Talk:Rolls-Royce Falcon

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Aviation: Engines

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Applications

This list is probably incomplete; I've added the Sprat. According to Jackson's Avro book the proposed RR powered 523C Pike variant was not built, but the bigger 529 was, with Falcons. According to Tapper on AW a/c the FK12 designation is probably not right but has been applied to the triplanes. However, the latter had Eagles.TSRL (talk) 17:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a look in a minute, Alec Lumsden's book is fairly comprehensive and accurate, back in a bit. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to Lumsden no Armstrong Whitworth aircraft used the Falcon. There is a Bristol 12 F.2A though, I will fill the list from his book and check it. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just noticed that I added the list (or some of it at least) and it does say AW F.K.12 in the reference I used. Will fill the list using both references and try to work it out. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure the FK.12 has a Falcon - according to Bruce's British Aeroplanes 1914-18 it had a 250 hp Eagle (although it wasn't called the Eagle then).Nigel Ish (talk) 22:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) All I'm sure of is that Mr Guttery wrote that aircraft in his book as an application, I have no information on the FK.12. myself. It's a genuine redlinked aircraft so we don't know for sure until some one writes the article (and even then it might not contain all the information). I've found with these early aircraft that they were used as test beds for many different engines, they still count as an application. I didn't believe it myself until I saw a photo that the Beaufighter used the Rolls-Royce Griffon. Best thing to do is start an article on the FK.12 and find as many good sources as possible, if it does not appear that the Falcon was involved then we can strike the redlink although that would still leave a mystery as to why it was said to be an application. Good point about not being called Eagle (they were designated by horsepower I think), that should be added to the early RR engine articles. Cheers Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 22:39, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did a bit of a search on the F.K. 12 and found a photo, certainly a big 'draggy' beast and would most likely need the larger Eagle to fly, maybe they tried the Falcon and it didn't get airborne?! A lot of Armstrong Whitworth's paperwork is kept at the National Archives in Coventry, I've used them for Armstrong Siddeley engines. There seems to be only one F.K.12 built, serial number 7838. All interesting stuff. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

s/n 7838 is the F.K. Triplane. Tapper's "best guess" is that it should be identified as the F.K. 6 (he gives some arguments for this. According to him it had 250 hp Eagles. That power would match either early Eagle or Falcon and the same description is applied by others to the engines of the FE2 and the Sopwith TT. I wonder whether Eagles and Falcons have been confused by some authors?

The Sopwith TT engine was also noted as an RR MkI. There is a record of DH4s (usually Eagles) having RR MkIII and IV.

Finally I can see no record of an RR powered Short 184, though a lot were built and I take the point about one-offs. Oh, and the RE7 is down as either Beardsmore or RAF4a: again, lots built.TSRL (talk) 11:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to Barnes Short Aircraft since 1900 (1967), p.116, one Short 184 (S.246) was fitted with a Eagle IV in January 1917 (and there's a photo) although no production ensued.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:18, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, should have spotted that! No Falcons mentioned, though Barnes calls it a 250 hp Eagle IV: see comment above.TSRL (talk) 12:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Has the 'FK.12' got three engines? I could see one prop on the nose and some pods in the wings like a 'Vimy' but could not see the other props. There is potential for overlapping use as the powers are similar with later Falcons having more power than early versions of the bigger capacity Eagle. Lumsden has another big list in an appendix, the list I used comes from the engine section where he lists applications by variant. The Short 184 has come from Guttery and is not listed by Lumsden. For the 184 Lumsden lists the Sunbeam Maori, Mohawk, Renault 12fe, and RR Eagle IV as its engines so I think it is safe to strike that one (although it still leaves a mystery). His AW list only goes up to 10 and does not include 6. Getting there! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "FK.12" has one engine - in the nose. The two wing 'pods' are for gunners.Nigel Ish (talk) 12:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've taken the 184 out. What is a Sopwith Tractor Triplane?!! Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Undent) Lumsden gives Sopwith L.R.T. Tr. Triplane but using an Eagle IV. Must be a different aircraft to the usual Sopwith Triplane. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 12:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[1] and [2] - photos of the LRTTR.Nigel Ish (talk) 13:05, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, definitely different! More www.aviastar.org/air/england/sopwith_lrtt.php says '250 hp Mk I' which is an Eagle I think. Will strike that one and move it to the Eagle page. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 13:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My list for what it's worth has the following as Eagles, not Falcons: DH4; AK.12; FE2 ; Viking. DH4 is also down as RR MkIII and Mk IV, the Viking as unspecified RR before Eagles. Of the others, I have not got evidence for Falcons in RE7 or FB14, though there were a lot of the former and a lot of engines in the latter. Don't think the 523C was built.TSRL (talk) 13:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bearing in mind the new variant notation, Jackson (DH aircraft) notes DH4s with 250 hp RR Mk III or IV. These according to the Eagle site are Eagles, so still no evidence for Falcons in DH4s.TSRL (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to Andrews and Morgan Vickers Aircraft since 1908, the FB.14D had Eagles, as did the FB.11. The Viking I had the Falcon, with the Viking II having the Eagle and Viking III the Lion.Nigel Ish (talk) 14:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DH4

I've removed DH 4, Lumsden gives many engine types for it but not the Falcon. All the 'iffy' ones seem to be coming from Guttery. I've just updated the Eagle list which helps to confirm all this. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lumsden gives Eagle for the FB.11 which agrees but Falcon I for the FB.14B and D.Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some gen from Flight 1954 [3] mentioning the 523C and interestingly the 'F.K. 12' as Falcon applications. They call the Pike a '529' where our article is '523'. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 14:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Avros

On the Avros: type 523 and 523A were called Pike, neither Rolls powered. Two more Pikes were planned but not built: 523B (Sunbeam engines) and 523C Rolls, probably Falcons. The Type 529 was a bigger relative, without a name and had Falcons. The second 529, called 529A did not have Falcons but B.H.P. engines. So our only entry should be "Avro 529".TSRL (talk) 15:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC) This is according to Jackson's Avro book.[reply]

Blackburn

Flight mentions the S.P.:according to Jackson's Blackburn book, this name was sometimes used for the secong G.P., the one with the Falcon engines.TSRL (talk) 16:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]