Talk:Orsha offensives (1943)

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This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

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AFD Request

Looking through the articles history, since its inception in early 2010, no inline citations have been provided to support the article. A single book has been provided but not in English nor have any page numbers be used to allow authenticating even any of the article with the source; a major breech of Wikipedia guidelines. In addition tags have been in place for over two months further reinforcing this point and no action has been taken by the article’s creator or major contributors to improve the quality or coverage since then.

The unsourced information provided in the lede in regards to the strategic effects of Germany not being able to redeploy forces south is at odds with the sourced information in the background section of the Operation Bagration where it states Germany did so as this was where they expected the Soviet summer offensive to come from.

Maps provided on other eastern front articles i.e. Bagration show Orsha being well behind the German frontline prior to the Soviet summer 1944 offensive and the online Russian presentation of the Great Patriotic War show no offensive being launched in the general area during the dates provided in the article, thus raising concern. Google searches do not find anything that relates to the specific winter battle this article describes and the two month old orphan tag makes one lean towards the opinion the article is some form of hoax hence i believe a discussion should be opened on AFD.

Regards86.4.81.225 (talk) 01:57, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done Jujutacular ^talk 04:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note, since the AfD header seems to have not been added, the article was kept at the AfD and moved to its present title, as there were offensives as described launched in 1943 which are separate from and predate Bagration, and where the Soviets did rather badly. It is confusion between this and Bagration that led some folks to suggest it was a hoax. There doesn't seem to be much sourcing, there is some at the AfD discussion and some on User:Blablaa's talkpage, and the citation given in the article is to a valid source (although it is in German).--Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

While I agree that the article leaves much to be desired, I would hesitate to delete it too hastily for one of the two following reasons: either a) it is possibly an erroneous date for the offensives in the Orsha and Bogushevsk axes by Western Front starting in November (not October) 1943, discussed by David Glantz (1997), or b), it refers to another of the "multiple failed operations by Western Front during this period". Glantz holds (citing some Russian language sources) that there were many Soviet offensives that were deliberately not discussed because they were not successful.

Source: David Glantz (1995) The failures of historiography: Forgotten battles of the German‐Soviet war (1941–1945) Journal of Slavic Military Studies 8(4): 768–808

In summary, I doubt that the article is a hoax, but it does needs a lot more research and editing. --Wally Tharg (talk) 15:40, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]