Talk:Punisher/Archive 5

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MAX IS NOT 616

So it seems the majority of people and evidences are with it not being 616, time for someone more litereate then me to edit the article.

As a side note its worth stating that firebase valley massacre was not stated to NOT have happened in some capacity in 616 meaning its mention in civil war files does not pull max into 616 it could be referring to the 616 version of this event or a similar one or was more likely and error either way it seems a consensus has been reached.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.146.32 (talk) 17:48, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

MAX is not In continuity it should be in the other versions section but some tosser changed it back despite the correction —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.179.156 (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not totally sure about this, but in the Marvel Knights series, which happens in 616, there is a character named Jen Cooke, a social worker. She appears in the "Hidden" arc, in vol. 4 of the trade paper back. She then appears in the "Slavers" arc of the Max series. I would say this pulls the Max series into the 616 universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 03:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The current Punisher: War Journal title is in continuity. Punisher: War Journal and Max have no relationship to, or bearing on each other. For example in Punisher Max, Frank Castle has a daughter; in War Journal he doesn't. This suggests Max is not continuity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.69.142 (talk) 22:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Does the Knights series take place in 616? The Knights series and the Max series happen in the same continuity, because of the Jen Cooke character. In the "Slavers" arc she mentions the events in the "Hidden" arc, so that's undisputable. Both the Knights series and the Max series are written by Ennis, also keep in mind. If they are occuring in their own continuity, (Ennis' universe) than that should be made clear: Knights and Max in one universe, with War Journal in the standard 616 universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 02:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I would argue that the total lack of any other common elements seperates Max from Knights. Are there any other references to the Knights run in the other (so far) 53 issues of Max? I suggest that Ennis just used Jen Cooke for quick access to the character type, without having to waste space developing another character. The reference to the "Hidden" arc is just a nod to the audience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.86.149 (talk) 12:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

After going through the 9 MAX arcs, there are no references to the Knights run save Jen Cooke. I would say Ennis' has his own continuity: Born, Tyger, The Cell, the Knights run, the Max series, and The End. Max is a continuation of Ennis' Knights writting, but doesn't take place in the 616 universe, despite Knights taking place in 616. So that would be two continuities: 616 which is Knights then War Journal, and Ennis' writtings. I would agree, MAX is not 616. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.199.88.137 (talk) 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

In the “Civil War Files” (Takes place before Punisher: WJ) Iron Man talked about The Punisher’s past. “Captain Frank Castle, sole survivor of the Firebase Valley massacre” (A MAX line story from the events in Born, Frank’s time in Vietnam)

“Although recently Castle has escalated his “war” on crime even further, with record-breaking body counts, he is paradoxically now rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil” (record-breaking body counts would be from both the Marvel Knights and the MAX line, rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil would be from the Marvel Knights).

“It’s almost like he inhabits two worlds, one where heroes can capture him and one where they can’t, and he can slip from one to the other with ease.”.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.228.188 (talk) 22:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This is my first talk thing, so I'm sorry if I do it wrong. MAX is not 616, it uses it's own origin story with the Drago mob family (seen in The Cell one shot), 616 still uses the Costa family origin (it was shown in last months issue of War Journal). In the 616 universe Frank, his wife, son and daughter stumble upon a mob execution being carried out by Bruno Costa and a couple of his goons, Bruno orders his men to kill Frank and his family. In the MAX "universe" Frank, his wife, his son and daughter just happen to be caught in the middle of a shootout between the Drago family and a rival mob family. Another difference that makes it obvious they're different canons is the fact that Micro was killed by almost being incinerated by a rocket in one of the final issues of the 90's Punisher series. MAX is set in the same "universe" as Ennis' MAX Fury miniseries, a real world continuity away from superheroes and such. The fact that one family is responsible in 616 for his family's murder and an entirely different family in responsible in MAX is all you really need to realize they're different canons. Certain characters from 616 may exist in the MAX comics, but 616 characters also exist in the Ultimate comics. FearEmbodied (talk) 02:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• We must also remember that the Punisher’s past (or any character) isn’t always going to be written a 100% correctly every single time from every single writer. Back in the 1980's and 1990's the way the Punisher's family was killed was written differently many times by different writers. The Punisher says himself that he was shocked to see that Micro was alive. And that's nothing new; characters have been brought back to life many times in comic books.

There might have been minor differences between the writers, but it was still the Costa family every time. Also, Frank said he was shocked to see Micro, not to see him alive. It's said in the book the Micro quit, not died like he did in 616. FearEmbodied (talk) 05:47, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• And yet some of the events in the MAX line have been talked about in Civil War. The MAX line is an imprint for adult reading and that’s all it is. There was nothing that was said that the Punisher would be in another world when he was move to the MAX line and nothing has been said. When it came to how the Punisher’s family was killed… first it was told that they were killed before they had a picnic and saw a mod hit, or they were killed when they were flying a kite and stumbled onto the mob hit, or they were killed by two Miafa groups and were killed in a crossfire, another has it that Frank wandering onto the scene after hearing gunfire to see mobsters standing over his dead wife and kids or Frank was behind a tree and heard the gun shots of his family being killed. Like I said not every writer is going to get it right and there will always be continuity issues.

• • I am confused. I'm all for Punisher stories set in alternate continuties. But if it is meant to be in Earth 616, then there is no reason to get it wrong. As I understand it, 616 was the Castle family stumbling upon a mob execution and all were shot by the soldiers there. Lots42 (talk) 17:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Some still aren't getting that in 616 the Costa origin is still used. In the last issue of War Journal Jigsaw talks about the whole thing, he mentions the Costa family targeting and killing the Castles because of what they witnessed. In the MAX universe it's an entirely different family and they weren't targeted they were simply caught in crossfire of bullets being shot by the Drago family. If they were both part of the same continuity then why would they switch back and forth between two different and very distinct origins? If MAX is 616 canon they why does it use Ennis' non-canon Nick Fury? MAX Punisher and MAX Fury are in their own separate canon, call it something like "Ennis-verse" if you want but it's quite clear that they're not the same. Also, someone mentioned that in Civil War they mention MAX arcs, could you give references? FearEmbodied (talk) 21:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

And let's not forget that the MAX Punisher is much older than his 616 counterpart. darknus823 19:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to the many Marvel and DC comic book writers there are not always on the same page when it comes to a character's backround. In an interview with the new writer that will be taking over after Ennis leaves says that he sees the MAX line Punisher as being in the 616 world.

In the “Civil War Files” (Takes place before Punisher: WJ) Iron Man talked about The Punisher’s past. “Captain Frank Castle, sole survivor of the Firebase Valley massacre” (A MAX line story from the events in Born, Frank’s time in Vietnam)

“Although recently Castle has escalated his “war” on crime even further, with record-breaking body counts, he is paradoxically now rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil” (record-breaking body counts would be from both the Marvel Knights and the MAX line, rarely encountered in the field by any super hero save Daredevil would be from the Marvel Knights).

“It’s almost like he inhabits two worlds, one where heroes can capture him and one where they can’t, and he can slip from one to the other with ease.”

This is word for word from the Civil War Files issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.105.143 (talk) 07:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

"When it comes to the many Marvel and DC comic book writers there are not always on the same page when it comes to a character's backround. In an interview with the new writer that will be taking over after Ennis leaves says that he sees the MAX line Punisher as being in the 616 world."

I would really love to see the interview you're talking about. There are three new writers, which one supposedly said that? Also, I'd say the MAX origin and the 616 origins have too many essential differences to simply say the writers aren't "on the same page". As I said before, some of you don't seem to get that the Costa origin is still used in 616, if the Drago origin showed in "The Cell" was a retcon don't you think that the 616 books would use that origin? It makes no sense to switch back and forth. You can chop up the "Civil War Files" mess to the writer not knowing what the hell he was doing. FearEmbodied (talk) 13:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion MAX is not set in the 616 Marvel Universe. Everything is different, even Frank's vital statistics are different. In the 616 and Marvel Knights Universe he stands at 6ft. and weighs 200lbs. In the MAX universe he stands at 6'1" and weighs at 210lbs. In the MAX universe, Castle got his training from the Australian Special Air Service Regiment, while in 616 and Marvel Knights universe he was SOLELY USMC/Army/Navy.

Bits and pieces of the 616 Universe is still use in the MAX universe, such as Frank's rank in the USMC before he was exchange with the Australian SASR, plus Frank's real name - where he illegally changed it to enter Vietnam for the third time. Then after completing his Militray service, his family were murdered in a violent shoot-out.

Ultimately the MAX universe retells the Punisher's adventures in a more realsitic, more believable and mature way that entices us readers. It is in no way connected to the Mainstream Marvel Universe.

The Marvel Knights is set in the 616 that ultimately leads to the crappy Punisher: WJ book. I agree with FearEmbodied that the dumbass who wrote the "Civil War Files" does not know which continuity he needed to include. The Jen Cooke was just a character Ennis inserted to save him time writing the story arc. So let's not get too worked up about a character Ennis just recycled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.141 (talk) 21:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the agreement. Characters from 616 may appear in the MAX books, sure, but they're MAX versions of the characters. Characters from 616 also appear in the Ultimate Universe, but they're obviously different.FearEmbodied (talk) 12:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

FearEmobodied, I'm the one who agreed to your statement earlier. I need to confirm because there is a confusion about Marvel Knights and MAX universe regarding Castle's military training. It says that in the 616 universe, he received his training solely from the US military. But in the MAX and Marvel Knights universe, he got his thing from the Australian SASR. That being said, Marvel Knights is set in the 616 universe right? So that means the statement on the skills and training part of Punisher's bio is wrong. It should be noted that in the MAX universe, Castle was with SASR. While in the 616 and Marvel Knights he was with the USMC/Navy/Army. I hope I'm right.

I can't remember reading anything official that says Frank was trained solely by the US military in 616, I think adding the Australian SASR part was just Ennis elaborating and fleshing out Frank's training.FearEmbodied (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Please read Punisher MAX Vol. 2: Kitchen Irish, there is this British SAS Trooper named Yorkie Mitchell who mentioned that he and Castle trained with the SASR during the war in Vietnam as part of the exchange program of the Australian military. While in 616, Frank received extensive military training from the four branches of the U.S. Armed Forces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.110.141 (talk) 12:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Does anybody else think that the references to Grand Nixon Island, General Kriegkopf and The Russian should be removed from the Max section? They were part of Marvel Knights storylines; what are they doing there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.148.226.127 (talk) 21:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The article on Barracuda >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barracuda_(comics)< is bigger than the section on the whole Punisher Max series. How about a seperate Punisher Max article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.241.81.203 (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, someone please make a Punisher MAX article and I'll provide the infos I've been saving.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 10:41, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Even more proof that MAX is not 616. There are spoilers ahead, so watch out if you haven't read the latest issue of War Journal. In the latest issue of War Journal it looks like Jigsaw was killed. Now, as we know from solicitations Jigsaw is going to be in an upcoming issue of MAX. I think we might have definitive proof when we read that issue. FearEmbodied (talk) 09:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Is the Punisher Sociopathic?

The Punisher character was inspired by Mack Bolan of Don Pendleton, and the Punisher character carried over the "metaphysics of violence" developed by Don Pendleton, an unconventional underlying philosophy of violent retribution against lawlessness in all forms. The Punisher opposes entrenched political corruption, police corruption, and official misconduct (the true hypocritical sociopaths, wolves in sheep's clothing), but never tries to harm the innocent average citizen or good-intentioned cops; the peaceful, crime-oppressed innocent civilian is, indeed, the very object of his retributory concern. If the Punisher was a sociopath, he would lack the moral sense to discriminate between legally untouchable career-criminals and unprosecutable gangsters and their victims, with whom he shares a special empathetic bond. On the contrary, in view of Jungian psychology, the Punisher is a re-manifestation in a democratic, materialist-positivistic age of the forgotten archetype of medieval knight-errantry, righting wrongs according to a higher code of justice. Indeed, according to Greg Garrett, author of Holy Superheroes: Faith and Spirituality in Comic Books (Navpress Publishing Group; April 2005), the more controversially punitive-minded comic book superheroes like the Punisher and Batman function as avatars of the Old Testament God of retributive justice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.179.108 (talk) 15:07, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Official misconduct? The Punisher doesn't give a crap if you are sleeping around on your wife or embezzling. If you are embezzling from a homeless shelter, he might punch you to get you to stop. If your embezzling caused a death, well, THEN you are screwed. Lots42 (talk) 20:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

lex talion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.129 (talk) 10:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

He tossed one guy out through a window for cheating on his wife... though he did offer him the chnace to run away first :D 68.59.135.136 (talk) 05:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The Punisher is a colt Killer (compared with Wolverine, often from bad emotions and anger people out metzelt) and takes quite a lot of time to assess whether a person really deserves the death (pickpockets sure he kills only if they him on the way to run, he focuses mainly on well-murderer). The comparison with a medieval knight is a good choice, since the years before a death penalty has publicly legall and necessary (in America they are yet). Last but not least, it makes this form of "crusade" more realistic than the usual superhero, as you clearly feel that Strapatzen and Entberungen he assumes (he is wanted by the police, hated and has no real friends or allies). I would this approach as "healthy Geis table" einstuffen because Castle is not crazy: He plannt, expects, combined and is able to negotiate (albeit doggedly). In addition, he is to his fellow human beings, something a criminal would otherwise never do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.164.69.135 (talk) 11:01, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The Punisher is very strict about who he kills, and the people he does kill "deserve it". He shows no remorse for what he has done, but that's because the people he murders are guilty. "Girls in White Dresses" is a perfect example: =Spoiler!= When he believed he had killed the young girl, by accident no less, he was crushed with remorse. These are feelings that a sociopath wouldn't have. Further, in the "Barricuda" arc, he was not initially going to kill Ebbings and he was fairly hesitant to kill the stock holders on the ship. It was when he realized that the people were no better than the usual scum he hunts that he executed them. Exilo (talk) 23:46, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Errors and such

Hi, random Castle fan here. I noticed an error (a couple months ago, and changed it today because it bugged the crap out of me) that claimed that the Punisher killed Stilt-man during the final battle, when he infact killed him a few issues before. I also added some details, but nothing too redundant or useless. I don't know how to cite or link anything since this is my first contribution to this site (which has saved my rear during many a school assignment), and I don't think that I will become a regular contributor, but feel free to fix it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.166.65 (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, same person. Couldn't help but notice that the edits were reverted back to the former. I guess I changed it without consulting the discussion board first, but I couldn't help but notice no explaination why, or the fact that the same blatant errors are still in there. Even if my additions were needlessly lengthy, the Punisher DID NOT kill Stiltman in the final battle between the heroes, especially since he wasn't even still on Captain America's side (being previously kicked off). Stiltman was killed in Issue #1, volume two of punisher war journal, BEFORE the Punisher was even involved in the politics of the war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.166.65 (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Devil's Advocate: The Punisher has never let what 'side' he is on choose who he kills. Lots42 (talk) 20:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Punisher 2099

You guys are missing the Punisher 2099 One shot. Where the woman is the daughter of Frank Castle and Elektra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.82.252.14 (talk) 02:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Punisher 2099 has his own article Lots42 (talk) 03:24, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I will be happy to add it if you would like me too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Intelligent Moron (talk • contribs) 02:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Civil War

Can someone who read the issues work on the section called 'Civil War & World War Hulk events'? It's a morass of typos and god knows what else; I'd work on it but I have no clue of what really happened and when. Lots42 (talk) 06:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish I could work on it, but I still haven't finished reading WWH. Im have read WWH #1-3 only †Bloodpack† 14:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was quite tired when I made those edits (guy from errors and such post). I know that it is factually accurate now, though. I knew that it might need to be cleared up a little, but I am rather sick right now and would rather not strain the old brain too much.

And to Bloodpack: All you really need to read to understand where the punisher is involved in WWH is issue number 12 vol.2 of warjournal, and issue 108 of Incredible hulk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.247.200 (talk) 23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Personality Updates

The personality section currently says all superheroes are illegal vigilantes, which for Marvel is attualy incorrect any ideas how we should rephrase it? Joeking16 (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

And besides which, is there such a thing as legal vigilante?  :-) --Tenebrae (talk) 01:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the "registered" heroes per Civil War: Initiative, JK! =D Nice to see you Ten! I'm starting to get lazy editing this article. Nice of you to drop by =) †Bloodpack† 04:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Max

I thought Frank rescued Max the dog from a life on the streets; after Max's owner was killed in a robbery. Lots42 (talk) 16:21, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Don Pendleton inspiration

It is a common secret that Don Pendleton's Mack Bolan was the direct philosophical-artistic inspiration behind the Punisher character in spite of all 'official' consensus propaganda. Get real. Don Pendleton or at least Mack Bolan should be mentioned in the article as inspiration. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think anyone will mind if you cite references and such to this. Lots42 (talk) 01:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedians are really far-out in their anal-rentative pendanticism and formalistic 'scholarliness'. Do we need a citation that our Sun is a star or that the sky appears blue or humans are mammals with intellectual souls, isn't it just self-evident?

So I guess the fact that the April 1975, Marvel Preview Death Sentence (#2) issue explaining the birth of the Punisher character has an interview with Don Pendleton (creator of Mack Bolan) possesses no evidentiary value and is sheer coincidence? There is no possible way to disentangle the Punisher character from the late Don Pendleton, who deserves a brighter fame for his personal creativity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.1 (talk) 12:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a perfectly good citation to me. Why not go ahead and add it in? Lots42 (talk) 03:57, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am new to the Internet and not a very good Wikipedia editor. Could someone put the Pendleton context info in the article for me? thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 22:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Special Air Service Regiment

Good day!! I would like to know what issue in the MAX universe or the Marvel Knights universe showed he was exchanged with the Australian military?

I need to specify if it was in the MAX universe or Marvel Knights universe, so that we can separate the Castle's military training from the Mainstream Universe and from the Ennis' universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.46.141 (talk) 21:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Yorkie, in Man Of Stone (which was MAX, 37-42) was SAS- But I'm pretty certain he was British, not Australian.

"Murder"?

In the first section, there are some strong words describing the Punisher's actions and implied ethics: he employs "murder", etc. I wonder how accurate this really is. Murder refers to the taking of innocent life, as far as I know, not to the superfelons the Punisher takes on. The whole idea is to prevent the taking of innocent life. As to 'legality', are the covert American special forces groups that assassinate criminal druglords like Pablo Escobar and the gangs of modern terrorists a bunch of 'illegal murderers'?

This discussion is moot since the definition of murder is to end a persons life. Innocence or quit is in no way related. The punisher has commited many murders, anytime he kills a person who is not directly threatening him or another person it is murder plane and simple. If you don't like the idea of a hero character being called a murderer than read superman. Punisher is an Anti-Hero who regularily murders criminals--70.24.141.154 (talk) 06:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

--The prime element in determining the status of murder is the justice of the underlying cause for the act of destruction rather than the destruction itself. Is the Punisher motivated by private malice or avarice? Does he reinvest the captured spoils of his opponents in personal profiteering or sell his lethal skills to amoral mercenary employers? The just motive (targeting of career superfelons to preserve the common good) legitimates the act. John of Salisbury has some relevant words on Tyrannicide. If the Punisher confines himself strictly to targeting the felonious, the designation murderer is only expressive of a decadent bureaucratic legalism, which doesn't understand the complexity of higher ideals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.130.225.205 (talk) 16:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Crime is contextual. What is the difference between illegitimate robbery and legitimate confiscation? The act of seizure is common to both acts and would appear identical to an extraterrestrial observer, but confiscation is legitimate solely due to the fact that the seizor targets an individual deserving confiscation (i.e., white-slavers, drug-lords, etc). Is deception inherently evil? A deception-based police sting targeting felons is hardly immoral, and tyrannicidally "murdering" a corrupt, lawless figure like Hitler holding external-legal authority would be meritorious. The same act, death-infliction, is lawful or unlawful solely depending on whether the act is defensive or offensive, not whether it is procedurally or democratically ratified. Outward-bureaucratic authority cannot be the decisive criterion, as Genghis Khan's terrorism would then be "lawful" and Hitler's governmental court-approved atrocities perfectly fine. Claus von Stauffenberg possessed no "legal" authority to assassinate Hitler and is considered by many a traitor, but in a world of corruption, what matters is moral intention. The main criterion on whether violence is moral/lawful is whether it is offensive or defensive. The unprovoked initiators of violence and aggression can be dealt with according to their own level due to the fact that they commenced the process of warlike violence. Thus, war is morally neutral, and bloodshed falling on the initial aggressor is ethically normative. If the category of "initial aggressor" is too difficult to determine and each side is ill-motivated, civilized people have the right to Amishlike nonparticipation. On the other hand, certain "initial aggressors" are obvious to all sane, civilized, rational, moral people (i.e. "official" tyrants like Hitler and Stalin, child-pornographers, drug-lords, Charles Manson, etc.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.10.2 (talk) 19:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

"Assassination" might be a more neutral word. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah, this is definitely ridiculous, labelling the punisher a murderer; i have not read every single punisher story, but he doesn't belong in the category of authentic murderers. i mean, the executioners of the tyrant Caligula possessed no "legal" (only moral) authority to kill him--were they murderers in extralegally executing a tyrant? I mean, was Judith some monstrous murderer for killing an aggressive warlord like Holofernes? let us not become bureaucratic-legalitarian saps with no understanding of complicated, heroic-style ethics.

i replaced "murder" with killing, for a more neutral stance. at the worst, he should be consider an assassin, which is more neutral. and tyrannicide is a traditional theory that arguably falls within the modern legal concept of justifiable homicide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.129.41.15 (talk) 00:45, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

He's a psychopath and a serial killer - I will add reliable sources to the effect later. Our views on this are irrelevant. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

from Lexi Alexander's interview of an American soldier:

http://www.lexialexander.com/MLee2.html

What do you think about Frank Castle? I think Frank Castle represents what every true American is. He is taking vengeance upon the people that have wronged his family and this country, and is doing it for the right reason. Everyone serving in the armed forces and those supporting them present and past can understand that. It's patriotic to want to have that desire to stand up for a noble cause and act upon what you believe in. Frank Castle is not scared of death and acts that way. He acts as if there is no tomorrow or any consequences for his actions and even if he thought there would be a backlash for what he did he sure doesn't show it. Secretly I believe a lot of people wish they could be that bad ass for that one day and people can respect someone taking his revenge for a right cause and not some crazy stupid idiotic thing in the name of something psychotic.

--so whats the deal here--are most non-military americans cowards with effeminated manners, unable to understand martial heroism? calling astle a psycho-killer is a sign of internal decomposition common to soft, corrupt ages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.176.202 (talk) 07:58, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Violation

All right, who copied the Marvel Handbook into the Abillities section. IT'S NOT ALLOWED! COME ON! You're gonna get us all in deep crap. Lots42 (talk) 05:33, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I should have said that I'm 99 percent sure this is a copyright violation. Lots42 (talk) 04:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Haven't seen the specific edit, but if it's taken substantially from the Handbook, even if a word or two was changed, you're absolutely correct — it would be WP:COPYVIO --Tenebrae (talk) 13:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Frank or Francis?

Is Frank a nickname for Francis?

In 616, Marvel Knights and MAX universes, it was stated that he illegally changed his name to Frank Castle in order to sign up for his third and final tour.

So my question is, what is his real name?

Also it states that in the MAX imprint that Castle's parents and friend calls him Frank. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.141 (talk) 14:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Frank is a nickname for Francis. But i've never seen him called Francis, save in the movie which wouldn't be canon.

I also never heard that he legally changed his name from Frank Castiglione to Frank Castle. I've always been under the impression that he simply signed up under the name Frank Castle, with out any legal action taken. The cover of Max issue 44 shows his legal name as Frank Castiglione and Frank Castle is listed as his alias. When he's mentioned on the news, he's always refered to as Frank Castle, not Castiglione. So, it appears that Castiglione is the name on his birth certificate and his "official" name. Castle would be his de'facto name and the one that he is most widely known by. Exilo (talk) 18:37, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts/Notabillity?

After the 'Slavers' storyline and during the bit where the widows of slain criminals are after him, Frank gets mighty disturbed over the techniques he has been using lately. He tones down on the violence. Criminals still get killed, he, though, purpousely uses less dramatic means. Noteable? Even -possible- to put in in a wiki-way? Food for thought IMHO. Lots42 (talk) 10:56, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is neccassary to mention. Frank does seem disturbed by how easily he executes people, where as Jenny shot herself because she couldn't stand living, but in 'Long Cold Dark' and 'Man of Stone', he tortures people without a second thought (Barricuda and Rawlins respectively). His thoughts in 'Slavers' and 'Widowmaker' don't seem to be the norm, just very brief realizations of how far he is from the rest of humanity. Exilo (talk) 18:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Comics B-Class Assesment required

This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb (talk) 17:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. The article is actually pretty solid. The lengthy publication history sets it up well for pushing on to further quality classes. The main problem is personality - as the tags suggest it is a big black hole of original research and is dragging the rest of the article down with it. I am unsure if this is really needed - what would be better is working the points into the publication history, expanding on character development with an eye to what the creators said. This would eliminate the problem and would really strengthen the article with out-of-universe material. Sort that out and I'd be happy to come back and look it over with an eye on the B class (as without it the article is close if not there).

Although not connected to the B-class assessment strictly speaking, but another step in the evolution of the article would be to split the in other media section off to a separate article which would make this article more focused. (Emperor (talk) 17:46, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

:: What would we call it? --Cameron Scott (talk) 17:53, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I created it at Punisher in other media - however... now I'm a bit confused, this article is Punisher" but virtually every other article included the definitive article. So are they wrong or this article should be moved to "The Punisher"? --Cameron Scott (talk) 18:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what these other articles are but this shouldn't be moved to "The Punisher" following WP:NCC/THE. If you man the "in other media" article you split off (thanks for that) then no to that too see the most obvious precedent Flash in other media. (Emperor (talk) 20:16, 23 October 2008 (UTC))

Details- versions

"In 1976, Castle, his wife, Maria and their children Lisa and Frank,Jr. were in New York's Central Park for an afternoon picnic. They witnessed a Mafia gangland execution; an informant had been hanged from a tree. To eliminate all witnesses, the Costa crime family gunned them down; only Castle survived. Even though Frank was able to identify all of the shooters, the police were unable to stop them; they were tied in too deeply to the powerful Costa family. Grieving over his family's death and outraged at the incompetence of the police, Castle decided that the only punishment criminals should receive is that of physical destruction. Shortly thereafter, he emblazoned his body armor with a symbol of a skull, and began his mission of punishing the guilty.[7] His family's killers were some of the first to be slain.[8]"

I don't know if this article is based strictly on the original series, the Max series, or a mixture of all. But I think if this is a 'general widely known series-universal' article, the details should be rounded off a little. For example, in the MAX universe (and let's face it, that's become the more official version of the Punisher) his family aren't purposely killed because they've witnessed a mafia crime, they're killed in a reckless shoot out between two mafia bands. Furthermore, the killers of his family are actually one of the LAST criminals to die; he kills them when he finally turns himself in for good.

I'm not saying this is what the article should say, but maybe it shouldn't state if his family's killers were slain first or last, or the real details of his family's killing, limiting to "they were killed in a Mafia gang shooting" or something along those lines. Just so no version of the Punisher is wrong, and so that they are all right, as it should be.

Just a thought really. PedroFromHell (talk) 21:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

(and let's face it, that's become the more official version of the Punisher) - not as far as I know - to say so would be original research.

Furthermore, the killers of his family are actually one of the LAST criminals to die; he kills them when he finally turns himself in for good. - no that's simply wrong, the events of The Punisher: The Cell occur *before* issue 1 of the max series where he comments that's already killed everyone involved in the death of his family. Having said that, I agree with the main thrust of your point. --Cameron Scott (talk) 22:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Cameron Scott is correct Pedro the events in Punisher: The Cell tells the events of that fatefull summer day in Central Park and how Frank avenged his family. Plus it has already been discussed, if you're really reading the articles Pedro, Punisher MAX is not set in the 616 universe. MAX has its own dimension with specific continuity. For more information Pedro PLEASE READ THE FIRST ARTICLE.

That's the problem with this Punisher article, we should separate the MAX from the 616 so that anyone would not be confused.

Plus!!! PUNISHER MAX Vol. 10 TPB has stated the Frank was with the Recon Marines in his 1st and 2nd tour. Then he was sent to Firebase Valley Forge and not long after he was promoted to the rank of Captain. Then he survived the attack of the Viet Cong and N.V.A. then he retired from the Marines then a few years later he survived his family's murders. Its really different from the 616 and the Marvel Knights were he was describe as an alumni of the Australian SASR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbritp (talk • contribs) 00:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Missing details - Marvel Knights series

Anyone have the Marvel Knights series? Note: that's the SERIES not the Imprint called marvel knight that had a punisher series published under it. If, can you write a couple of paragraphs about it? --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:36, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure it's that noteable; Frank works with other heroes to save innocent lives. He's done that a lot, he gripes about it but he'd rather save innocent lives then shoot bad guys. Lots42 (talk) 20:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Do you know when it was published and where it would slot into the article? Just a couple of lines to say "during this period, the character appeared in XXXXXXX", that sort of thing. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I have the fist issue. It tells how Daredevil, Black Widow, Frank and Korean agent joined force against the Brothers Grace and their number one man Mr. Tune. Unfortunately I wasn't able to complete it. Cameron try looking at this website (i hope i wont get dinged for this) manwithoutfear.com it has the issue last time i checked.

Fictional character biography

If there is no room for this section in the article, would it make sense to have a Fictional history of the Punisher as I have seen for other characters? 204.153.84.10 (talk) 19:45, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

which are all frankly disgraceful articles that should be erased. If you could do it and write it from a real world perspective AND source it to multiple independent reliable sources, go ahead but if it's just in-universe cruft, I'd advise not to bother. --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:05, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems fairly clear to me that not everyone agrees on the removal of the entire FCB. Is there no way for it to co-exist with the publication history? 71.194.32.252 (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well it could exist but it's difficult, when the article was re-written, the relevent details from the fictional history section were intergrated into the publication history, so just re-adding that section as it was re-written causes duplication. The second problem was that section was chock full of original research and guesswork. The third problem was that it was written in an in-universe fashion - treating the punisher as if he was a real person. If someone wants to do a fictional history section that is a) not a duplication of existing material in the article, b) is not original research and c) is not written in an in-universe tone - I'm not going to stop them. --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd hope so, or at least just make sure all the important bio details are in there some way some how. Regardless, this edit-warring has killed any chance of having a GA in the near future regardless of the article's content. 71.194.32.252 (talk) 23:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

One of the most relevant details to the character has been excised in this FCB-free version: the murders of the character's family. Yes, it is mentioned in the lead, but as per WP:LEAD, the lead section is supposed to summarize the information presented in the rest of the article, and in this version, that's the only place that it is mentioned. Can we fix this? --GentlemanGhost (talk) 01:46, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes please do! Since I left, this article has been a complete mess! †Bloodpack† 02:40, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll have a go later - the deaths (in the mainstream section) are relatively straight forward to describe and that aspect of his origins have had very little variation over the 30 years so it shouldn't be difficult to do. I am current working my way through the Modern Masters series, so hopeful there is also some content there we can add to the article. --Cameron Scott (talk) 07:00, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The death of his family has been removed from the body of the article again. I'm all for conciseness, but cutting that out is going too far. --GentlemanGhost (talk) 05:44, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The darn article has all sorts of problems. We -need- a fictional character biography, the article as it stands is a confusing morass of publication history and what not. I recommend a fictional character biography with a clearly thought out references section. First appeareance. First detailing of his family's murder. First fight with the Kingpin. Microchip's first death. All the important bits of his Earth 616 career. In short, an expert is needed and I am a fan but not an expert. I'd have re-inserted the death mention as discussed above, but I have no idea -where-. Lots42 (talk) 10:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I own all of the comics he's ever appeared in - what's notable for an encyclopedia article for any of that? What reliable 3rd party sources say they are important ((we do however need more on the death of his family - anyone want to take a stab?)? --Cameron Scott (talk) 08:27, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

???? I think someone who knows the Punisher better then I should write an insert a fictional character biography. That is all. Lots42 (talk) 09:29, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Just let's not do it in the purple prose way of the most recent incarnation of the info I just saw in the history. Lots42 (talk) 10:05, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Punisher weapons....Knife.

I wonder is the artist who made the knife for the 2008 Punisher war Zone movie can be mentioned on the page. I attempted it and was told that unless some major news organization wrote about it it was UN AllowED.

really.... the movie,s and comics written about were created by artists, why is it so wrong to mention the artist who created one of the Punishers weapons. Here is what the directer of the film said...and I quote...."When I had to decide on an "official" Punisher knife for our movie, I chose a RELENTLESS knife out of thirty knives that were put in front of me. We all agreed it looked the best and felt most authentic for the Punisher. Then I inquired if I could possibly get the knife a few sizes bigger. Dan Certo of RELENTLESS KNIVES USA offered to produce a custom made knife for the PUNISHER. When it arrived, it was as if someone opened a jewelry box with a 5 karat diamond in it. The entire cast and crew stopped to admire it. Needless to say, Ray Stevenson aka Frank Castle was in heaven and we the filmmakers liked the knife so much, we gave it its own close up in the first five minutes of the movie. Dan, you are an artist! Lexi Alexander --Director Punisher Warzone —Preceding unsigned comment added by Relentlessknives (talk • contribs) 06:06, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

For our purposes, what knife the punisher uses is trivial even with the director providing a bit of puff. --Cameron Scott (talk) 11:20, 11 December 2008 (UTC)