Talk:Randall Flagg/Archive 2

Stephen King Commentary on Randall Flag

King does a fair bit of commentary on Flagg's character, and what he was looking for when they cast the role for the TV miniseries on the Audio Commentary track for the DVD. Information on the appearance they were looking for, etc. Is it worth transcribing some of this to add to the film section here? Leafschik1967 20:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. That's a great idea. I've never watched the DVD, but if there is information on Flagg (commentary or otherwise) then by all means add it to the article. As long as its properly sourced, this would be a great addition to the article.--CyberGhostface 22:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool, I'll get on it later this week. Its a lot of stuff about how King pictured the character, etc. I'll get the quotes, and use the DVD as the source. Leafschik1967 14:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

GA review pending

I have taken on Randall Flagg for review under the Good Article criteria, as nominated on the Good article candidates page by CyberGhostface. You'll be pleased to hear that the article meets none of the quick-fail criteria, so I will shortly be conducting an in-depth review and will post the results below.

Where an article is not an outright pass, but requires relatively minor additional work to be brought up to GA standard, I will normally place it on hold - meaning that editors have around a week to address any issues raised. As a precaution to prevent failure by default should this occur, if editors are likely to be unavailable over the next ten days or so, feel free to leave a message on my talk page so we can arrange a more convenient time for review. Apologies for the time it has taken to get to this article, but as usual the nominations page is backlogged ;) Regards, EyeSerene^TALK 21:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

GA review (fail)

I have now reviewed this article under the six Good article criteria, and have commented in detail on each criterion below:

1 Well written FAIL

1.1 Prose

Whilst this is generally good, flows well and is pleasant to read, there are one or two minor issues here:

• The first paragraph of the lead is rather confusing; specifically "However, the name that he later associates himself with the most and uses for the majority of his appearances in The Dark Tower series is Walter o'Dim." Apart from being grammatically awkward, it appears to directly contradict the previous sentence, and it is not clear whether it refers to Randall Flagg or King himself.
  •  Done Clarified who was Walter and added that the development occurred in later novels.--CyberGhostface 20:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
• The article uses "button" in a few places; being a Brit it took me a while to realise this refers to what I would call a "badge" (see Button to understand my confusion ;) ). It may be worth linking this to wiktionary or an appropriate article to clarify the term?
  •  Done 'Button' is now linked.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
• From The Dark Tower: "Walter gives Callahan Black 13 in hopes of it killing Roland later in his journey." Who or what is '13'?
  •  Done Did my best to explain Black 13.--CyberGhostface 20:33, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

1.2 Manual of Style

• When using blockquotes (as in the lead and elsewhere), they should not be enclosed in quotation marks (see WP:MOSQUOTE; it's either one style or the other).
  •  Done All the inappropiate quotation marks have been removed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
• References should not be spaced from end-of-sentence punctuation - I found one like this and corrected it, but there may be more...
  •  Done Seems to have been fixed.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
• Also with references, we recommend that editors use the templates on WP:CITET to format them (amongst other things, it allows for bot processing to track down dead web-links etc). This mainly applies to the web cites in this article.
  •  Done All references have been fixed with the proper templates.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

2 Factual accuracy FAIL

This is the main area that needs attention, and the main reason for the GA fail. Although the article is fairly well sourced in places, GA requirements are pretty strict with regard to sourcing. As a rule of thumb, we like to see a minimum of one cite per paragraph (preferably at the end to cover the content of that paragraph), and additional cites where needed (for example, for quotations, controversial statements etc). At present the article has significant gaps in its sourcing:

• Some sections (eg Names, appearance and role) are completely unsourced.
  •  Done I added a smattering of sources to the sections that needed them.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
• Most others are sparsely sourced, although most quotations are cited.
• From Origns, the quotation "of the Parris Island variety" needs an explicit citation.
  •  Done I just removed the quote. I don't know how notable it is to Flagg, and if someone wants to add it back then they can properly cite it.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

3 Coverage PASS

Randall Flagg is covered in appropriate depth, and the article stays focused throughout.

4 Neutrality PASS

The article is sufficiently neutral in its approach to the subject.

5 Stability PASS

The article history shows no signs of current major editing or recent edit-warring.

6 Images FAIL

• The image FlaggMovieSheridan.jpg lacks a fair-use rationale, and the fair use rationales on the other images do not state which article they are used in (one FUR per article). For more information on this, see WP:FURG - the template there ({{Non-free use rationale}}) is worth using.
  •  Done Added complete rationales to all the images.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As a result of the above concerns I do not believe this article can achieve Good Article status in the short term, and have reluctantly failed this assessment. If you believe that I have applied the criteria inappropriately, or have any other concerns about the conduct of this review, you can list Randall Flagg on the Good article review page for discussion by other GA reviewers. Alternatively you may wish to address the issues raised above and then renominate the article on the Good article candidates page. Please also feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Regards, EyeSerene^TALK 19:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks for your review. I'll see if I can address your concerns and then I'll renominate it.--CyberGhostface 19:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit conflict?

I'm not sure what happened just then - I've replaced many of the templates at the top of the article with the ArticleHistory template to tidy things up a bit, but I think our edits may have run into each other :P Apologies for that! EyeSerene^TALK 19:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, I'll add it back when I fix up some of the other problems in the article.--CyberGhostface 19:50, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

"Of the Parris Island variety"

I removed this quote. I don't doubt its authenticity, but its unsourced and (IMO) not exactly that relevant to the section. If someone wants to add it back, then please properly source it. Thanks.--CyberGhostface (talk) 18:36, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold

Pretty thorough job here! The only things I see missing are some citations for the 4th and 7th paragraphs of the Dark Tower section. I'll pass it once those are fixed. Wrad (talk) 18:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll see if I can fix it. One question though; is there any way the mention of Dennis and Thomas in the second Dark Tower book be reintegrated somewhere else in the article?--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

If you can make it work, by all means do it. I'm pretty sure it is mentioned somewhere else though. I forget where. Wrad (talk) 20:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I did my best to cite the sections. Is there anything else you think that should be changed?--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks good. It is now a GA! Wrad (talk) 01:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Notes, references

A set of related sections, footnotes in one and bibliography in another, is a handy way of solving the repeat reference problem. I've created a short bibliographic section to show what I mean. Citation 1 can now be simplified to Furth, Robin (2006), p. 266. Adding items in alphabetical order to the bibliography, "King, Stephen (1991). The Stand: Complete and Uncut. Signet. ISBN 978-0451169532" could come next, and that big pile of notes related to this one book could then be simplified. This is just a suggestion, and you can easily revert my changes. Other ways exist to solve the problem, but I think this one would work. Finetooth (talk) 03:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

That makes sense. What about URLs though? For example, two seperate news postings by the same author came out in the same year.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, if its all right with you, I'd like to just replace the extra SK references with Harvard citations being that the only time references are repeated is with his books.--CyberGhostface (talk) 15:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure, I'm fine with that. I noticed that some of the references were already in Harvard format. I think internal consistency is more important than choice of notation system, and the choice of system should be up to the main author(s), methinks. That's you. Finetooth (talk) 19:56, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Copyeditor's thoughts

I'm moving on to a general LoCE copyedit, as requested, now that the citation question is settled. I see two vague things so far that I'd better ask about. In the lead, you write that "Flagg has appeared in a number of King's novels under different names..." It would be better to say exactly how many novels if you know the number or can figure it out. "A number" is a vague phrase that could mean any number. The second vague thing is found in "... pamphlets for the Ku Klux Klan, the Black Panthers, the Weather Underground and other such groups." It would be better to leave out "other such groups" or to explain what you mean by "other such groups". What do these three groups have in common? Finetooth (talk) 00:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's another thing to think about. In the subsection called The Stand, you say that Flagg "... attracts many drawn to law and order and fascist culture around him..." How are "law and order" and "fascist culture" similar? Is "law and order" really what attracts them, or is it something else? Finetooth (talk) 00:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, this article has all the definite Flagg appearences. By different names I think its referring to the different aliases like Walter, Marten, etc. Maybe it could say "Flagg has been known to go under different names" or something similar? As for "law and order", I'm not sure myself but The Stand's article states "Flagg appears to various survivors in their dreams, attracting those who are drawn to logic, rationality, technology, law and order, and a strong dictatorial leader (all the things that evil represents, in King's vision)". I haven't read the book in a while, but I think that's the gist.--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I attempted to fix up the 'R.F.' bit.--CyberGhostface (talk) 02:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Things are looking better, methinks. I've read just enough King to be familiar with the gist of the article, although it also helped not to have read all of the books cited. It led me to link things like "ka-tet" because I had no idea what the term meant. I've gone as far as I can with my copyediting, and I'm going to sign off on the LoCE tag. I'll be around, though, if you have questions. It has been a long time since I read The Stand, but Flagg, the old meanie, stays with me. Best of luck with your pursuit of FA. Finetooth (talk) 05:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your help. Its really appreciated.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

diambiguation

The three links fate, plague and radical need a disambig (or get deleted). Randomblue (talk) 16:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Names

Can I just ask where Flagg was refered to in an acient name? The article says Nyarlathotep, but it's unclear whether he actually went by this name, or it's just an example of a mythical one. If so, should there be a dablink in the Nyarlathotep article? Cheers ArdClose (talk) 18:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

In was referenced briefly in The Stand, I think, but it was never a major alias that he used. He's also called Ahaz, Old Creeping Judas, R'yelah, Seti and some other names.--CyberGhostface (talk) 19:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

Ok, first thing I did was remove any instance where the article presented an interpretation as fact, and tried to support it with facts from the novel. This is original research. Whenever you draw conclusions on your own, no matter how obvious, it is original research. Unless it's something to do with mathematics, which there is no subjectivity to (or something similar that is pure objective facts) then it is original research. You cannot objectively say any character is Flagg just because they are described in a similar manner. Unless they specifically say he is Flagg then it doesn't count. Now, if someone outside of Wikipedia (in this case Furth) publishes something connecting the dots then that is perfectly fine. There was OR riddled within sections, usually not the entire section itself, so they've been removed. If you think I've removed something in haste, just let me know and we can figure out what I misinterpreted the OR.

Another issue was with redundancy. The "Names" and "Backstory" information is something best covered in his appearances section (most of which it is covered in that section). I took what was just fact reporting (i.e. In novel X, Flagg says Blah Blah Blah) and incorporated it into the appropriate sections and then nixed the rest of it as it was pretty much covered already. I removed the controversy around Flagg's death and placed it in an "Impact" section. My intention is for this section to be expanded upon with information about his impact in the real world. Now, this could be worked in somewhere else, but it felt better away from the general appearances. I left the reveiws of Sheridan in that section because they focus more on the actor and less on the character, so it seemed appropriate.

As was probably obvious when I started, I've trimmed (dramatically) the appearances section. This section should not chronicle his every movement within a book, it should give a general overview of his actions in those novels. I saw in the previous FAC that a big issue was with the high level of in-universe information, and I think I've curbed most of that criticism. I also removed the subheadings, as some of those novel appearances were a bit too small to warrant a whole subsection to themselves. Another thing, I've replaced duplicate sources with "ref name". What I noticed was that the same source would be used, but instead of counting twice (or more) it was being counted once each time. As a result, 58 sources have now been consolidated into 35 sources (though some were removed when I removed some unnecessary information that was more pertinent to the books than it was to the character).

I removed images awhile ago because without critical commentary, the images were failing WP:FU. I've given though about removing the Sheridan image, but there is discussion on King wanting a specific face for the TV adaptation, so it may be good to keep it. There isn't talk about the "demon" look of Flagg in the section so the Fangoria image needs to go. Though, I like it and I'm hoping that maybe we can find some information on it, or on the look of Flagg (maybe for the concept and creation section) that would allow us to simply move the image to a new location and not lose it entirely.

I also moved some information that was in the appearances section to a new section, "Characterization". This section is for information that pertains to Flagg's look, persona, etc (i.e. How he is characterized in the novels).

You'll notice citation needed tags around the article (mostly the upper half). These are areas that either need the book source (I have the books, so I can take care of these later) or need a secondary source to confirm the interpration. I didn't remove it outright because I thought it could be relevant and would be good to have if we had a source to support it.

I've stopped at the "In film" section, and I will continue when I get the time. If there are any questions or comments please let me know. I'm not here to destroy the article, I'm here to help it get through the FAC process.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:09, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I would like to do is find a place for Walter's image, being as that is Flagg's second biggest persona and in the DT series is the one where he's most known by. Maybe I can try expanding a section on how he is described in the book for it?

School ends this week for me so if it doesn't get to it I'll try to fixing some of the citations. In some cases, though, I'm not sure if its needed. For example, the line stating "In original version of The Stand, what happens to Flagg is unknown" doesn't have a direct source because the chapter with Flagg waking up is not there.

I would also like to find a place for the scene in DT5 where he looks hurt, as its one of the few scenes where Flagg is given a moment of humanity. Maybe not the direct quote as it was before, but a brief mention.

As for finding information about Flagg's demon form in the movie, I'll look around for some behind the scenes info.

Anyway, thanks. Your help is greatly appreciated here.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Can't disagree with your general aim of cutting out the fat, but I think there needs to be some mention of Flagg's fate (i.e. his death) in the "In Novels" section. Being as this section basically comprises a biography of the character, it would seem very odd to me to not mention his death, especially as it does still mention the (vague) details of his birth. The Impact section is useful in itself, discussing audience reaction to the death, but without mention of it in the quasi-bio section, the reader gets a "huh? Did I miss the line where he died?" moment when they get to Impact Chaoticfluffy (talk) 14:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the last paragraph states "The character believes that the only way to enter the tower is with the red-marked foot of Roland's son, Mordred Deschain, seeing this as an opportunity to become the God of all. Flagg attempts to befriend Mordred, pledging allegiance to him, but Mordred telepathically sense Flagg's true motives and kills him."--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops! Well, scratch that then...and I read the page and the diff multiple times, too! *sighs at self* Chaoticfluffy (talk) 17:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If information can be found about Walter's "image" in the book, then great. The problem that the page was running into at the FACs was that the images were basically pure eye candy. Anyway, on to this latest (and final) trim. I've moved the literary criticism to "Characteristics" as that information was generally all about how he is characterized in the books. Some really good info too. I trimmed the huge quotations and replaced them with simplified paraphrases. I'd like to go back and in pull some quotes that were kind of cool to read, but for succinctness purpose they had to be trimmed, and use them for some quote boxes. Quote boxes are a great way to dress up an article without having to worry about the WP:FU-police getting on your nerves. I also cleaned up the source templates. I don't think I "cut" anything, just trimmed it, but if you saw somethign I did "cut" then ask me about it and I'll explain my reasoning. Chances are it was cut for similar reasons as the other stuff.

Improvement: I left a paragraph beginning in the "Characterization" section for Flagg's physical appearance. I remember some things about his appearance in the novels, and on this page (though I think they may have been misplaced by accident). This is a nice place to include basic facts about how he has been represented physically in the different books. If we can find critics discussing why the change, then that would be even better. We'll have to beef up the "Impact" section, maybe find some popular culture references or something. I'll try and help out with the searching. Again, let me know if you have questions about my edits.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Connection between The Dark Tower and The Eyes of the Dragon

It is stated in The Drawing of the Three that at some point in his early life, Roland met two young men named Thomas and Dennis who were hunting for a demon called Flagg, making it the first use of the name Flagg in the series. Strangely enough, Roland doesn't make any connection between Randall and Walter o'Dim. Is this something that must be cited? MwNNrules (talk) 10:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well it wouldn't be an "appearance", only a mentioning. I'm not sure how to include it, but it would certainly need to be cited at least by the book.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't make any connection because DotT still corresponds with the continuity of the original Gunslinger, in which Roland is not aware that Marten = Walter. Still, even then, he didn't know about the Flagg persona.--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:18, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The first definate connection between the two can be found in the drawing of the three as Roland enters the drug store and recalls the sorceror Randall Flagg. User:Morlonde 14:50, 8 December 2009 (GMT)

All fair enough. I just thought that it may be worth mentioning the persona of Flagg's first appearance. My idea was to have the Flagg reference in the paragraph about The Eyes of the Dragon, as a testament to Thomas' and Dennis' success. But it doesn't really matter, I guess. MwNNrules (talk) 18:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought it was already there. Was it removed? If its not, you could reference that they were mentioned in DotT. But I suppose anything else (like speculation on why its there or etceteras) might be original research.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, it was never mentioned in the article. I wanted to add it at the end to reinforce what is stated: that Thomas and Dennis found Flagg and tried to defeat him. And yeah, since there's so much cross-referencing in King's work, I wanted to check here so that it was not deleted as Original Research. MwNNrules (talk) 21:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

It was probably removed during the cleanup, because I remember adding it a while ago. Anyway, you can probably say something along the lines of "There is a reference to Dennis and Thomas pursuing Flagg in Drawing of the Three, but nothing further is elaborated beyond that".--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If I knew exactly where to look, I'd try to get it cited, but I don't. However, I'd be happy to help with anything in my limits. I'll try gathering up the pertinent information for citing it before it is dubbed Original Research. MwNNrules (talk) 01:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing the importance of mentioning it, because the previous sentence basically says the same thing, that Thomas and Dennis find Flagg but the outcome is not revealed. We basically have two sentences saying the same thing back to back.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

To the topic post for this section: the reason Roland doesn't make the connection is because he didn't know that Flagg was an alternate persona of either Walter or Marten (who were still considered seperate characters at this point). Marten mentions when you meet him in the "throne room" of the Topeka castle that he calls himself Flagg now, which would indicate that Roland didn't know. Remember, Flagg "looks like other people," he probably looked like someone else at the time Roland first saw him.

As an aside, it is mentioned in DotT that Flagg turned someone into something else by looking at him. I believe it was a dog; I feel this should be added somewhere in the article. Ours18 (talk) 03:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your input Ours18. I don't remember him turning a guy into a dog, but I'm not doubting you. Anyways at Bignole's behalf I will delete my contribution. In retrospect he's right. MwNNrules (talk) 18:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes - Roland mentioned two brothers chasing someone or something called "Flagg" which turned an innocent man into a dog. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.32.192.33 (talk) 20:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Connection with The Library Policeman

While I recognize that the reference to the Dark Man in the novella doesn't directly reference Flagg, other speculative appearances are included in the article, despite there being no definitive confirmation that they refer to Flagg. What level of citation would be proper in order to support a mention of the reference, without making the claim that it definitely refers to Flagg? --96.243.12.146 (talk) 21:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The *only* non-confirmed Flagg appearence in the article is Hearts in Atlantis, and we have a source from a legit published work that makes the speculation.--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:18, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

A citation from the same source would be sufficient, then? If I recall correctly, they did mention the use of the "dark man" in TLP. It's been some time since I read TCSKU, though, so I'll have to go back and see if I can find it. --96.243.12.146 (talk) 21:21, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

As long as you just use the information from the cited material itself, and not just listing all the comparisions from the stories that you found. It probably wouldn't deserve an entire paragraph.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Nickname citation

All the nicknames (Dark Man, etc) should be able to be culled from The Stand. They are still tagged as 'citation needed.' Leafschik1967 (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I would do it, however, I have not finished the novel, so I wouldn't know which pages to cite, and I am currently reading others. Perhaps, assuming you have a copy, you could do it. Shouldn't be hard. --MwNNrules (talk) 01:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Do Robin Furth's books have information on it? It'd probably be easier to cite.--CyberGhostface (talk) 01:58, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps sparingly, but the nicknames are more localized the the stand, I believe all three come from the speech just before Glenn Bateman is executed. Judging from the page numbering, that's where the first citation is, but I don't have the same edition to confirm. Leafschik1967 (talk) 04:04, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Unconfirmed characters or aliases

First of all I must state that I haven't gone through everything on this talk page, but my summary overview of both the article in question and this page has convinced me that no one seems to consider the character of André Linoge as an alias of Randall Flagg. Ehm...I suppose I should point out that this is a spoiler alert for those who intend on watching Storm of the Century.

André Linoge was a strange and powerful being who came to the town of Little Tall in the TV mini-series The Storm of the Century. I suspect that part of the reason why few people have yet to acknowledge this antagonist is that the story in which he appears was written directly for the screen. Anyway, in my opinion, André Linoge resembles Randall Flagg in quite a few different ways: 1) It is pointed out in the movie, and the protagonist then quotes the Bible, that Linoge is in fact an anagram for Legion. 2) On at least 2 occasions in the film, Linoge shows his true form, an elderly man with a hooked nose and long white hair, wearing a black cloak. 3) Just like in The Stand, he acts as an opportunist who takes advantage of a situation (vicious storm in this case); he pushes the townsfolk, reveals the sin within them, torments them, manipulates some to murder or commit suicide and, finally, takes advantage of their weakness and lack of integrity to steal a child from amongst them.

Incidentally, this is one of the more important incidents in the story: in the end, Linoge's true purpose was to find an apprentice who he would raise to become like him. At the end of the film we come across Linoge with "Ralphie Anderson", the apprentice, who is now a tainted adolescent whose physiological features are practically demon-like. This is especially interesting when we consider that Flagg is subsequently killed by Mordred Deschaine. All this would mean that Flagg has a successor to replace him.

I believe that all we are lacking is an acknowledgement from the author himself that I am correct; I am not aware as to whether he has made public anything on the subject.

As a side-note, I thought it would be interesting to have a section of the Randall Flagg article dedicated to appearances that are doubted or simply not officially approved. I know that King likes to keep a certain amount of ambiguity to his work, so it makes sense that he wouldn't overtly confirm or refute such hypotheses. I am not really a King specialist; I have merely read the Dark Tower series and seen 7 of his works on the screen, so perhaps I am grossly mistaken. I hope not. TheZoolooMaster (talk) 23:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Andre Linoge has been added to this article numerous times and its always been removed.

Unless you can find a reliable source that makes this connection, it would count as original research and speculation and thus not appropiate for the article. This doesn't necessarily mean that we need confirmation to King...but someone reputable has to have brought it up. For example, while Randall Flagg was never confirmed to have been in Hearts in Atlantis, at least one published source (The Stephen King Universe) made the connection so we reported it that this book made the assumption. With Andre Linoge, it mostly seems like just some fans think so.

I have to say, though, that there are a lot of discrepancies with the Linoge theory. For example, Linoge states that he is not immortal and will eventually die of old age. Nothing has indicated that Flagg would have died of old age. Also, although Flagg has looked for a heir, nothing indicated at the end of the series that he had one.--CyberGhostface (talk) 00:01, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, fair enough. I don't have any such reliable sources to back me up, and if this is how the Randall Flagg article should be treated, then so be it. I really hope King says something about Linoge one day; in my eyes there is no doubt that he is Flagg. Perhaps I should read the Dark Tower VII again; I've forgotten quite a lot of the details, including those concerning Flagg. TheZoolooMaster (talk) 23:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Here is something I found about Andre linoge from the Complete Stphen King Universe. http://books.google.com/books?id=d75KXLXsqpIC&pg=PA233&lpg=PA233&dq=Andre+Linoge+stephen+king&source=bl&ots=JTSXAcVWw_&sig=KICuTKkZVqr09Y1uvLyxfl_sDbI&hl=en&ei=7LG_SoaACNHU8QaC9rStAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=Andre%20Linoge%20stephen%20king&f=false Not sure how to incorporate this into the article though.Starcomet (talk) 18:44, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Russell Faraday

Ehm, I was a bit disconcerted to look-up this entry and not be able to find out the real name of the Dark Man as given to him in The Stand... On the final page of the uncut edition, his name is revealed to be Russell Faraday (pg. 1141), "And as he kissed Russell Faraday's feet, the dark man began to laugh." 98.221.236.202 (talk) 09:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

That's not his real name, if you've read the final Dark Tower.--CyberGhostface (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Missing word or extra word

In the sentence Flagg’s representation of has it's detractors. either the "of" is an extra word or there is a missing word (of evil?), but it's not clear which is the case. Also, the its is possessive and should not have an apostrophe (yeah, I could have fixed that one myself, but on the chance that the problematic sentence would get reworked, I didn't.) -- Michael Devore (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That was my mistake. It should be "Flagg's representation of evil". Thank's for pointing that out, I'll go fix it.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:51, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

The Dark Half / George Stark

After looking at this article and the Dark Half article, I find it interesting that no one seems to have drawn a possible connection to George Stark being another incarnation of Flagg. I am certainly not a Stephen King expert, but after reading The Stand and The Dark Half, I couldn't help but notice similarities between the two characters. It has been quite some time since I have read the books, and I don't have them on hand so unfortunately I can't provide any accurate arguments, but the first thing I noticed that led me to consider the idea was the name.

Take the initials of George Stark (G.S.), invert them (S.G.), and subtract one letter from each and you get our favorite villian's initials R.F.

Hopefully someone more qualified than me can take this idea and bring forth some interesting new information on the character. -- Shaun Hamman (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, as interesting as that is, that would be original research unless you had some sort of source discussing the connection between the two. In my personal opinion, though, Stark and Flagg are two completely different characters.--CyberGhostface (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Another thing I recall reading (again, it's been a while so correct me if I am wrong) near the end of the book there is a scene outside Tad's cabin where it is mentioned that Stark has perfectly flat palms. -- Shaun Hamman (talk) 19:57, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Request for comment on articles for individual television episodes and characters

A request for comments has been started that could affect the inclusion or exclusion of episode and character, as well as other fiction articles. Please visit the discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(fiction)#Final_adoption_as_a_guideline. Ikip (talk) 11:05, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Removal of fair use images

One of the things I've been trying to do is to get Randall Flagg to Featured Status. Granted, I haven't been successful, but I think the amount of information here, in terms of both in-universe and real-world, makes it more of a possibility than any of the other Dark Tower articles at the moment. One of the things that's always been brought up is the amount of fair use images. There are some Wikipedians who wouldn't be happy unless *every* FU image was gone. So I narrowed it down to three fair use images. The main one (obviously) for identification, Jamey Sheridan as Flagg its notable in that its the only time he's been portrayed in film, and the one as Walter as that's arguably Flagg's biggest alter ego and his 'main' persona in the context of Flagg's canon. The picture of Stephen King is a free image, so there's no problem keeping that. If anyone has any questions/problems/suggestions/whatever, let me know.--CyberGhostface (talk) 22:51, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Dark Tower: Sorcerer's origin

It's original research to make up excuses to explain the discrepancies that the new origin made with the old one. As it is, the backstory in DT7 is different from the one given in Sorcerer--its not a case of 'expanding', its a case of outright changing. Thus, we explain the differences without any further commentary on our part.--CyberGhostface (talk) 15:32, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Wait, who's becoming god now?

"Flagg made several more appearances in King's epic series The Dark Tower as one of the main antagonists, in which he attempts to thwart protagonist Roland Deschain from reaching the Tower, the lynchpin of all existence, to claim it for himself and become a god."

Who's trying to become a god - Flagg, or Roland? It isn't clear from the way that sentence is worded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.103.61 (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Its Flagg who wants to become god

Marten and Walter/Flagg

In the first paragraph of "appearances" "in comic books", it states that the comic supports that Flagg was not one of the characters. If Flagg were either then he would have to be the both. The scene where in the Citgo supports this. At the beginning of the meeting with Latigo Marten changes appearance to Walter.

Hang On...

Please don't tell me I'm the only one who looks at that button he has and wonders if it's not a Watchmen reference. Darqlink51 (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Whats your point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.246.11 (talk) 16:35, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Eyes of the Dragon - 2nd or 3rd appearance?

Was 'Eyes of the Dragon' Flagg's 2nd or 3rd appearance? It says both at different points in this article --Irrevenant [ talk ] 22:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Rudy Foggia

Is Rudy Foggia from "The Jaunt" not considered a part of the Randall Flagg entity? "The Jaunt" is supposed to be somewhat connected to the whole Dark Tower universe according to the Connections page of the Official Dark Tower website. "The Jaunt" is one of the short stories from Skeleton Crew. In the story within the story, Rudy Foggia is a convicted serial killer on death row who is offered a full pardon if he goes through the jaunt conscious. Rudy Foggia follows the RF convention and somewhat fits the RF type from what little is told about him. Given that "The Jaunt" is also considered to be officially connected to the Dark Tower, might Rudy Foggia--especially given what he experiences--be an incarnation of Randall Flagg? Oh2d (talk) 08:41, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that's probably a coincidence more than anything. Including it here would fall under original research either way.--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Discussion pertaining to non-free image(s) used in article

A cleanup page has been created for WP:FILMS' spotlight articles. One element that is being checked in ensuring the quality of the articles is the non-free images. Currently, one or more non-free images being used in this article are under discussion to determine if they should be removed from the article for not complying with non-free and fair use requirements. Please comment at the corresponding section within the image cleanup listing. Before contributing the discussion, please first read WP:FILMNFI concerning non-free images. Ideally the discussions pertaining to the spotlight articles will be concluded by the end of June, so please comment soon to ensure there is clear consensus. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 05:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Leland Gaunt

Could Leland Gaunt from Needful Things be a manifestation of Flagg? He is associated with the Lovecraftian deity Nyarlathotep who is stated to be Flagg in The Stand. --86.132.227.35 (talk) 17:10, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Probably not. Flagg claims to be Legion, too, and lies about not being both Marten and Walter in the Dark Tower series. Of course, Gaunt is certainly a kindred spirit to Flagg. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.60.33.73 (talk) 06:13, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Haven

In the new show "Haven", during the opening credits, one of the newspapers mentions the revered Flagg. Here's a screencap: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v705/mikep3313/Random/vlcsnap-21810.png

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Podgorski (talk • contribs) 15:59, 17 July 2010 (UTC) Michael Podgorski (talk) 16:06, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Amnesia

At various points in the Stand, Flagg is identified as Beelzebub and other Devils, but what interests me is that he seems to have a kind of amnesia.

Does this help him commit evil? He seems to forget everything he has achieved before.--MacRusgail (talk) 10:33, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not really clear on how this is intended to improve the article... Doniago (talk) 14:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.