Talk:Primus pilus

What?

does the last paragraph have to do with ANYTHING? "Althought lucius vorenus didnt agree with much of caeser's decision he went on accepting to become a senator of rome.However, he didnt see senate alot because caeser was assasinated quickly." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.18.95 (talk) 22:12, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Pilus=file??? Would be interesting to find ANY (other) source that agrees with this. In all of my latin dictionaries Pilus means (a single) hair, a small amount, a small distance, not of importance and so on. Never seen the word "file" on the same page. Have the original editor ever heard of personification of nouns(i.e Pilus << Pilum) or other transformations of words? Interesting also to concider that Pila means "ball" which seems very far from a spear or a "file". Perhaps the phonem "pi(l)" indicates something that you throw, and the following characters are used more or less only to denote the different thing you throw. In my language (Swedish) "pil" as well as the German "Pfeil" means "arrow" - but that´s perhaps pure coincidence. Best regards 44 Echo 44 Echo (talk) 22:52, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Translation of First Spear

No. Primus Pilus means "(carrier of) first spear" and nothing else. 44Echo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sadads (talk • contribs) 02:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I think I found a partial explanation for the confusion though. The key is which word the particular meaning derives from within the context. A glossary on the subject (which, incidentally, says Primus Pilus means "First Spear") DOES mention the term "PILANI"--an alternate name for the soldiers of the Triarii, appears to derive from the word "pilus" as a "file of soldiers" instead of of pilum as a "spear." However, no such note exists under the entry for Primus Pilus. Furthermore, when examining the entries for these terms in A Complete English-Latin and Latin-English Dictionary (Joseph Esmond Riddle), "pilus" is just a term for a company of the Triarii. No additional helpful speculation is provided by that authority on the "meaning," therefore we should conclude that someone saying "pilus" derives from "file of soldiers" is offering their own speculation. It seems far more likely (though admittedly, this is just as much speculation as the rest) that as the Triarii were armed with spears and operated in phalanx formation that "Pilus" was another term for a company of Triarii BECAUSE they were SPEARMEN.

Final note edit: one source DOES indicate that "Pilus" is sometimes used for "Pilum." Further credence to the idea that Primus Pilus would literally mean "first spear". Also worth noting that the etymology for "pilus" as meaning "hair" traces to pilum, accoring to wiktionary. (see links below) Also worth noting that one messageboard source indicates Langenscheidt's universal Latin dictionary provides an alternate meaning for Pilus as the same as Pilum when "Pilus" is pronounced with the long "i." Working on verifying with that source.

Since the source for translating Primus Pilus is a tripod website, with no reputable backing or citations to speak of, I plan to adjust or remove entirely the entry translating the term if no better sources can be found indicating "Primus Pilus" is best translated as "First File." First link below is the one directly referenced here, subsequent ones are additional sources--of varying reliability, that I found during my investigation dealing with the translation of "Primus Pilus".

http://www.legionxxiv.org/glossaryP/

[Googlebooks contains a digital copy of "A Complete English-Latin and Latin-English Dictionary" by Riddle, with the primary entries of interest being on page 494 of the digital source]

[Googlebooks entry for "A literal translation of the twenty-first book of Livy [with the text] with notes. From the texts of Drakenborch and Crevier." This entry on page 132 indicates "Pilus" is sometimes used for "Pilum": http://books.google.com/books?id=O0wIAAAAQAAJ]

Wiktionary indicating connection between pilus and pilum:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pilus

Additional definition entries making no reference to "first file" as a translation:

http://catholic.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup.pl?stem=pilus&ending=

http://latin-dictionary.net/definition/31608/primipilus-primipili

Sources specifically indicating "First Spear" as the literal translation:

http://www.legionxxiv.org/centurionpage/

http://romanmilitary.net/strategy/structure/

http://legvi.tripod.com/id57.html

Only other source non-messageboard source I could find claiming "first file" as the translation: http://www.amtgardrecords.com/companies/company.php?ID=631

Source using both translations: http://orderofcenturions.org/organization.html

GeneralofAll (talk) 08:27, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Given no response from anyone, and my subsequent research, I'm going to change the listing of the translation. From the Oxford Latin Dictionary (1968), pg. 1380 (entry for "PILUS"). Second Entry: "m. [PILUM(2)]." There is a more extensive explanation in the text about why there could be confusion, and explanation of the use of "PILUS" when in conjunction with PRIMUM, PRIMI, and PRIMUS. And as PILUM(2) is "A throwing-spear or javelin (esp. as used b the Roman legionary)," I will be making the correction until such sources may be provided to back the idea that the correct translation would be other than that of "first spear."

GeneralofAll (talk) 00:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue had been settled early in the 20th century, see discussion at Talk:Centuria#First file: no, it has little to do with the lance (Romans did know their spelling). I have added the source that covers the subject to the article. I will also add the etymology comment to the lead. Викидим (talk) 18:18, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Please reconsider this, pilum meaning javelin and pilus meaning file or rank of soldiers are completely different words. It's a little complicated to explain if you don't have some experience with how Latin works, but I'll try to sum it up. Latin nouns change their endings to reflect whether the noun is the subject, the direct object, the indirect object and so on. 'Pilum' is the subject form of the noun meaning javelin. 'Pilus' is the subject form of the noun meaning division of the triarii. The confusion comes from the direct object form of 'pilus', which is 'pilum'. This does not mean, however, that they are related words. There is no evidence to suggest that they are, and it is most likely that 'primus pilus' means only leader of the triarii and not first spear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.74.0.22 (talk) 14:52, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Agree to that. My latin is not from scholarship but from deep interest in the Romans, and mainly studies of my own. But would not a word describing a file of soldiers, carrying spears or whatever, have something to indicate plural? Like Pilii, instead of Pilus, which indicates singular? Like Triari, Roari and Accensi, the other (older) terms denoting troops equipped with the long spears mainly for defense. Then you have Hastati (with throwing spears/javelins) breaking enemy lines and Principi for close combat - all in plural. This is from the older roman army, before Marius and when the troops had to equip themselves, whith their own money. After Marius, and especially during the Emperors, the army was equipped from a raised salary/sponsorship from the government, and all foot soldiers got the same equipment. No difference in lines anymore, all legionaries being equal. But the old words remained perhaps in the ranks, and the foremost centurion got the rank Primus Pilus, in my thinking a tribute to the old army, when the battle beaten veterans formed the last line, equipped with a spear. However, it seems that the original "translation" of Primus Pilus have been removed from the main article, so no point in discussing it further - sorry for not noticing.2A02:AA1:1629:CBD7:6495:C411:7E39:73DC (talk) 19:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

I am planning to return it with a cite, explaining (hopefully) a proper "pilus". Since the source is pretty old, feel free to offer a newer one. Викидим (talk) 18:21, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Biography?

As there is no biographical information in the article, why is this a biography task force article? Monstrelet (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Please Stop Changing it to "First File"

I wrote an extensive entry on this talk page relating to how the widely accepted "First Spear" translation is both better documented and more accurate. It was changed back some time ago by an anonymous user who seemed to be using the same sketchy sources as years ago without giving any input on the talk page. If anyone feels like changing it from "First Spear," please address the issue on the Talk page first. GeneralofAll (talk) 17:13, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The sources for the change, that were fully quoted in the change itself, are:

1)- Latin Grammar. As it was clearly indicated, if the meaning was "First Spear", the rank would be called NOT "primus pilus" but "primus pilum" (nominative case, 2nd declension). That's basic latin grammar, not a matter of opinion. "Pilus" and "Pilum" are two different words.

2)- The term "Pilus" refers to the alternate traditional name for a Triarii maniple. See A.Liberati and E.Silverio - Vita e Costumi dei Romani Antichi - Vol.5 Organizzazione Militare: Esercito - Edizioni Quasar - Roma 1988 - published by the Museo della Civiltà Romana, chapter 2 page 21. See also [1]. Please note that the sources I list are not amateur websites, but latin dictionaries and an official book by the state-owned Museum of the Roman Civilization.

3)-The correct term for the rank was not just "Primus Pilus", but properly "Centurio Primus Pilus", that literally translate as the Centurion of the First Triarii Maniple. That is, by the way, the exact description of the position of the Primus Pilus in the legion's battle array.

As such, I repeat, the popular translation as "First Spear" in incorrect, both in grammatical and semantical terms. I guess we are having a sort of unpleasant editing conflict here, something that I truly hate. Let's see if we can find a friendly and collaborative solution to the matter, in good Wikipedian style. Please let me know. --Arturolorioli (talk) 10:09, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Applying general Latin grammar rules to the situation isn't productive as it would likely be original research and primipilus has its own dictionary translation independent of pilus in the first place, as you noted. Relying on the methodology would leave us nowhere on the point, as the literal definition by that method is neither of the options. At best, with that reasoning, the line on a meaning should be struck altogether. Generally it seems to not be of particular concern to modern scholars in the sources I've consulted so far, but none of them have attested to a meaning of "first of the file." But if you find a recent credible source that explicitly attests to the alternate meaning of "first of the file" please share. Until then, I refer you to Juvenalis Satirae XVI With English Notes By Herman Prior, M.A. (1887), whose notes on "Pila" (pg 145) appear to support the meaning on the article currently with, at most, source and wording modification. See link below. Just for curiosity, I've written to a Latin scholar on the subject for further insight and will share if I ever get a response. [2] GeneralofAll (talk) 22:11, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree that 'first file' is not a good translation, but 'first spear' is even worse. The Oxford Latin Dictionary is quite clear on this matter, 'primus pilus' means 'leader of the triarii' and nothing else. There is no evidence to support the notion that it means 'first spear' and such a translation is ungrammatical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.74.0.22 (talk) 14:59, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

See #Translation of First Spear above. It seems that there is at least one pretty good WP:RS with translation ("first maniple"), see quote at Talk:Centuria#First file. Викидим (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Claiming "first maniple" is the "literal translation" is somewhat confusing if one then looks at the "maniple" article and realizes that the Latin for "maniple" is manipulus. I would suggest foregoing a literal translation and adding a note that explains the origin. WP Ludicer (talk) 00:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Per the quote from an RS, The maniple of triarii was known simply as the pilus (uderlining is mine, for a full quote see Talk:Centuria#First file). So I will simply add "triarii" to the current text for now. Feel free to suggest or implement better explanations. Викидим (talk) 07:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

added a few things i knew of about high ranking Centurions

hello, just addressing these changes in the "Talk" page so you all knew what i added and why!

the things i have added are "off-duty life" and "role in war councils" i added these things to help interest people more about the Primus pilus and the Legatus legionas so they could increase the size of these articles and learn about their life while not a soldier and their life in the councils! i will be fixing a few things pretty soon, such as the "First File" mistake that i have noticed!

Black-Wolf-the-poet (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)Black Wolf

How to redirect to this article instead of to "Centurion"?

Somehow "Primus Pilus" redirects to the article regarding "Centurion", even though apparently a separate article about this already exists with the same name.. So what is the problem? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Heruttaja (talk • contribs) 22:10, 30 October 2020 (UTC)