Talk:Pair skating

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Review: November 6, 2019. (Reviewed version).

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lady vs. woman

I'm aware that the women's event is called "Ladies", but I do not think that applies to pairs. Even if it is, that does not mean we have to use the word "lady" whenever we refer to a woman in a figure skating article. --Fang Aili ^talk 22:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Lady" most certainly is the official terminology for female pair skaters, same as for females in the other figure skating disciplines. (In fact, as far as the ISU is concerned, even female speed skaters are officially "ladies".) ISU Rule 302, which defines pair skating, says "The composition of a pair must be one lady and one man", and the rules that describe pair elements such as lifts, throws, and death spirals do so in terms of the actions of the "lady" and the "man". The ISU Regulations are available on-line, so you can easily verify this for yourself.

Personally, I think the term "lady" is old-fashioned, sexist, and patronizing, and it's a word I avoid in everyday writing and speech. But it's the official terminology of the sport, and Wikipedia ought to be descriptive rather than prescriptive when it comes to terminology and rules of a sport. Indeed, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity says, "Where known, use terminology that subjects use for themselves (self-identification)." One could also argue that overriding the sport's official terminology because the editor of the article thinks it is old-fashioned, etc. is a violation of the Wikipedia:NPOV policy.

Of course there are contexts where it is OK to refer to a female skater as a woman rather than as a lady. But I don't think this is one of them.

BTW, another terminology issue related to the subject of this article: it is certainly "pair skating" and not "pairs skating". At one point I did a search to track down and fix all the references to "pairs skating" or "pairs skater", but more may have crept in since then. "Pairs" is OK as a (plural) noun but it's not correct usage as an adjective. Dr.frog 23:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for responding. However I disagree on a few points. I believe it would be sufficient to include a sentence in the initial paragraph about the ISU's official terminology. I do not agree that we have to use their terminology throughout--including the official description would be enough. If we followed Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Identity as you cited above, then what would we do if someone wants to be called Master of All Skating? We don't always have to use the subject's official or desired terminology, and in this case I believe we need not be beholden to the ISU's terminology for any reason. If we think we have to use "lady" throughout this article, where will we draw the line elsewhere, such as in figure skating, or the various pair skater articles? Do we have to use "lady" there also? Or can we just note the official terminology, as is already done at figure skating? I agree that "lady" is anachronistic, and its tone is certainly non-encyclopedic--which may be the strongest argument against using it.

Regarding NPOV concerns, one could also argue that using "lady" is biased because that term has connotations beyond sex, whereas "woman" just indicates female.

About "pair skating", yes, I agree and if I've written "pairs" a few times, I apologize. --Fang Aili ^talk 17:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Frog, I think we've had this discussion once (or more) before-- see the first decision, the second debate (note the table in that section), and the archived original debate. There is obviously consensus in the multiple straw polls held that says that even though some sites use "Ladies", the term "Womens" is more appropriate and keeps event subpages similar in format. That said, I still personally feel that women works better in this case, but I have only decided to chime in here to bring up past history in this matter. → JARED ^(t) 14:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who has worked professionally both as a technical writer and journalist, to me it seems like a no-brainer that when writing formally about an event, one should use the official name of the event. Likewise, when writing descriptive or tutorial material about a technical subject that has standard terminology (whether it's a computer operating system, law, surgical procedures, or a sport), it's a no-brainer that one should use the standard terminology instead of inventing one's own. Substituting different words that may seem "better" to a layperson can often subtly alter the intended meaning or lose information.

I have no problems with describing female athletes in figure skating as "women". But the official name of the "ladies" competitive event is indeed "ladies", and in pair skating and ice dance, in the rules "lady" and "man" refer to the roles performed by the two skaters, not just their gender. E.g., a death spiral is defined with the man's role being to pivot and the lady's to circle around him. In many of the compulsory dances, the lady and the man are required to do different steps. So please, try to forget about the other connotations of the word "lady", and just treat it as a technical term that has a precise meaning in this sport, same as "lutz" or "choctaw". It's not really terribly different than the jargon of cricket, tennis, dressage, gymnastics, or any other sport. Dr.frog 00:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you're outnumbered here, Dr.frog. The above links clearly display a consensus for "woman". I'd like to avoid a revert war or any consternation with you. Can you bend to consensus in this case, please? --Fang Aili ^talk 03:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think many of the people who "voted" at the above links clearly did not know that "ladies" is the official and correct terminology of the ISU. If you want to convince me that Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Identity doesn't apply here, you'll have to come up with a better argument than "duh, a lot of people who didn't know what they were talking about said so". :-P

You seem to think that one consequence of this terminology is that we must always refer to female skaters as "ladies" in all contexts. Not so! I have no problem at all with statements like "29 women entered the ladies' figure skating event in Torino". The athletes are "women", but "ladies" is correct for the name of the event. The situation with pairs and dance is a little different because, as I said, the ISU uses "lady" and "man" to define the technical elements of those disciplines. I suppose it is not actually incorrect to use "woman" in discussion of those elements, but is political correctness really important enough to justify departing from the standard terminology of the sport? (I'm kind of boggling at the idea that busybody Wikipedians who don't know anything about figure skating might someday vote to banish mohawk and choctaw, too, out of concerns that those terms are patronizing to Native Americans....) Dr.frog 22:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, Dr.frog, you cannot presume that those who voted for "women" did so for invalid reasons. Your own opinion does not override consensus. If you wish to raise this issue again, and convince people you are right, I suggest you raise the issue again at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports Olympics/Olympic conventions. --Fang Aili ^talk 00:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you so obsessed with trying to apply a "vote" about terminology for articles about the Olympics to articles about topics specific to figure skating? Figure skating is not the Olympics; there were figure skating competitions for "ladies" before the first Olympics, the governing organization is separate from the IOC, and the vast majority of competitors in the sport never go to the Olympics. Dr.frog 01:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to understand that Wikipedia functions by consensus. You cannot overturn a decision just because you think your way is better. I also don't understand why you insist that 'ladies' is "official" terminology when the ISU website itself uses 'women'. I realize that figure skating is not the Olympics, but it is an Olympic sport, and Wikiproject Olympics has come to a consensus on this issue. You are correct that the vast majority of skaters never to go the Olympics, but then the vast majority do not have Wiki articles either; if a skater has an article at all it is likely that he/she is an Olympian. Therefore you cannot claim that Wikiproejct Olympics has no say in this matter, nor that their discussion was invalid. --Fang Aili ^talk 02:22, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please point me at the specific places on the ISU web site where they use the term "women" to refer to female pair skaters, or indeed, female figure skaters in any discipline. Certainly the ISU regulations (see the link above in my first note in this topic where I pointed you at rule 302) use only "ladies".

Of course I understand that Wikipedia operates by consensus. But, more importantly, Wikipedia has three fundamental policies which "are non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines, or by editors' consensus":

Wikipedia:Verifiability: "The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain."

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view: "Let the facts speak for themselves."

Wikipedia:No original research: "All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources."

In addition to the ISU regulations (primary source), I can point you at these secondary sources where the use of the term "lady" in figure skating is discussed:

Abigail M. Feder's essay "A Radiant Smile from the Lovely Lady", in Women on Ice, ISBN 0-415-91151-6.

Ellyn Kestnbaum, Culture on Ice, ISBN 0-8195-6642-X.

Again: if you want to argue that "women" is the correct and official terminology of figure skating, please cite some credible sources. Dr.frog 04:17, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The ISU Communications clearly and consistently use the term "lady" for the description of a pairs team and in the description of pair elements. If we're going to correctly cite the ISU, we have to use consistent terminology. "Lady" is as much an artifact of figure skating terminology as the "figure" in "figure skating". Both have vestigial connotations of the original term, but they're still part of offical usage and terminology today. As for the previously mentioned debates and consensus reached during the debates, in my opinion they are based purely on faulty generalization and appeal to popularity. --MuskMelon 00:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Transfer of discussion

I have moved the discussion here. Anyone wishing to comment should go there. Thank you. --Fang Aili ^talk 13:23, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Has pairs ever been contested?

I know absolutely zero about figure skating, but it seems to me at some point someone somewhere must have contested that only one male and one female can pair skate. Has this sort of discussion been significant within the figure skating world, such that it should be included in this article? 00:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ladies vs. women revisited

I started a discussion at Talk:Single skating#Ladies vs. women. I think that after all these years, it's something to discuss again, especially since there really wasn't consensus at the time, as per the section above. The ISU hasn't budged on the topic, but it's something to consider amongst the editing community, especially in light of intervening discussions about the gender gap. It's obvious where I fall on the subject: using "women", but explaining in notes that the ISU still uses the word "ladies" in all its regulations and communications. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:54, 30 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re-vamp

As I've done for many other figure skating articles, I've re-written this article. I have updated the content and changed the structure so that it resembles other figure skating articles. Its references are complete, accurate, and reliable. The images are appropriate to its content. I also removed the source template from the top of the page, since it's no longer true. For some reason, this article was the most complex of the three articles about the disciplines, but I believe that it's finally completed. I would like to submit it to GAN, which I'll do in seven days from now (18 December 2018) if there's no objections. If anyone has any thoughts about what should be added and/or removed, please speak up. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 13:21, 11 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Pair skating/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sportsfan77777 (talk · contribs) 15:36, 29 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Made it within a month! (just barely)

Lead

I suggest including the definition in the first sentence, such as "Pair skating is a figure skating discipline defined by the International Skating Union (ISU) as "the skating of two persons in unison who perform their movements in such harmony with each other as to give the impression of genuine Pair Skating as compared with independent Single Skating"."
1908 Olympic Games ===>>> 1908 Summer Olympic Games

Above items done.

Only the first attempt of an element is scored. <<<=== Is this a common enough issue to include it in the lead?

Removed.

I suggest adding the higher injury risk associated with pair skating to the lead.

Added. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:19, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Background

1908 Olympic Games ===>>> 1908 Summer Olympic Games
Madge Syers is introduced twice in different ways, and overlinked
continued throughout the 1900s ===>>> continued throughout the rest of the 1900s OR continued throughout the second half of the century
In 1988, The New York Times reported that since the 1964 Olympics in Innsbruck, Soviet pair teams had won gold medals in seven consecutive Olympics. ===>>> Soviet pair teams won gold medals in seven consecutive Olympics from 1964 in Innsbruck to 1988 in Calgary. (This isn't an opinion. You don't need to state who reported it.)

Above points addressed.

Silby estimates that due to the lack of effective communication, there is a "six-fold increase in the risk of national-level figure skating teams splitting" <<<=== I suggest clarifying "[pair] figure skating teams" in the quote. And do you what the six-fold increase is compared to?

The source doesn't compare it to anything, which is one of the reasons why I used a direct quote. I made the clarification as per your request by adding the phrase "among pairs teams" before the comma. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Short program

2014-2015 season ===>>> 2014–2015 season (Note: the dash is wrong.)
In the note, 2018-2019 has the same dash issue.

Both fixed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:50, 2 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Free skating

up to three lifts ===>>> up to three pair lifts
I suggest changing all of the "only"s to "exactly"s here.
highest pairs free skating program ===>>> highest pair free skating program

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:23, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Competition elements

Pair skating required elements include lifts ===>>> Pair skating required elements include pair lifts

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:25, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pair lifts

The elements performed by pairs teams ===>>> The elements performed by pair teams
categorized by their level of difficulty ===>>> categorized in order of increasing level of difficulty
2019-2020 season ===>>> 2019–2020 season
Group-Five shouldn't have a dash (There are two instances with a dash.)
and a dance lift ===>>> or a dance lift
only through hand-to-hand ===>>> through hand-to-hand (only is already used at the beginning of the sentence)

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:32, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Twist lifts

There are no limits to the numbers of revolutions executed ===>>> There is no limit to the number of revolutions executed

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:34, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Solo jumps

Pairs teams, both juniors and seniors ===>>> Pair teams, both juniors and seniors
and any kind of double or triple jump for seniors ===>>> or any kind of double or triple jump for seniors
Note 7 can just be in the prose.
execute a Euler ===>>> execute an Euler
When the Euler is performed separately, it is considered an unlisted jump. <<<=== What is an unlisted jump? (or maybe just call it a "non-listed jump" to assert it is the same as what is described later in the section.)
They are allowed, however, to execute the same two jumps ===>>> Teams are allowed, however, to execute the same two jumps
leaves the ice ===>>> leave the ice

Above points addressed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:01, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Throw jumps

A throw jump is judged as a jump with a higher revolution ===>>> A throw jump is judged as a jump with a higher number of revolutions

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:06, 3 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Solo spins

I suggest beginning this section with an explanation of the difference between a "solo spin combination" and a "spin combination".

It's a good suggestion, but the problem is that I can't find a definition anywhere for either spin. The ISU Communications and publications by U.S. Figure Skating don't even define them, probably because they assume that people will know what they are, anyway. Perhaps when I improve the articles about spins I'll find something, but for now, I don't think it's out there. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:58, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I figured it out. Solo spin combinations are done by just one partner at a time; spin combinations are done by both at the same time. Is that correct? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yah, that's about right. Let's not include it, though, because although the ISU thinks it's self-evident, it obviously isn't, which is why they never define. Perhaps I can find sources for it later, and then I'll add it at that time. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 23:26, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Spins

Okay.

Death spirals

2019-2020 season ===>>> 2019–2020 season

Got it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 03:59, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Step sequences

and minimum variety at least five difficult turns and steps ===>>> and a minimum variety of at least five difficult turns and steps
The workload between the partners must be even and will help them earn more points ===>>> The workload between the partners must be even to help them earn more points

Above two points addressed.

Both partners must execute the combinations of difficult turns at the same time and with a clear rhythm and continuous flow, although they do not have to execute the same kind of turns, but without the free foot touching the ice. <<<=== It's not clear how the last fragment (but without...) links to the rest of the sentence.

You're right; it wasn't very clear, so I moved the last fragment to after the comma following the word "flow". I think that clarifies it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:06, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Choreographic sequences

when the teams begins to prepare to execute the next element ===>>> when the team begins to prepare to execute the next element

Got it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:08, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Falls

Both members of a pair skating team have received broken noses ===>>> Both members of a pair skating team can receive broken noses

Done.

Pair skaters have 1.83 injuries per athlete <<<=== Is this over a year or a career?

The source doesn't state that information. I could go look at the primary source, but wouldn't that go against WP:PRIMARY? I mean, there are times when we have to for figure skating articles, of course, but in this case, I'm not sure it'd be appropriate.

A study conducted in 1989 found that ice dancers and s, during a nine-month period of time, experienced serious injuries <<<=== I think something is missing at the end here.

I'm not sure what you mean. The sentence doesn't end for a while.

It doesn't makes sense to just say "pair skaters experienced serious injuries" because it doesn't specify for instance what fraction of the skaters in the study experienced those injuries (was it all of them?). It might be better for example to say, "A study conducted in 1989 found that ice dancers and pair skaters, during a nine-month period of time, could experience serious injuries" or "A study conducted in 1989 found that ice dancers and pair skaters, during a nine-month period of time, were at great risk to experience serious injuries" or the opposite, if there is only a low or moderate risk. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:16, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, but the trouble is the source doesn't specify that. The source just states that ice dancers and pair skaters have serious injuries and that female pair skaters have more injuries than men, but doesn't go into the study's sample size, probably because the authors didn't think it was important enough to mention. If they didn't think it was important enough, neither should we. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They can lose five points if they can resume their program three minutes after the interruption begins. <<<=== Does the clock stop with an interruption? I imagine if three minutes out of a four minute program pass, the team will not have time to do much in the little remaining time.

Isn't that self-evident? When they resume, they have as much time as the rest of their programs allows. IOW, if skaters have an interruption at the three-minute mark, they resume from that point until the remaining time ends. I could refer to the rule in the technical rules (#515, S&IP/ID 2018, pp. 90-93).

Let's say I have a 20-second interruption at 1 minute into my 4 minute program. Does that mean I have until 4 minutes and 20 seconds to complete my program? Or does that mean I have to squeeze the final 3 minutes into only 2 minutes and 40 seconds (accounting for the 20 seconds lost in the interruption)? Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it means that if I stop my program at one minute, I can resume after my interruption ends and complete the last three minutes of my four-minute program. I have to resume my program at the point of my interruption; I can't redo it from the beginning or start at a later point. However, the source (the ISU) doesn't state that; it just assumes that its readers understand it without explanation. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ISU rules leaves stopping ===>>> ISU rules leave stopping

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:28, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Time

If the program's duration is completed less than 30 or more seconds early, skaters will receive no points for any elements performed during that time. <<<=== The wording for this is off. (Which time? Is it after the program is completed?)

It's not very clear in the source, either. I changed the wording, so hopefully it's better now: "The pair team receive no points if the duration of their program is completed less than 30 seconds or more seconds early." Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:39, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Music

Okay.

Clothing

1994-1995 season ===>>> 1994–1995 season

Fixed. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:41, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overall

Most of the dashes should be this one: –, not this one: -, or this one: —

I believe that I fixed all instances mentioned.

No dab links.
Everything looks sourced.
No real plagiarism concerns (the detector mostly just caught quotes).
No external links.
All of the links work, except this one: Special Regulations & Technical Rules Synchronized Skating 2018

Yes, I fixed the link. The ISU tends to move around documents like this; it's an issue to address in most of the figure skating articles I've worked on for the last 1.5 years. That's what comes from working on articles about a topic in which things (like rules) change regularly, especially each year.

I didn't see the link change, but I switched it for an archived version of the 2018 edition. The current edition for 2019 is easy to find online too. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I misunderstood you, my bad. Earlier versions of this article used the source, but currently, it does not. I removed it from the "Works cited" section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, looks good! The most major comments I think are the first sentence of the lead, and explaining the difference between solo spins and spins. Placing on hold. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 19:48, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: And I think that I've addressed all your comments, although we can discuss the spins issue. ;) Thanks for the review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:48, 4 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Figureskatingfan: I asked for a few clarifications above. Hopefully, that will sort everything else out. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:33, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan77777: I think I addressed your further clarifications. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, that's fair. I would lean towards saying you can interpret the definitions of "spins" and "solo spins" from how they describe the scoring for each, but I can understand why you don't want to do that. Passing! Sportsfan77777 (talk) 06:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]