Talk:Rough Riders

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Untitled[edit]

This entire article has serious problems. It seems to have been written with the intent of servicing Roosevelt's internet fan base rather than providing an objective historical perspective. The writing is crass, poorly worded and confusing. Save the legends, mythology and hagiography for the History channel. On wikipedia it is best to stick with facts that are appropriate for an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.177.21.138 (talk) 15:34, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

For == trivia buffs, they carried .30-40 M1896 Krag-Jørgensen single shots. TR himself had a .38 DA Colt Navy. For nitpickers, they weren't correctly cavalry at all; they were dragoons, mounted infantry. Trekphiler 05:28, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore on the rifles, 1st USAVC was the only unit outside of the Regular Army that carried the KJ Rifles, and the only reason they had them is because Teddy ordered several crates from the American supplier of KJ weapons. Everyone else who carried a rifle carried Winchester 73 Rifles or older weapons in the case of the Volunteer units. It was the poor performance of the weapons available for this war that started the work on the Springfield .30 Caliber Rifle of 1903, and the M-1911 Colt Automatic Pistol.

CORNELIUSSEON 01:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed link to teddyroosevelt.com site[edit]

this is a clear violation of the wiki non-commercialization rule! this site shameless exploits TR's name - shame on them! Site is http://www.teddyroosevelt.com TeddyRoosevelt.com

SimonATL 22:48, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Um. Actually, I don't see anything particularly "commercial" about the site you excised. It has advertising, but many hobbyist sites -- including my own -- do that simply to help pay the bills. They don't appear to be peddling anything themselves. On the other hand, the site DOES appear to be pretty useless, with mostly dead-end links to empty pages and questionable information on other pages (esp the "Teddy Bear" story, which I know something about), so I agree with removing the link. --Michael K. Smith 21:14, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Spanish American War[edit]

  I am going to write about the Spanish American War. I am going to say about Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and philippine Islands. A bout Cuba, An American was immediatly proclaimed in Cuba with General John R. Brooke as commader. About Puerto Rico, on July 21,the first expedition to P.R. started on its way at 7:30pm last night.About Guam, Pursuant to the treaty of Paris in 1898 which ended the war between Spain and the U.S. The United States acquired sovergnity over Guam.About philippine Islands the day the war started where places as Malaya, Borneo, Burma, Wake Island, the philippine,Guam,Miaway, and Thailand.
  George Dewey was born in Montepilier,Vermont December 26,1837 appointed to naval academy.
  The rough Riders was the name between, by the American press on the 1st U.S.(united States)

This article needs updating with the excellent b/w photos available on the internet[edit]

I'll start working on this as time permits SimonATL 17:35, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Slightly Outnumbered?[edit]

Writer must not have been in the military which as standing doctrine going back to Napoleon that dictates that an attacker should have a 3 to 1 advantage and a 5 to 1 if the defender is heavely entrenched. In the case of the Spanish, they had every advantage including a complete unobscurred view of the Americans upon which they poured both machine gun and cannon fire. What the attacking Americans accomplished, volunteers as well as regulars, black and white should not be underestimated.


"The name was inspired by a play written by Christ late in the 16th century."[edit]

I've removed this entence from the intro, as it seems dubious (as well as unsourced), and is in apparent contradiction with the following paragraph, which says the name comes from Buffalo Bill Cody's traveling show. MayerG 04:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Roosevelt's Rough Riders Rye[edit]

"Roosevelt's Rough Riders Rye" ad (with picture of horse and rider)

I just found this amazing image of a wholesaler in Seattle in 1900 advertising a whiskey called "Roosevelt's Rough Riders Rye". Not sure if this belongs in the article, but there is nothing else about it anywhere on the Internet, and it certainly is at least an interesting curiosity. - Jmabel | Talk 19:54, 11 November 2007 (UTC) ==

== biiiiyeah gay ==

cleanup of Early Formation and History section needed[edit]

Anyone interested, please feel free to cleanup the text below. The following section of Early Formation and History needs to be re-written:

The war was not easy at all they ever not hard was done largely by Roosevelt, and resulted in a widely varied force consisting of seasoned ranch hands, Pawnee scouts, Ivy League athletes, cowboys, policemen, and east-coast polo players, among others who represented a broad cross-section of American society.

Permanentblue UTC: Friday, October, 31, 2008 - 20:43:19 —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC).

2 things[edit]

First, you say "The United States army was weakened and left with little manpower after the Civil War roughly 30 years prior." What does that mean. "after the Civil war roughly 30 years prior."???

Second, you never say when the cavalry began. You say that they were raised for the Spanish American war... as if they knew it was coming! They were there before hand, and you never specify when.

I didn't even read on after finding that. Please fix.

99.7.210.0 (talk) 00:08, 29 May 2009 (UTC) m93samman

Worse still, this article reads like a story. This needs some serious rework to conform to encyclopedia standards--217.206.99.134 (talk) 16:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

The charge up Kettle Hill - balanced?[edit]

Hello,

I have some concerns about TR starting the American charge. There is evidence to refute that. See below. And the non-mention of adjacent units which assisted the 1st Vol. Cav. on Kettle Hill gives a biased view. For example, the first Flag to the top of Kettle Hill was the 10th Cav and the Sgt who had that flag took the 3rd Cav flag up with him. "BlackJack" Pershing made it to the top after the 1st Vol Cav flag got there and was present when TR arrived. See: Battle of San Juan Hill

Evidence (letters, documents, letters of reccomendation for a medal from his commanding officer and his general) now shows the an officer with the 10th Cav started the charge and they were the only unit to go up both San Juan and Kettle Hill! The units to the right of the 10th were asked to support the regulars when they charged. Who were these two units? They were the 3rd Cav & 1st Vol Cav. How can this article and the TR article be fixed and given a more balanced view?

I provide the following, so the reader does not have to bounce around various articles. Jrcrin001 (talk) 07:01, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

start selection.

First Lieutenant Jules "Garry" Ord, 6th US Infantry Regiment, became a brigade staff officer under Brigadier General Hamilton S. Hawkins who then commanded the 1st Brigade, 1st Division, V Corps, in Cuba. Due to disease and other casualties many staff officers were directed to serve with the line units. Ord asked to be sent to D Troop of the 10th where a family friend John Bigelow, Jr. was in command.[1]

"I sent Jules to General Hawkins to entreatie for an attack. He asked "General, if you will order a charge, I will lead it."

No doubt the old General remembered (the) costly charges against the entrenched enemy during the last war. And maybe hesitated at that memory. Jules then declared, "If you do not wish to order a charge, General, I should like to volunteer." Then after another pause he pleaded, "May I volunteer? We can't stay here, can we?"

"I would not ask any man to volunteer." was the reply. "If you do not forbid it, I will start it," answered Jules.

The General turned toward the Heights as if deciding Jules fate. He stated the brigades were not all on line. General Hawkins told me that he had a terrible feeling as he looked upon Jules, but Jules firmly stated, "I only ask you not to refuse permission." The reply was, "I will not ask for volunteers, nor will I will not give permission and ... I will not refuse it."

Jules saluted smartly with a broad smile. As Jules left the old General called out, "God bless you and good luck!" ... The General told me that he knew the fight was going to be costly, but that Jules had taken a weight off his shoulders."

Captain John Bigelow, Jr., 10th U.S. Cavalry, D Troop in a letter home.[2][1]

[2]

Ord went forward and encouraged other officers to support the regulars when they charged. When he reached D Troop, he was out-of-breath, but with a wide grin. He reported to Bigelow what had happened and that other units on the right were going to support a charge. He asked his friend for permission to give the command. It was granted. Ord then drew his revolver and his sword. Then with eyes upon him he stood and yelled, "Forward!" With a determined step he went up the hill.[1]

The black Buffalo soldiers of the 10th then rose from where they had been hiding from the Spanish fire and began a stride toward the steep heights. Ord advanced through blistering fire and was heard to yell, "Come on -- come on, you fellows! Come on -- we can't stop now."[2][1]

About 150 yards from the top the men began a maniacal rush toward the top. Bigelow was hit but continued to urge his men forward. He was then hit in quick succession by three Spanish bullets which caused him to fall. Several soldiers present reported that he encouraged them with, "Men, don't stop for me, just keep up the charge until you get to the top of the hill." His men did so and was able to take the main block house and provided covering fire for those attacking adjacent to them.[1]

Ord was reportedly the first officer to reach the top and began directing supporting fire when he was hit in the throat, mortally wounded. He dropped his pistol and sword and sat down grasping his neck. Corporal Walker, of D Troop, killed his officer's assailant, then tried to help Ord. Walker stated that Ord had made a statement before he bled to death. The essence was that if the 10th had not been separated by the draw between the two hills, they would have taken the heights already. Ord was then buried on the hill.[1]

Young Gary Ord did not receive recognition for his actions on San Juan Hill. The Army quietly turned down the requests for a medal for his heroism from his commanding officer and his commanding general.[2][1]

end selection.

Return Home Section[edit]

I've a primary source letter written by TR about their travel back home after San Juan Hill. Its very detailed and explains more thoroughly the terrible conditions his men were left in on their return from San Juan Hill (he writes as if everything has broken down and they've been abandoned with no transportation, clothing, decent food, or medical care)... If someone, more able than I, could expand here, I think its important information if you'll take a look at what he wrote: http://www.shapell.org/manuscript.aspx?theodore-roosevelt-deprivations-suffered-by-rough-riders-after-san-juan-hill

Aside from this, I find the last sentence of the first paragraph in this section to be written in a confusing manner, sort of tacked on an not integrated: "Everyone received fresh food and most were nourished back to their normal health.[2]:129" LFevas (talk) 09:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

References[edit]

  1. ^ a b c d e f g Kinevan, Marcos E., Brigadier General, USAF, retired (1898). Frontier Cavalryman, Lieutenant John Bigelow with the Buffalo Soldiers in Texas. Texas Western Press, The University of Texas at El Paso. ISBN 0-87404-243-7. 
  2. ^ a b c d Arlington National Cemetery (2005). "Jules Garesche Ord, First Lieutenant, United States Army". Arlington National Cemetery. Arlington National Cemetery web site. Retrieved August 31, 2009.  See also: Delayed after action report of D Troop by Bigelow on December 18, 1898.

Photos of Rough Riders[edit]

Two photos of the Rough Riders are shown in the article: one with a wider angle showing more soldiers and Roosevelt without a hat, the other showing fewer soldiers and Roosevelt with a hat. The caption gives an original title of "Colonel Roosevelt and his Rough Riders at the top of the hill which they captured, Battle of San Juan" for the first photo, and refers to the second as being cropped to remove other regiments. However, the title given is the title of the second photo fide the Library of Congress http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/96521936/ , and it is not cropped from the original at the Library of Congress. Although the source of the first photo is said to be the Library of Congress, I cannot find it in their online digital catalog. MayerG (talk) 04:43, 26 July 2016 (UTC)