meaning of the word by pronouncing it that way, that there is somehow some inherent difference in the relative powerlessness of a person in the face of racism based on whether they "thug" or not. The funny thing is folks livin' the kind of hardcore ignorant, self-destructive, violent thug life that this almost deified entertainer glorified (and which eventually claimed his own life -- ironic) are more likely to be treated like "niggers" -- incarcerated, shot dead like a dog -- than the "niggers" he so glibly dismisses. The point is, pronounced "nigger," "nigra" or "nigger," the word is offensive as hell. It's gonna take more than some uber full-of-themselves young folks unschooled in and insensitive to their own history to dissociate centuries of negativity -- of violence, lynching, racism, discrimination and hatred -- from the word. The word is no more a positive than the use of "bitch" to refer to a woman. It's nothing but unmitigated ignorance and, often, self-loathing -- an internalization/assimilation of white supremacist dogma -- disguised as bravado. deeceevoice 13:27, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Interwiki

Hapsiainen: I understand your point of view and where it is coming from. Even though you think the word can be used in neutral way in Finland, there is no public media that would agree with you. There is no people in government office that would agree with you. Even in finnish wikimedia, there is not people besides you, who would share you opinion (execpt few vandals). In this article it is said that "nigger" has been neutral term before (Mark Twain etc.) but it is not any more. Exactly same has happen to "neekeri" in finnish. Only problem is that meaning has chaged shorter time ago (some 10-20 years) in finnish and there is still people alive who are not aware of that. They might still use word without knowing better. You would like to defend their right to use that word in neutral way. Well it will not work on that way. If term what I say will hurt you, even thou it is not ment that way, it is not neutral way of saying things. Other problem is that there is still so few black people in finnland, that moust of the people do not need to think what is politically correct way of talking about them. (excuse my english!)--Lemmikkipuu 11:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have to re-post here excerpts from an article about such words by Jukka Korpela. This is my translation:

"Words, that nowadays can be perceived as insulting, are neekeri and "vanhus". Earlier they have be used as descripting words, without valuation or with positive valuation. --- Nowadays many people perceive such words as labelling, even attacking. --- People intend to solve the problem by avoiding such words and replacing them with other expressions. Neekeri becomes mustaor "tummaihoinen" and "vanhus" changes into "ikäihminen" or "seniori".

Sometimes it seems like an easy solution that one stops using word that is stated offensive, and replaces it with another, recommended one. But sometimes not everyone thinks the recommended word is correct, either. Some people may think that it is actually worse. --- The meaning of the new word may be samothing else than intended for some readers. For instace, musta can be interpreted to mean a Roma or even a black-haired person."

I don't think that the Finnish word neekeri is in similar position that English nigger. It isn't only used by old people living some outlying villages. There is critique against the practicality of the Finnish newer words, musta and tummaihoinen. There isn't such critique in the English article about Blacks. But if you want to have interlanguage links, put them between neekeri and negro. The article about Negro has also text about similar, controversial words in other languages. The Finnish neekeri can go into the same bunch. -Hapsiainen 12:48, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

White ignorance, white arrogance that they can presume to use such racist words with impunity -- until, of course, some knowing blackman with a sense of himself hears it and beats the holy crap out of 'em. :p deeceevoice 15:53, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

White Dawg

File:Whitedawg.jpg

White Dawg

White Dawg, the notorious "gangsta rappa" uses the term "nigga" as often as humanly possible, w no known repricussions. I figured this should be mentioned in the article, but I can't find the earlier mention of wigger usage of the word. Please find a way to fit this info, and possibily his funny face in this article as soon as possible. Heck, maybe DC can even arrange for an arsewhup? Cheers, Sam Spade 21:02, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uighurs

The word is pronounced "Weeger", it has no connection whatever with nigger, whigger or anything else, no-one has ever confused a Uighur with an African-American, and the whole paragraph is ridiculous. Adam 00:41, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing absurd about this entry. As a "near-homophone," it qualifies for inclusion. Restored. deeceevoice 03:07, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The whole concept of "near-homophone" is ridiculous. Why don't you list every word in the dictionary which begins with n-i-g or ends with i-g-g-e-r? Bigger, figure, rigger, trigger? For a "near-homophone" to be worth commenting on, you have to show some actual connection, as with the case involving the word "niggardly". When has there been a conflict between Uighur and nigger? Show me a citation. Otherwise I will continue to delete it. Adam 03:43, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You've got a point, and I don't care (frankly :p). I didn't write the section and don't see the value of the entire subsection, particularly. I generally almost always revert something like this once -- to test the intent of the person doing the edit and in case the person who inserted it isn't paying attention the first time; it gives them a little more time to notice the change and respond in defense of their contribution. Hey, if they don't revert your excision of the text, I'm certainly not going to bother doing so. deeceevoice 12:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fan Mail

I just wanted to say that this is a really good balanced article on a very controversial subject. Informative and balanced (IMO). Congratulations to all involved. Gypsum Fantastic 22:35, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Origins

"Two 16th-century uses of the term commonly cited in dictionaries are actually taken from scholarly tracts." Can anyone explain to me how this integrates into the paragraph on origins. It was originally a fragment (no "are") and made no sense to me, so I took it out. Someone else put it back in, so presumably it made sense to them. To my mind, this still breaks up the flow of the paragraph and makes no sense, but I didn't want to start an edit war so I thought I'd post here first. I believe this needs smoothing/integration, but I don't know how to integrate it since I have no idea why the article suddenly refers to "two 16th century uses of the term" and then fails to say what those uses are or what they suggest. Tom 23:24, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

# 4.4 "Nigger" versus "nigga": the new revisionism

Can someone clean this up? looks like a 13 year old wrote it.... If no one minds, I myself can clean it up, as well....IreverentReverend 30 June 2005 21:26 (UTC)

(See Tupac Resurrection)

In an Interview Tupac Shakur gives an explaination to the use of the words "nigger" and "nigga".

Tupac: "Nigge-rs were the guys with ropes around their necks, hangin' out of poles. Nigg-az, where the guys with gold ropes, hangin' out at clubs" 194.125.158.187 (talk) 20:58, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"especially" in opening paragraph 2

The "especially" was removed from the following sentence:

"Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks."

I have restored the "especially"

To remove the "especially" changes the sentence so that it makes the claim that the term "nigger" is only offensive when used by non-blacks. This is an interesting claim which is discussed at some length later in the article in various other guises, but it has no place in the introductory paragraph, especially not as a bald statement of fact. If others agree that "especially" does not belong here, the sentence should be revised simply to something along the lines of, Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet.. This would avoid raising the issue altogether.

That said, I've restored the "especially" because I believe that as written -- "especially when used by non-blacks" -- the sentence represents a neutral point of view.

All would agree, I think, that the term (like any racial slur) is especially offensive when used as an epithet by an outsider against the targeted group. I think the widespread avoidance of the word in print media etc. is evidence that the word itself is considered highly offensive no matter what (even when the speaker is anonymous or unclear). Whether or not the term is offensive when used within the group is up to more debate -- debate covered in discussion which belongs later in the article. Of course, I would argue that existence of said debate is evidence that at least some people consider the word highly offensive even (or perhaps especially!) when used by other blacks -- there are quotes to this effect in the article as well. Tom 1 Jul 2005 11:45 (UTC)

I, as a white person, am offended by the word, ESPECIALLY when used by "blacks" why? because of their skin color, it is less offensive. That in and of itself is freaking racist. IreverentReverend 2 July 2005 05:52 (UTC)

I second that. MessedRocker 23:57, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this really does need to be fixed "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks" should be "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet," otherwise this article is racist by saying skin color matters in what words you can use. IreverentReverend 3 July 2005 23:41 (UTC)

Frankly, skin color and any other number of factors do matter in what words you use. There will always be contention on whether or not it is appropriate, but look at Dave Chappelle who uses the word nigger througout his comedy, and who in a 60 Minutes interview straight out said that it was ok for him and other black comics to use it and not ok for a white comic to do the same. Judging by the content of the performances of a number of black artists, a large contingent of the black community agrees with this assesment. Admittedly, not all do, as Bill Cosby has come out directly against the use of the word nigger by blacks. It's worth pointing out that blacks are not alone in this double standard. There are plenty of comedians, (jewish, asian, latino) who play off of racial sterotypes all the time, but if a white comedian were to do the exact same act, it would probably be considered racist and offensive. Another example, gays can generally get away with calling each other faggots, but it would be inappropriate for anyone else to do so. You can argue that all of these examples are unfair, particularly to whites, but they are, for the most part, true. --CVaneg 5 July 2005 19:31 (UTC)

It is not the fairness I am debating, but the downright racism of the article. To say one word is ok for one person and not ok for another based on SKIN COLOR is downright RACIST, something wikipedia should avoid. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 02:46 (UTC)

The article does not say that the word is offensive when used by non-blacks: it says that it is considered offensive when so used. The former is an opinion, the latter is a fact. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 02:56 (UTC)

It is "considered" offensive no matter WHO uses it, for the very reason Chappelle states: skin color matters! Implying that it is less racist for African Americans to use the word is wrong to do. Perhaps "Generally, "nigger" is considered a highly offensive racial epithet, especially when used by non-blacks, by the black community, and that is racist to the non-black society" or something along those lines. As it is now, it implies it is cosidered less racist when "blacks" say it. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:11 (UTC)

Implying that it is less racist for African Americans to use the word is wrong to do. We're not implying that. We're saying that some people believe that. Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:24 (UTC)

Then say "some people think the term is less racist when used by blacks" not that it is racist "especially when used by non-blacks". While the intended meaning is the same, the former does not imply that it is WORSE for non-blacks to say it. It is the conotative meaning that matters here. IreverentReverend 6 July 2005 03:30 (UTC)

"Is considered" does not mean "is". Mark¹ 6 July 2005 03:35 (UTC)

Looks like we're on the verge of an edit war here. As I originally stated, I really don't like the version currently on the page. I believe it should either have the "especially" intact (which implies it is always generally considered offensive, but moreso when used by non-blacks) or should have the entire "when used by non-blacks" clause removed. As it currently stands, it implies it is not considered offensive when used by blacks, although as stated earlier in this discussion, it clearly is considered offensive by many regardless of who uses it.

I continue to contend that keeping the especially is the best solution -- I imagine even those, like Bill Cosby, who prefer blacks don't use the word would recognize it as more offensive when used as a slur by a white supremacist than when used by e.g. a black comedian. I am unmoved by IreverentReverend's claims that this makes the article "racist." It seems to me perfectly clear that the offensiveness of a racial slur is dependant on the race of those using it and patently absurd to claim that pointing out this difference represents some kind anti-white racism. Tom 6 July 2005 20:25 (UTC)

I think that the current version by Tom is good, for all the reasons he and everyone else gives --CVaneg 6 July 2005 20:34 (UTC)

Intent makes a word racist, not skin color of the speaker. To say it is automatically more racist if a white person uses it is racist. To say it is more racist when used in a derogetory term is not. If you were to go onto a random BBS online, and see someone saying "nigger please" and "nigger" this and "nigger" that is it racist? Would your opinion of that change if I told you the author was white? What if I said he was black? Asian? It shouldn't as, according to this article, those appear to be ok uses. Would it be racist if instead, you found the phrase "shut up, you are nothing but a dumb-ass nigger"? was that racist? It is suddenly NOT racist if the author was black? Get with the program. If you believe the color of your skin makes a word more or less racist, you are racist. Hell if you believe the color of skin MATTERS in a social setting you are racist. Lets move into modern times. IreverentReverend 7 July 2005 16:36 (UTC)

I think the point being made here is that it is far easier for people to misunderstand intent when the speaker is not black. Also, we should make a distinction between racism and offense. Racism is something internally defined, that is to say, a given person is racist if he or she makes certain judgements solely on the basis or race, on the other hand offense is something that is defined by the people around you. So it's entirely possible that a white person uses the word nigger without any racist intent, but that does not mean that the people around him or her will not be more offended than they would if a black person used the word (with racist intent or not). --CVaneg 7 July 2005 20:38 (UTC)

So... you are saying that people are judging others based on the color of their skin, and using that to decide whether a word was racist or not? Gee that sound pretty darn racist.... like I have been saying.... IreverentReverend 8 July 2005 05:57 (UTC)

In fact, that is exactly what I am saying. Society, at least to some extent, is racist. Regardless of your own lack of any racial preconceptions, it would be foolish of us to assert that all of society is completely color-blind. --CVaneg 8 July 2005 17:10 (UTC)

You should take it back out, because it is only offensive when non-blacks use it to refer to themselves. It is offensive because we were called nigger from the time indentured servitude was changed to chattel slavery for Africans, and even today we are still called nigger, with the same intent and meaning it had back in the 1700s. This little game you folks are playing would be hilarious if you were not so ignorant of the truth about this subject.

A non-black person cannot ever be a nigger, because they have never been subjected to chattel slavery. Forget all this stuff about when it's appropriate for you to use it, because it is never appropriate. You only use it when you wish to remind a black person that we were owned by whites for several generations. It's meaning is immutable. When a black person hears it, he or she is reminded of the hell that was slavery.

Yes, whites were indentured servants at one time. The institution came to America from Europe, and Africans were also indentured until the lust for profit won over the humanity of those who were served. Because we looked so different, and spoke unknown languages, we were called savages, monkeys and worse, and it became "the white man's burden" to civilize us through slavery.

How can you even pretend to share this history, these nightmares that arise whenever a white, or a Mexican, Jew, European or Asian calls a Black Person a nigger? How ignorant you must be to call a Black Person racist because we will not allow you to control us with that word any longer? Do you expect Hispanics to tolerate you calling them spics? Can you call a German a Kraut without risking getting your ass thoroughly whipped? So why do you expect anything different from us?

Now, I'm sure what I've said will be ignored, and you will go on pretending that you are experts in the usage and history of this word, but I'm duty bound to clear this up:

Niger and Nigeria were the main slave trade ports in West Africa. Like Nigeria, Niger is pronounced "Ny-ger". We were called Nigerians before Greece was great and Rome became an empire. Of course, sailors were not known for their educations, and nigger is a bastardized form of Niger/Nigerian. Negro, on the other hand, came into the English language from Spanish.

Nigga, like hip-hop, is a style of rap, which is a descendant of verbal history.

I'm not going to provide citations and references just yet, but you can see the change from indentured servant to chattel slavery in many places, http://spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASlavery.htm is just one of them.

So please, stop pretending and regurgitating things you've heard without researching them. Hopefully, you'll accept what I've said in a generous spirit, and allow it to put these questions and false debates to rest. You don't have to be the 7 blind men describing an elephant any longer. Juan 00:33, September 10, 2005 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You write as if you yourself had felt a whip on the back instead of having been summoned into existence at some stage in the later 20C. Or more accurately, like a feminist bemoaning 5000 years of male oppression as if I myself had done it and better damn sure make up for it. Thing is, I'm me. Never oppressed nobody. The only hold 'slavery' has over you is in feelings of impotence, rage and inferiority. And bing! The racists have you. They just burrowed into your mind and grabbed you. You gotta liberate yourself from this negative thinking.

As to slavery. Africans (Moroccans) were still enslaving white Europeans in raids until the 19th C. They took them to Morocco and were overseen by black people. The slavers were called the Barbary Corsairs and they were destroyed, finally, after several centuries by the good old US Navy. And for the record, when the Romans conquered England in the 1st Century AD they used black troops and then enslaved the population and lived under Black-Roman, becoming more and more white for 4 centuries. And boy. Am I still angry at that? No. I was summoned into existence at some stage in the late 20C. Never happened to me. hickster 194.112.59.114 (talk) 02:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Other uses

People use 'nigger' to refer to people from the middle east in the term 'sandnigger'. I wonder if anyone else thought that should be added to the page or not. --PirateMonkey 7 July 2005 21:56 (UTC)

Robert Byrd quote without citation

I've removed the bold text from the following sentence: "When it was translated into English, it was published under the title White Niggers of America (incidentally, former Klu Klux Klan member and current Democratic U.S. Senator of West Virginia Robert Byrd used the term "white niggers" when asked in an interview about the state of race relations in America)."

I have no doubt that Byrd said that, but a) the article doesn't specify when and where Byrd said it, or provide a citation for it and b) it makes no sense as a parenthetical clause of that sentence. Please put the quote back if a citation can be found and note the citation under References at the bottom of the article. Thanks, Fernando Rizo 9 July 2005 02:44 (UTC)

The GNAA

Some editors seem not to like a link to the GNAA in this article. Can I give the reason why I think it is highly relevant? The article centres on the fact that the word nigger is normally regarded as highly offensive. The GNAA is an example of deliberate, but non-racist, use of the word nigger to cause offence, something not mentioned in the article. I can't think of another example but if there were one, then that would have a place. Having mentioned it in the text obviates the need to put a 'see also' section in the article and I have moved the reference, but in my opinion, provided the GNAA article itself is kept (which is looking increasingly likely), it has a relevance to the contemporary usage of the word nigger. For the record I am not a member of the GNAA and I would consider anyone who implies that I am as making a personal attack. David 25px | Talk 21:19, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

Good point there, when referring to the offending part of "nigger" (as opposed to the racist part of "nigger") MessedRocker 00:03, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Howard J. Ehrlich quote

The Ethnophaulisms section looked like this prior to my edit:

Social scientist Howard J. Ehrlich has said "ethnophaulisms are of three types: disparaging nicknames (chink, dago, nigger, and so forth); explicit group devaluations ("Jew him down," or "niggering the land"); and irrelevant ethnic names used as a mild term of disparagement ("jewbird" for cuckoos having prominent beaks or "Irish confetti" for bricks thrown in a fight). Virtually all racial and ethnic groups have been the subject of racial slurs; but few, if any, racial or ethnic groups have had as many racial slurs associated with them as blacks.

As you can see, the Erlich quote has not end quotation mark, and I don't personally know where the reference comes from, so I've removed the quotation mark. Fernando Rizo 23:30, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

what does it mean?

The word "nigger" is an extremely controversial term used in many English-speaking countries, including the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, and Australia (but also in other countries where English is known such as Germany, specifically) I do not understand it. 213.76.152.186 (talk) 10:34, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

(Assuming you are a native English speaker) Get on a plane, fly to Frankfurt airport. Disembark, then go to a concession stand and say loudly and clearly "God, I'm glad that flight's over - the plane was *full* of niggers!". Observe the look of shock and disbelief on the face of the concession stand owner. German nationals (generally) speak and comprehend English well enough that they are aware of and understand the full impact of the word "nigger". This may well be the case in other countries where English is a popular second language. I suppose the point is that the word has force in places where English is not the first language? 85.210.33.131 (talk) 05:08, 18 September 2005

Nigger, racist if used by white people?

The term is only really racist when another descriptive word is placed infront of it. So If someone said "You stupid Nigger" that would be racist but If someone said "I saw a Nigger" that wouldn't be racist. If someone done a impression of a Stereotype Black person that would be racist. So anyway if "Nigger" came from "Negro" which means "Black" is the word "Black" really a racist term? --82.152.193.24 (talk) 23:47, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Your logic is flawed. All of the uses of the term you mentioned would be racist. --Alabamaboy 00:14, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Your logic is flawed. The colour "Black" is not racist. -- 82.152.193.24 (talk) 02:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

This word was created to describe a group of people which was defined by race, so how can it ever not be racist? It is racist in all of its usages. Marc, you are incorrect: it does not come from the word Negro.

I want to ask all of you why you are pretending that "Nigger" means anything but "a Black person"? It has always meant that, it has never been "legitimately" used any other way, and denying that it's sole purpose is to describe Black People simply muddles the truth. I have never been called a nigger in any other context, and do not ever expect to.

Not only is the word a tool of racism, it is the primary tool of racism. Denying that it is such is like denying that you breathe.

Juan 10:53, September 8, 2005 (UTC)

Troll. Garglebutt / (talk) 11:16, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Ok then the term Nigger was a misspelling of the country Niger were the black slaves were mostly from. It is like calling a person from China, Chinese! It is logic! Just because it is describing a race of people doesn't mean it is racist. And Garglebutt just because your opinion is different to mine doesn't make me a Internet Troll. 82.152.197.247 (talk) 21:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Uh, yeah. It does... 24.127.63.68 (talk) 07:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Nigger is a racist word because of its history. It was used to refer to african-americans when they were under bondage of slavery and Jim Crow. White people who use it today usually have pejorative intent. --Defenestrate 18:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

More modern usage

I have found personally, and also in much black stand-up, that nigger/nigga is beginning to become the black equivalent of white trash. This is especially evidenced in the infamous/notorious Chris Rock routine, Niggas vs. Black People, which he seems to stand behind as a true political statement as opposed to purely a comedy routine. Perhaps the "evolution" of the word ought to be addressed in the article? 70.243.32.96 (talk) 03:14, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

????

I do not fully understand the term. If a person is born white, but eventually goes black maybe from a tan, would he/she be allowed to say it? What if he was muslim? 60.226.31.60 (talk) 07:26, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

The word goes both ways the word nigger has been used in reference to white people as well. 206.39.12.233 (talk) 16:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

It all depends on if that person is a mixed breed or something. Because anyone can grow up like rap music and go black if that's how you want to say it but if there not black of light skin or mid skin just white the word (Nigger) or (Nigga) should not be said around black people me I get offend by it personally. 209.7.119.175 (talk) 14:33, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

The word "nigger" is derogatory any way you 'slice' it. To say 'I saw a nigger', means you saw a black person, but you are referring to that black person you saw in a derogatory sense. You need not add 'stupid' to make it derogatory. ..since a 'nigger', to people who use it, and HEAR it, already is 'suggesting' that the black being referred to is ALREADY stupid (& all the OTHER derogatory characteristics that are implied when using the word, to include lazy, poor hygiene, etc., is why he (or she) was being referred to as a 'nigger'. So let's not 'sugar-coat' it. 66.57.94.92 (talk) 04:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

"I do not fully understand the term. If a person is born white, but eventually goes black maybe from a tan..."

WTF?!? Not possible! No Way! No How! 24.127.63.68 (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

There was a case in Apartheid South Africa, a white woman turned black, really quite dark black and was forced to register as 'coloured' (not black) and live, etc. in their neighbourhoods.

Similarly, what about Michael Jackson? Can he say it? Or albinos?

...sometimes i despair of humanity... 194.112.59.141 (talk) 01:21, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is nigger "controversial"?

It's offensive, end of story. 129.85.35.49 (talk) 09:28, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It is offensive because it referes back to the enslavement of many black people's ancestors. 71.106.38.156 (talk) 06:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Pedantic point but nonetheless....

I believe that E.S Nigger Brown was an international Rugby League player, not Rugby (this term usually signifies Rugby Union in Australia) Charmanestar 06:14, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

possible addition

'In the 1997 film Gridlock'd, Tim Roth's character justifies his use of the word by referring to it as "a term of fuckin' endearment".'

I think this should be added somewhere. 86.136.113.191 (talk) 10:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Recent Revisions

I'd like to get a better idea of where Administrators stand on the n-word being used as a positive or in a lighter sense. It is a precarious word to use, but in that same idiom, it is what has made the term open for satire (as in Chappelle's Show or The Boondocks). All things considered, someone like Richard Pryor would never have had the career he did if he had tried to avoid using the word. And, I have known particular cases where wiggers have taken the term used towards them as a sign of acceptance, and thus, seen it as a positive. I realize an earlier statement with the same sentiments was deleted, either because it wasn't placed well or because it was a touchy point; however, I believe the article should pay some respect to the fact that the word can be used in a lighter or comedic sense, and even to some a positive, outside of simply the "popular culture section". The "New revisionism" portion should include it as well, or there should be a new section altogether, to drive the point that many who use the word can be using it in a less serious manner. It seems the word is perhaps being overthought to the point of driving people crazy. 66.251.25.105 (talk) 05:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Etymology

I can not edit this article at the moment since it is protected, however the second paragraph must be titled Etymology. (eg the paragraph that starts w/ "The word originates in from French..."). This seems like a term mostly originating in U.S. Could someone take a look at those 1882 cards [1] and determine if they are of historical/etymological significance? This user has left wikipedia 21:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Even if it originated in the US, it could still come from French. The word 'television' comes from Greek and Latin, not Rome and Greece. The form 'nigger' represents a form of negro that used to be common in English. It derives from French nègre, which itself derives from Spanish negro. garik 16:50, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Near homophones

"As such words are easily mistaken for "nigger," their use is frowned upon and sometimes seen as offensive."

By who? Illiterates? Niggard is a perfectly good word. How can anyone take offence? Avalon 11:08, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you and was glad to see someone else picked up on this. It is very offensive when someone tries to dictate nonsensical rules. I guess the use of any word could be "frowned upon"--like bigger--and "sometimes seen as offensive", even though the people who have taken offense were ignorant of the meaning of the word "niggardly". The word "niggard" could be offensive if it were intended to be a substitute for "nigger". Just because someone somewhere considers something offensive does not make it "frowned upon" except by the people who see it as offensive.

The phrase could read, "their use is frowned upon by people who are ignorant of the words' meanings and thus see them as offensive".

To illustrate, I have no problem with British people using the word "faggot" to refer to a cigarette--even though it's the SAME word as that which has an offensive meaning "homosexual" and not just a NEAR-homophone. To then say that to use the word faggot (cigarette) is frowned upon is ridiculous.

Conversely, if someone used even a nonsensical word in a manner intended to be offensive, it could be taken as offensive. The offensiveness is not inherent to the word but in the intent of the speaker and/or in the perception of the hearer and that is why a word's offensive or non-offensive status can change over time or in different contexts. THB 03:27, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Just a minor point - British people never call a cigarette a "faggot" - you are thinking of "fag", which is a very common word for a cigarette. A "faggot" is a type of round ball of minced and processed meat usually eaten with chips and peas. TharkunColl 10:11, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

sociologists and gangster rap

I removed the following text:

Sociologists commonly point to black-on-black violence and its association with gangsta rap -- the phenomenon most responsible for the rise in the revisionist use of the term among some black youth -- as a manifestation of the self-destructive, self-loathing mind-set referred to above.

It may be that sociological studies have found a link, but I'm sure that even social scientists dispute the correlation between gangster rap and violence. I'm interested in reading your sources, so please cite them. --Defenestrate 23:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali Misquoted

According to the article on Muhammad Ali the following is a misquote:

"In 1967, Muhammad Ali explained his refusal to be drafted to serve in the Vietnam War by saying, "I got nothing against no Viet Cong. No Vietnamese ever called me 'nigger,'"."

What he actually said is in the following excerpt[?]

"It was also in this same year that he refused to serve in the American army during the Vietnam War as a conscientious objector, because "War is against the teachings of the Holy Koran. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers." Ali also famously said "I ain't got no quarrel with those Vietcong." (This is often misquoted as "No Vietnamese ever called me a nigger)". Ali was stripped of his championship belt and his license to box, and was sentenced to five years in prison. The sentence was overturned on appeal four years later, by a unanimous decision of the Supreme Court."

Did he serve 4 years in prison, if he did was he compensated for having been "wrongfully" emprisoned? Also I am curious to know on what grounds the Supreme Court overturned his sentence ! I hope it's not just because of popular opinion ! (would be unfair to the unpopular people who did hard time for the same thing !) ~~wikipedia at domn.net~~ 216.113.99.10 (talk) 00:55, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitions section

What's going on with the "Definitions" section in this article? It doesn't appear to be very encylopedic in style. --Takeel 01:09, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Used in UK?

I would dispute that this term is commonly used in the UK. Maybe by a tiny minority, but the more common pejorative term in the UK is "Black B..." I've never in my 42 years heard anyone in the UK use this term, even virulent racists us BB, rather than this "Americanism". Camillus (talk) 03:34, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

The word Nigger probably became offensive than the "C-word" in the UK a few years ago (political correctness). However this fact has been picked up by black youths who now use the term freely within there own groups. The definition has changed somewhat, rather than meaning the colour brown it means "Lazy person", or someone who is just "Ambitionless".

In London suburbs you can hear the term used freely (by blacks) who obviously take some delight in the ownership of the word, since white people have a reluctance to use the word.

Whether the word will come back into the mainstream is quite possible. I could call a white friend a "Lazy Nigger" without causing offense, if this new definition is picked up by media (TV/Films) then the stigmatism surrounding the word (mostly seeming to come from American usage) should disapear.

I'd agree with CPMcE that if (in the UK) you wished to purposely offend in a racist manner, you might use "Black Bastard". Simononly2 20:00, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, its use in the UK would more commonly get you laughed at, much like calling somebody a "jerk off", "nigger" sounds a bit weak and ineffectual as it's an overt Americanism. I don't think I've ever heard it used to describe a black person in the UK, although my White and Asian friends at university and I used to refer to inanimate objects or difficult situations as "niggers" and occasionally insult eachother. --JamesTheNumberless 17:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Opinion?

"For example: using "the N-word" in place of "Nazi" would rob younger generations of the full gravity of the Holocaust."

Isn't this opinion? Genjix 13:02, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

The rate of vandalism to this article is very high. Would it help the situation any if edits were restricted to registered users? --Takeel 13:19, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I believe it should and have added the Sprotect, much like the George Bush article, this article is highly sensitive and emotionally charged and needs to be protected. Jeffrey 02:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This must be among the most vandalized pages indeed. The last revert did not restore the section on etymology however, please use popup revert from the last correct version! LHOON 05:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a word like any other

I am white and the word nigger has a specific meaning to me. I grew up in a predominantly white town in NJ. I lived directly across the street from a A.M.E Zion Baptist church - "the Black Church". I learned that a "nigger" was a low-down scumbag of a person - who happened to be black. A person is not a nigger just because he or she happnes to be black. And while I have used the word nigger, I don't know that I ever used it without prefacing it with "piece of shit..." It has been so rare for me to use it, I don't know that I can even think of the last time I said it.

Nigger is offensive if it is used offensively, just like "ass" or "bitch". Examples: "I have an ass to plow my field." "She has a nice ass." "Don't be an ass!" "That test was a bitch." "I bred my dog with Mr. Wilson's bitch." "You're a bitch!"

The argument or position that blacks don't say "nigger", but rather "nigga" is a bunch of crap. Put a slang on it, but it's the same word. It's also a bunch of crap that only blacks can say nigger or nigga. It's how you use the word.

We know that nigger is used as an insult (to say the least), but it is also used as a sign of friendship ("He's my nigger/nigga"). I don't know this definition. That is, I don't have anyone in my life that I would call "my nigger/nigga".

There have been moves to remove books from reading lists and libraries that contain the word "nigger". Would you take To Kill a Mockingbird off the shelves because the word "nigger" is in the book. How else does Atticus teach his daughter, Scout, that what is being said in this case is very wrong. Thomasb113 00:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Should a photograph of a nigger/s be posted?

Many entries on Wikipedia include a photo to help people better comprehend the meaning of the entry. Should a photograph of a nigger/s be submitted for this entry? Any questions, comments? Spookwaffe 17:56, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that we should add a picture of a negro because the word nigger has been used by white people to refer to other whites (both in negative and positive senses). It has also been used by people to refer to dark-skinned people in general who don't necessarily share physical characteristics with blacks in America. For example, it has been used in Australia to refer to aboriginals. Tamils could technically be called "niggers" because they're dark-skinned, even though they're from Southern India. I also think it's very obvious what the word means when it says that the word nigger refers to black-skinned people. This makes such a picture unnecessary, as well.--Primetime 14:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Who would be a good nigger to post a picture of? 70.231.228.116 (talk) 08:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Page vandalized

Someone wiped out the whole page. You really need to restrict this to registered users or else it's gonna happen again. 63.40.250.56 (talk) 15:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above unsigned comment that edits to this article should be restricted to logged-in users. The vandalism is very heavy. --Takeel 00:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I added the protect, I agree that it needs to stay because the Vandalism is rampent. Jeffrey 04:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It looks like your protect template was removed because it wasn't run through Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. I have requested protection there for this article once before and my request was rejected. The rejecting admin said there wasn't enough vandalism. I don't agree. --Takeel 14:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Censorship

To my mind the word nigger is racist period. But I still think it's stupid to censor the word when reporting on somthing. For example this:

"A Washington Post article on Strom Thurmond's 1948 candidacy for President of the United States went so far as to replace it with the periphrasis 'the less-refined word for black people'."

Now that's just stupid, I can't imagine any rational person being upset at the Post for printing "Nigger" in relation to Thurmond's candidacy. 151.205.110.152 (talk) 03:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Reversion

Hi,

My sourced additions to the article were just reverted and no explanation was given, so I'm re-instating them.

Primetime 05:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Former USSR

In Russia and the former Soviet states (Ukraine, Armenia, Georgia, Belarus etc.) the word "negr" is used to refer to people of sub-Saharan African ancestry. It is not a derogatory term. To US ears it of course sounds like "nigger". Shouldn't this be mentioned?--Eupator 19:45, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

True for Estonian 'neeger' also. There are people though, who, influenced by English language, now consider the word derogatory. Some suggest, we should prefer the word 'must' ('black'), which has been used to refer to people from Caucasia so far (they've got quite dark skin you know, American use of 'Caucasian' sounds peculiar for Estonians at least), or 'Afro-American' which is plain silly, because most of the people referred by term 'neeger' have nothing to do with Americas... So I guess that the only way to be politically correct "globally" is to use terms like 'people of sub-Saharan African ancestry'... --194.126.101.137 (talk) 13:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Delete this page

This article is absolutely offensive and has no place on Wikipedia. It should be deleted and replaced with an article that does not spell the actual word. -- 68.22.252.165 (talk) 03:13, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

If people don't stop removing my tags that this page should be reviewed I will have to find someone myself and I won't stop until this article's name is changed and all uses of the N word are removed. 68.22.252.165 (talk) 03:40, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Simply put: this will not happen, so it is a waste of time for you to try. While you are welcome to suggest ways to clean up this article, it is unlikely that the article will be redacted to remove the word. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

It's a word that gets used everyday in the English language by (at least) thousands of people. Being politically correct to the point of absurd censorship as your recommendation to delete this article suggests is counter-productive. Also, the suggestion to replace this article with one that doesn't spell the actual word made me laugh. Real hard. -- 24.43.202.109 (talk) 10:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

How is it offensive? It's informative. A word is only offensive if it is said and actually meant to cause offense. Do you just want to pretend the word doesn't exist? Will not spelling it out remove the connotations? We all know what its supposed to be when we read a censored word, so what's the point in censoring it? Should we call this article "the N word"? I suggest you please stop being.. well, stupid. --Casiotone^talk 13:45, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The article is about 10,000 times longer than it needs to be, so it should be severely truncated and reduced in size to one or two sentences. Superslum 15:35, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that the article read this way: Nigger is a word of slang that is the commonest word of slang used ubiquitously in the United States in place of the accurate word Negro. Nigger is used to "signify" on colored people.

There you have the succinct, terse, accurate, and adequate passage. You don't need 10,000 words, links, citations, quotations, references, cross-references, sources, and other gobble-de-gook.

(Webster's Collegiate Dictionary defines gobble-dy-gook or gobble-de-gook this way: "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon"). Stop all of the signifying on the colored people that is completely out of control in Wikipedia. Superslum 01:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is here to teach people things they don't know. Everyone knows what you just wrote. I know a few of the things in the article are not widely known (e.g., old spellings, the sense of being used as a friendly term among white people, etc.) Your abstract statements sure haven't convinced me that the article should be shortened. You're going to need to give some actual examples and explanations of exactly why they should not be in the article including what deleting them would accomplish.--Primetime 03:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Dago, Spic, and Kike are three articles that are properly sized for ordinary topics called "ethnic slurs." Why is it necessary to explain and to illustrate "nigger" ad infinitum? Superslum 00:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

NO entries at all are on the talk page at Dago. Why are there so many at Nigger? Superslum 16:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

You MUST be kidding. It has often been said, and is widely agreed upon, that knowledge of history is the only hope we have of not repeating the mistakes held therein. Do you honestly believe that ignoring the mistakes we have made will make them disappear? We must aknowledge usage of the word in a historical context as well as its contemporary appropriation by the people it claims to represent.

If you have such a big problem with the term, you should be happy that it's being discussed so extensively - in a manner which allows it to be examined and re-examined. In a way which allows it a chance at over-coming the traditional ways in which it has (mis-) represented diasporic african-american population. 216.58.18.235 (talk) 05:44, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Usage by members of other ethnic groups

In the article it claims that the use of the word 'nigga' is still found to be offensive by blacks if said by non-blacks, shouldn't it be noted that several hispanic rappers have used the term without much criticism if any i.e Big Pun, Fat Joe. Brodey 06:13, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

But the article does mention Fat Joe. Phiwum 08:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

first sentence assumes reader isn't black

Nigger ... [snip] ... is a derogatory term used to refer to black people.

This sentence assumes the reader isn't black, since the word often isn't considered derogatory when used by black people. It's even mentioned later in the article that black people often use the word "nigga" without any negative connotations. This sentence should be appended with something like "unless used by black people, in which case it is often neutral." Please remember that we black people also read and contribute to Wikipedia. 4.226.252.19 (talk) 04:34, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Understand that just because some find it not offensive in the Black community there are others that do. -- Gnosis 01:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes and on behalf of all computer programmers I object to the article on software developers assuming that the reader is not a software developer. How dare they! Furthermore it is utterly disgraceful that the article on Svalbard assumes that the reader doesn't live there - preposterous! --JamesTheNumberless 17:21, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

So are you saying that a "nigger" is relative to a black person as a software developer is relative to a software developer? That's quite an analogy to make!--Ccosta 08:06, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He made no such analogy.

Gnosis claimed that the first sentence assumed the reader is not black. Whether JamesTheNumberless's analogy works or not, I don't see how the first sentence assumes anything about the reader's race. It does not refer to the reader's usage of the term or anything similar. Phiwum 13:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Good article

Hey, I was amazed to see this article here, and I read every word. I'm fairly new to Wikipedia, and I think this article is a great illustration of Wikipedia's value. Other reference sources don't even mention the word. Wikipedia mentions it, talks about it from many angles, dissects the bad, presents the rest in neutral terms, etc. Even references the book Nigger, which is a pretty good thoughtful book (I've read it. Imagine the awkward moment when I asked the public librarian about it over the telephone), but not as broad as the Wikipedia article. Lou Sander 02:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

please don't use the word "neutral"; the term and idea behind it are totally bogus. no one is neutral. the world is full of subjective realities - situated knowledges. oh, and please don't give the ridiculous, catch22-causing, universalist argument that such a comment is universal in itself. get a life. 216.58.18.235 (talk) 05:35, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

"Totally bogus." How thoughtful. You must be a true intellectual. Maybe you are bell hooks, considering your use of upper case letterz. Lou Sander 07:43, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Dago is an "ethnic slur"

Why is the talk page at Dago still blank? Nigger contains 10,000 times more comments and opinions than does Dago. What causes so much spellinding interest in Nigger? The word is a common expression, so why is there so much curiosity about it? Nigger is a very dull subject of no interest to me. Please place some comments at Dago, Spic, and Kike, too. Superslum 05:49, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Could be because it's a British word and the Brits on Wikipedia are either not very well represented in numbers or not particularly hung up on ethnic slurs. --JamesTheNumberless 17:24, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have submitted a comment to Talk:Dago. There was a vacuum on the page. It was spooky (I think). Superslum 18:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Beastie Boys

Removed this content which I couldn't verify: "The Beastie Boys, an all-white hip-hop group, were forced off-stage after using the word in a non-hostile context to refer to their audience." Did this really happen? When and where? SpuriousQ 01:21, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.beastieboys.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=64443

Quotes a Spin article from 1998, See posts 5, 6, and 7 for scans of the pages.

Doctor Dre: I was onstage at the famous we-almost got-killed concert at the Apollo Theater, opening for Run-D.M.C. Everybody was like, "Look, whatever you do, don't say 'nigger'"-because it was part of what we did, before a lot of people were doing that in hip-hop. They didn't mean it in a negative way, they meant it as something warm and generous to their audience. But Russell grabs me and says, "Don't let 'em do it." And I'm like, "What am I gonna do? I'm in the back DJing." So they're out there doing "She's on It," and Ad-Rock says, "All you niggers, wave your hands in the air!" I've never seen so many blank stares! Mike looks back like he doesn't know what to do, but Yauch was like, I'm out of here! And Ad-Rock's going "Come on y'all, come on y'all," and nobody's waving back. They finished the song, dropped the mics, and ran off the stage. I'm still out there, and everybody's kind of looking at me. I run upstairs to the dressing rooms, and everything's gone. They weren't even on the tour bus. They all jumped in a cab and went home. Zeabrid 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, nice research, that looks legit. I'll put the content back in. SpuriousQ 10:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Old usage was also racist

It's not true that the original use of the word was not offensive. Basically, with very few exceptions, Europeans that came into contact with blacks were racists, therefore their language was racist. Furthermore, to systematically class a variety of folks based on skin tone is least common denominator ignorant; the language manufactured the slavery, which was the commodification of different human beings and the treatment of different people, from different tribal groupings, alike.

Why this respect for long-dead blackbirders who needed a single term for people that could then be enslaved?

At no time was the word neutral. It expressed hatred and contempt in the very act of ignoring human personalities and human differences.

Let's see, you're a chief's son looking forward to the house of your bridegroom when a bunch of scurvy drunken red-faced Micks come along and says you are a nigger, and as such fit for nothing else than picking cotton in the USA.

Sure, polite society in the early 19th century, characters out of Jane Austen, or Masterpiece Theater, oh so politely called 'em "niggers". But let's ignore the fancy clothes. Insofar as the wealth of these people was based on genocide, they were bums and racists. Fuck 'em. Spinoza1111 10:13, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I see you have a very neutral view of this situation. The initial explorers who first came into contact with black Africans were not on the whole racists. The slavery based racism you are describing did not develop until at least 100 years after the first contact between sub-Saharan Africa and Western Europe. This is quite obvious from numerous primary sources, which speak about black people in very positive terms and even suggest the possible advantages of intermarrying with them to produce stronger offspring. If you are going to assert such a limited view of history, then at least provide a reliable source for it. --Jackyd101 21:19, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

>to systematically class a variety of folks based on skin tone is least common denominator ignorant< But it's no worse than your use of the word 'blacks'. Garik 00:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Etymology again

As far as the etymology of this word, I believe it came from Sanskrit actually. The "Aryan race" that conquered India 8000 years ago and formed the ruling class of India for thousands of years until the Muslim invasions. The word "nigger" is actually derived from the word "naga" which means snake people and was commonly used in reference to the so called Dravidian peoples indigneous to India who worshiped the snake deity and were dark skinned. 137.229.244.182 (talk) 23:36, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Kudos

IMHO, this article is a tribute to the excellence of Wikipedia. It's a truly excellent expostion of a subject that lesser sources won't touch. And what a miracle that the constant vandalism is kept almost totally in check by the flock of unpaid folk who watch over Wiki-land. Truly amazing. Lou Sander 21:07, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Use of Word by People of varying races

I think this article is excellent, but one thing I feel it is missing is a proper section on how offensive it is when used by people of varying ethnicities. Round my part of England, loads of the black guys call each other nigger without meaning offense, and a few white guys they respect can get away with it, but most white people couldn't get away with it. A good example being the film Rush Hour, where Chris Tucker goes into his cousin's bar and starts chatting to the barman with the phrase "Whassup, my nigger?". Rock leaves the room, and Jackie Chan attempts to start a conversation with the barman using the same phrase and is attacked by most of the black characters in the bar. Noit88 15:01, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Should the article link to "cracker"?

There should be a link to the "white cracker" page. A page which, unlike this one, proudly displays a photo of a cracker. 70.231.228.116 (talk) 08:15, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

England/Ireland

If someone in America is called African-American what are they called in England or Ireland? 62.252.144.12 (talk) 02:43, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Afro-Caribbean is the closest equivalent, I suppose. Though if they're actually American, then African-American will do. Most Brits (of any colour) say black without worrying too much about hyphenated descriptions. 86.132.137.150 (talk) 03:46, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The term 'African-American' strikes me as somewhat problematic. Does it cover white Africans who become American? What about Egyptians and other Semitic Africans who settle in the States? Admittedly 'black' is not without its difficulties as well but, to me at least, it seems preferable on either side of the Atlantic. Americans may like to correct me! garik 01:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This Yank has also been puzzled about non-black Africans who come to America. The term "African-American" doesn't seem to apply to them. Teresa Heinz-Kerry, wife of a recent presidential candidate, is a white woman from Mozambique. Call her an African-American, and people look at you as though you're crazy. Occasionally people who want to make a racist joke object to the term because it disrespects the Arabs of the Maghreb. I teach a lot of A-A young adults, and for the most part they don't at all mind being called black. We have black people and white people in our classes. Very occasionally a black person will correct me and ask me to use the term "African-American." In fact, I think it only happened once, in seven years of part-time teaching. Lou Sander 02:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Chinky?!

'Similarly, other portmanteaus formed from nigger, also considered offensive, are used to describe other groups. These include combining nigger with Chinky, (Chinese), to produce chigger,'

I'm not sure we really need the 'Chinky'. I suggest the more simple 'These include combining nigger with Chinese to produce chigger'. I don't suppose many people look at the word 'Chigger' and think 'oh Chigger, that must be a combination of Nigger and Chinky'. Chinky is not common parlance for many people. Maybe my Grandma, and that's about it. In fact, if you keep Chinky in there, the article reads like my Grandma probably wrote it. I made an exec decision and changed it, hope no-one minds! 88.104.163.180 (talk) 02:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Snigger

The "Near-homophones" section mentions niggardly and snigger as "frowned upon and sometimes seen as offensive" because of their pronunciation. Here (Britain) I've heard that occasionally about "niggardly", but never, ever about "snigger", which is the standard word for that type of laugh (far more common in British English than "snicker"). Loganberry (Talk) 03:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Niger/Nigeria???

Doesn't this word come from the two country names Niger and Nigeria??? P.S.: Shouldn't someone upload a picture of an african-american person??? Quote: An encyclopedia is a knowledge resource: if someone doesn't know what a nigger is, they should be able to come here and find out (complete with visual aid). 82.101.190.156 (talk) 12:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this word come from the two country names Niger and Nigeria??? It's unlikely. For one, they're pronounced differently. For two, French is a much more likely source. garik 21:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

They may be pronounced differently, and yes, we know how to properly pronounce them today, but hundreds of years ago, less educated people did not, in fact, know the proper pronunciation of the nations of Niger and Nigeria. They looked at the map and saw the word "Niger" and they pronounced it "Nigger", and therefore, dubbed the inhabitants of that nation Niggers. To say that the word Nigger came from the southern mispronunciation Nigruh would mean the usage only dates back a few hundred years. The usage goes back hundreds of years further, to when English slavers were studying maps of Africa. Mirlin 00:09, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to assume good faith here, although I am extremely dubious. If you consult Image:Afryka_1890.jpg, you will see that neither Niger nor Nigeria existed on maps of Africa as late as 1890, and certainly weren't there in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries. Nohat 05:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

revision for length and tone

"Similarly, other portmanteaus formed from nigger, also considered offensive, are used to describe other groups. These include combining nigger with Chinese to produce chigger (not to be confused with the parasitic arthropod), with Korean, kigger, with Japanese, jigger, with Taiwanese, tigger; and with spic (a slur for a Hispanic), to produce spigger; also, the term Niggerican is sometimes used to refer to Puerto Ricans. Also to deride those of Mexican descent is the term "taco nigger". The terms timber nigger, prairie nigger, and swamp nigger are used in some areas to refer to Native Americans. This term is found more in the northern part of the United States where the original Native Americans flourished in the large forests that once existed there. Sand nigger refers to those of Arab descent, snow nigger is a slur against those of Inuit descent, and rice nigger and slant-eyed nigger are slurs similarly directed at Asians in general. Those of Irish descent are sometimes referred to as potato niggers, and Germans called NigMeisters. People of Polynesian descent are derisively called pineapple niggers."

Is all this even neccessary? Honestly, it would be much more academic to simply point out that as one of (if not the ultimate) the most offensive slurs in the english language, it is often combined with a stereotype of another group to insult them? I want to edit this now, but I'd rather have feedback first.

Also, is it really neccesary to list and detail so many popular culture uses of the word? Yes it is used quite a lot, but wouldn't a brief list of examples suffice?

Please give feedback --Ccosta 21:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I found that section informative. After the first example, you might try to bullet list the rest. NorrYtt 14:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

nigger-rigged

Why is there nothing about nigger-rigged (also jerry-rigged or gerry-rigged like gerrymandered). I don't know where this is in use but blacks and whites both use it here (deep south), whites, generally only around other whites, and blacks, whenever. My neighbor (black) uses it commonly because he tinkers with and tries to fix electronic and mechanical items himself. He says it without a second thought. eg: "I had to nigger-rig it with duct-tape." I've never bothered to ask why he uses the term and his input on whether or not it's racist. PondScumEsq 09:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

If we can find a reliable source which discusses that use of the term then we should include it. However your neighbor doesn't count. -Will Beback 06:16, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Slavery

The first paragraph makes it seem as if the USA and Europe abilished slavery at the same time, whereas in fact the USA retained it far longer than any civilised nation. TharkunColl 23:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Use during the British Raj

This term grew into common usage when Indian slaves/workers were called "niggers", due to their darker skin... The origins of the word is linked to many indian languages, thus the base is possibly from sanskrit. 61.246.63.173 (talk) 18:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Big grammar/usage edit

I just went through and made a ton of grammar and structure and spelling edits. Didn't change the substance of any of the content, although I also added a few things. Hopefully the edits are OK, but if not let me know.

I also deleted the idiotic "yo yo" section which was created yesterday on this talk page.

shift6 08:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Suggested correction

Please consider editing ... "the word nigger was not originally considered derogatory, " (this word was originally considered derogatory by blacks. To correct this state it should read .. "the word nigger was not originally considered derogatory, by whites." 66.138.72.66 (talk) 15:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

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