Talk:North and South (Gaskell novel)

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Is the title North and South or North & South? If the former, then the ampersand in the second reference to the title in the article needs to be corrected. Rlquall 00:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The name of the novel is North and South, but the title of the 2004 BBC production is in fact North & South. I made the change match the name of the 2004 production. Also, I added some information about the original serialization of this novel. It appeared in a periodical over the period September 1854 through January 1855. According to and I believe all other sources I've seen, including The Oxford Companion to English Literature, this novel is dated 1855, the year the parts of the serial and additional material were published in book form. So I think it is probably wise to change the title of this page to North and South (1855 novel). Kkuchenb (talk) 03:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I did a little more research and found that the earliest date for North and South is indeed 1855. I checked the catalogs for the British Library and the Library of Congress, both of which hold first editions. So I moved this page, based on the instructions on the Wiki help page. This is the first time I've done this, and I hope I did it correctly. If not, please feel free to set me straight. Kkuchenb (talk) 22:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Starting May, 2012, I have undertaken a project to translate much of what is found in Nord et Sud (French wikipedia) as suggested in 2011. The effort has been slow: citations needed to be checked and redirected to English web pages. Some new citations for information difficult to access for English readers (those available only in French) were changed to English sources when they can be found. This undertaking is not over yet.EAvecilla —Preceding undated comment added 15:08, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

My editing of this page is almost over as of today, June 13, 2012. While much of the additions comes from Nord et Sud, I found I had to make a few corrections after checking the original sources. I also added some information from more recent scholarship on the subject. I do have a concern about this page--that it might be used to enter information by self-published authors seeking to advertise their work on wikipedia. I did not remove this information but decided to add the section on Fan Fiction to place these entries into a more appropriate context.EAvecilla (talk) 22:59, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Fan fiction?[edit]

Can I ask why this page is being used to advertise someone's self published fanfic e-book? Do you know how many of these are running around? Is wikipedia going to open all their pages advertising self-published fanfic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 21:11, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

I quite agree; never heard of the author; the site has nothing to do with the subject of this article, so I have removed the link ixo (talk) 18:28, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Attribution note[edit]

The following note was left at the top of the article:

This article now contains a significant amount of material taken from the French wiki site, Nord et Sud (roman)—June 2012

This should be noted for attribution purposes, though the article is not the correct place to do so. --BDD (talk) 21:33, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The quotation that concludes the introduction has no reference in either the Oxford Classical Library or Penguin editions, although they explain most of the chapter quotes. Finding it with a search engine was not very hard but not trivial either (perhaps because Gaskell changed the first word from Bespeke to Bespeking) so I thought it would be useful to identify it here. I could have referred to an online copy of a collection of Lydgate's minor poems but I thought the Caxton was more interesting. By the way, I wonder where George Eliot got the surname Lydgate for "Middlemarch." Hipparchus (talk) 00:40, 12 March 2014 (UTC) Sorry, I should have said Beseke instead of Bespeke. Hipparchus (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Victorian era analysis needs a fresh perspective[edit]

A new perspective on Human Behavior

Every analysis of social behavior in the 19th century I have read misses a major piece of the picture. In the Wikipedia article called; "North and South (Gaskell novel) the standing of men and women of the privileged classes is very clearly written, and is easy to understand. However, the same divisions and restrictions for the sexes does not encompass the working classes, or the very poor. As Gaskell's book pointed out- men, women, and children worked, unless there was a good reason for them not to. (Pregnancy in the latter months, babies and/or small children at home, malor illness) As with every one of us...Now and everyone that has ever lived...we are all very different. In the lower working class there were as many homes ruled absolutely by the man, as there were families Mama 'wore the pants', so-to-speak. Rules of civility had no place among the working poor.

Another human issue is the presents of mental illness, emotional instability, and alcoholism. Persons belonging to this group seldom follow cultural norms, even to the point of breaking the law. It stands to reason therefore, as many couples lived together as married- had kids, and carried on as if they were husband and wife- as there were families that married first. The Mentally Ill/Alcoholic group were unstable with the payment of debt, employment, and housing, constantly moving, changing jobs, the couple breaking up- which translates to the man leaving... followed by to woman/now single mom, and only adult bread winner, bringing another "husband" into the home. Or- if times became truly hard- she turned prostitute to feed her children.

What we call "The Middle Classes" didn't show up on the scene until after WWll... Less than a hundred years has passed. Like the Industrial Revolution, America, the U.K., and many other countries, has gone through "A Technological Revolution." Just as the Industrial explosion caused a shift in social structure, making some poor people rich, and some rich people poor... a massive increase in the "Working Poor", and sudden jump in the population needing charitable assistance to survive... the same is happening now as the Newly Made Middle Classes fall back into poverty.

There are many more parallels between the 1850's and now- the second month of 2015- that can be used to determine what life was like for the poverty stricken 165 years ago. Certain aspects of human nature has not changed any in the last hundred fifty years. No- in-fact, those very undesirable traits has changed little since the beginning of recorded history. Alcoholism has been a problem from the moment intoxicating substances were first discovered. The "need" for wine and spirits comes with a whole bag of truly ugly crap. Its so detestable we do not talk about it in public, nor even around extended family members. Sexual Deviance is the worse of the bunch. It includes pediophilia, having sex indescriminately, and excessively. Cheating, stealing, and becoming an accomplished liar... are part-and-parcel for a condition that has been at epidemic proportions for many decades now.

Of course there is fighting, run-ins with the law, abuse of spouse, and children... absolute brutality towards domestic animals, most notably dogs ans cats. Because their temper can rage out of control for no apparent reason, words and/or phrases like "Road Rage" has entered into our collective consciousness in the last 40 or 50 years. Actually it is simply a symptom of much bigger problems. There same things were happening in Gaskell's time as well. It isn't hard to imagine it being worse than it is now. The ratio of Rich to Poor was a great deal higher, Something a Parson's wife would know intimately I imagine. Because of the Clergies position in the community they regularly rubbed elbows with the landed Gentry as well. What North and South gives us is a glimpse into a world we couldn't possibly know. The differences between the two classes is about far more than a simple matter of money. "Poverty thinking" is a way of reasoning, drawing conclusions, making decisions, and a common form of reactions to particular types of events.

'Poverty Thinking' takes over when unexpected monies fall into their laps...This is one of the ways the condition can be identified... no matter how desperate their situation, every person reacts the same... they run right out and blow it on dinners out, a good drunk binge at the nearest watering hole, buying pricey items they do not need... instead of catching up on bills, buying durable clothing for themselves, and their kids, going to a doctor, fixing a car- I think you get the picture here. So, I have described 2 demographic groups whose behaviors, and social customs are very different than those of the 'Rich and Famous' in this century, and the Aristocracy, The land Owners, The Industry Leaders.... the Old Rich and the New Rich... Only a small percent born in abject poverty can make the transition to rich, successful individuals. In the 1850's poor people were easily used, taken advantage of, and scapegoats for richer mens crimes. So- if that was going on... and there is plenty of documentation to prove it ... why would any one not pick-up on the other atrocities committed against helpless people? It was happening in the Southern United States at the time the book was written... and there are records of it going on all through history. Masters taking poor girls the bed, the bigger and stronger taking what they wanted from the weaker, including women and girls. Families with alcoholism, and abuse going on, regularly bed the girls at very young ages in many countries today. All to often a case of long term sexual abuse of a daughter, niece, younger cousins. It happened in the 1850's too. In-fact, there are records of Israelites taking slaves and bedding whom ever they choose.

Do you see now? A description of the rules of polite society in the 1850's, would only cover the landed gentry... There are 2 more demographic groups- other than "poor" I mean, that drastically changes the landscape. A new map need to be drawn. I haven't the resources, or access to the required reference material to rewrite the article. I hope some one does. By-the-way... There loads of typos, misspellings, and inaccurate material--Hyacinth of the North (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2015 (UTC)--Hyacinth of the North (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2015 (UTC)--Hyacinth of the North (talk) 10:46, 3 February 2015 (UTC) in the current version.

Thanks- I hope I haven't given any one a headache. Hyacinth of the North

Addition of ISBN from Wikidata[edit]

Please note that this article's infobox is retrieving an ISBN from Wikidata currently. This is the result of a change made to {{Infobox book}} as a result of this RfC. It would be appreciated if an editor took some time to review this ISBN to ensure it is appropriate for the infobox. If it is not, you could consider either correcting the ISBN on Wikidata (preferred) or introducing a blank ISBN parameter in the infobox to block the retrieval from Wikidata. If you do review the ISBN, please respond here so other editors don't duplicate your work. This is an automated message to address concerns that this change did not show up on watchlists. ~ RobTalk 01:24, 15 May 2016 (UTC)


Having just (2016) re-read the novel, it seems to me that one of its major themes is globalisation (foreign markets, wages undercut by low-paid immigrants, competition from emerging economies etc). Does anyone know of any lit crit on this that could be referenced?Brownturkey (talk) 18:23, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

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