Talk:Saints Cyril and Methodius

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Warning!Their origin is unknown[edit]

Please, stop to add "Greek", "Bulgarian" or "Slavic" origin in the beginning of article. Quote from the book "The Byzantine world' by D. Georgiev, 2004, Prosveta, page N114: There are 3 hypotheses about the origin of Cyril and Methodius: 1)Greek - it is being established as the hypothesis that the two brothers have greek origin. 2)Bulgarian - it is being established as the pieces of work for the apocryphal literature and the more late documents where it is claimed that they are Bulgarians. 3)Mixed - they have a Bulgarian mother and a Greek father. None of the three hypotheses is confirmed. We have no evidences about their origin. The serious historians do not use this question in their works. Every theories which considered brothers as Greek, Bulgarian or Macedonian origin are biased and in the majority of cases can be with fantastic character or effect of political propaganda. Similar theories can not be viewed as historically correct opinions.--Stolichanin (talk) 19:05, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Depends on how you look on the matter. The brothers had two parents, but the sources confirm the nationality of only one of them: their father was of Byzantine Greek origin, who served in high positions in the Byzantine Empire and the local theme of Macedonia. However, I am not sure how the unknown nationality of their mother, (some sources say she was Bulgarian, other sources claim she was Serbian but there is no real concensus on her origins) automatically makes the nationality of the brothers themselves be in question. In There are many theories, but we can't ignore the fact that there is a consensus among the academic people that Cyril and Methodius where Byzantine Greeks in every aspect of their life: 1) They were born as Byzantine Greek citizens, 2) they were given Byzantine Greek birthnames, 3) Their mother tongue was the Byzantine Greek language, 4) were born in the historically Greek city of Thessaloniki, although this has little relevance, but it relates to their birthplace and 5) were members of the Greek Orthodox Church. That said, the sources mentioning of their mother being of Slavic origin, combined with theories whether their family already had Greek roots, or just were hellenized (or not), prior to their birthdate, haven't reached a concensus in the academaic community and remain unclear for the most part. --SilentResident (talk) 09:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Stolichanin, I have noticed the removal of over 8 sources from the page that have been added by other Wikipedia users. The removal of so many sources, and doing edits without citing any sources from your part, as well as the lack of a good and verified explanation on regards to their removal, forced me to revert your edits. Until sources and explanations are provided for these changes of yours, at least here in the Talk page, is better to not remove sourced information by other people just based on your personal POVs. If can you please explain in a detailed manner (and with sources if possible) your changes, that could be great. I do not dispute your information, but I couldn't recommend just removing so many sources like that and without citing any new sources backing these changes. Thank you. --SilentResident (talk) 15:39, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
The authors do not indicate any evidence of their origin. The term "Greeks" does not exist in the Middle Ages. "Byzantine" and "Greek" are two different things. The Byzantine can be Armenian, Syrian, Georgian, etc. The national idea was born in 18th - 19th century.--Stolichanin (talk) 17:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Their origins are completely uncertain and disputed. They may have been simply of mixed origin, all the theories are not an evidence. I agree that in the Middle Ages any Greek identity vanished because the Greeks of the Byzantine Empire were completely assimilated and viewed themselves as Romans, although kept speaking Greek. It is unknown as to whether Cyril and Methodius have ever affiliated to Greek or Slavic identity, so both are only theories and should be explained apart from the leading sentence. Their origins are unknown to me, only that Byzantium is their birthplace and that they are polyglots is certain. I do not defend any point or position, I am unaware of their origins and therefore doubt the statement at the lead, nobody can guess and all the theories should be mentioned to achieve an essential balance.

Sources theorizing their Slavic origin:

  • 1. Mortimer Chambers, Barbara Hanawalt, Theodore Rabb, Isser Woloch, Raymond Grew. The Western Experience with Powerweb. Eighth Edition. McGraw-Hill Higher Education 2002. University of Michigan. p. 214. ISBN 9780072565447
... Two Christian brothers of Slavic descent, Cyril and Methodius, set out in about 862 as missionaries from the Byzantine ...
  • 2. Balkan Studies, Volume 22. Hidryma Meletōn Chersonēsou tou Haimou (Thessalonikē, Greece). The Institute, 1981. Original from the University of Michigan. p. 381
... Being of Slavic descent, both of them spoke the old Slavic language fluently ...
  • 3. Loring M. Danforth. The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World. Princeton University Press, 1995. p. 49 ISBN 9780691043562.
... In the ninth century two brothers Cyril and Methodius, Macedonian educators of Slavic origin from Solun, brought literacy and Christianity to the Slavs...
  • 4. Ihor Ševčenko. Byzantium and the Slavs: In Letters and Culture'. Harvard Ukrainian Research Institute, 1991. p. 481. ISBN 9780916458126
... 63-68 (Cyril and Methodius were Slavs) ... There remains that argument for Cyril's and Methodius' Slavic origin which has to do with the Slavic translation of the Gospels and ...
  • 5. Roland Herbert Bainton. Christianity: An American Heritage Book Series. Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2000. p. 156. ISBN 9780618056873
... Two missionaries of Slavic origin, Cyril (baptized Constantine) and Methodius, adapted the Greek alphabet and translated both the Bible and the liturgy into the Slavic tongue...
  • 6. John Shea. Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation. McFarland, 1997. p. 56 . ISBN 9780786437672
..Byzantine emperor Michael, on the request of the Moravian prince Ratislav, decided to send Slav priests as educators, he chose the Salonika brothers Cyril and Methodius...
  • 7. UNESCO Features: A Fortnightly Press Service. UNESCO. United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, 1984. University of Michigan
... They may have been of wholly Slavic descent or of mixed Greco-Slav origin...
  • 8. The Pakistan Review, Volume 19. Ferozsons Limited, 1971. University of California. p. 41
... century in Salonika, then one of the largest towns in the Byzantine Empire. The brothers were of Slav origin ... 
  • 9. Balkania, Volume 7. Balkania Publishing Company, 1973. Indiana University. p. 10
... Cyril and Methodius not only lived among Slavs. ... of Slavonic, which the not only spoke and understood, but in which they also wrote — translated and composed — and for which they invented an alphabet, is proof of their Slav origin ...
  • 10. Bryce Dale Lyon, Herbert Harvey Rowen, Theodore S. Hamerow. A history of the Western World, Volume 1. Rand McNally College Pub. Co., 1974. Northwestern University. p. 239
... brothers of Slavic origin, Cyril and Methodius, who, after being ordained at Constantinople, preached the Gospel to the Slavs...
  • 11. Roland Herbert Bainton. The history of Christianity. Nelson, 1964. p. 169
...Two missionaries of Slavic origin, Cyril (baptized Constantine) and Methodius, adapted the Greek alphabet and translated both the Bible and the liturgy into the Slavic tongue...
  • 12. Carl Waldman, Catherine Mason. Encyclopedia of European Peoples: Facts on File library of world history. Infobase Publishing, 2006. p. 752. ISBN 9781438129181
... There is disagreement as to whether Cyril and his brother Methodius were Greek or Slavic, but they knew the Slavic dialect spoken in Macedonia...
  • 13. Frank Andrews. Ancient Slavs'. Worzalla Publishing Company, 1976. University of Wisconsin - Madison. p. 163.
... Cyril and Methodius derived from a rich family of Salonica, perhaps of Slavic origin, but Grecized in those times. Methodius (815-885) ...
  • 14. Johann Heinrich Kurtz, John Macpherson. Church History. Hodder and Stoughton, 1891. University of California. p. 431
.. Born at Thessalonica, and so probably of Slavic descent, at least acquainted with the language of the Slavs, ... 
  • 15. William Leslie King. Investment and Achievement: A Study in Christian Progress. Jennings and Graham, 1913. Columbia University.
.. This man and his brother Cyril became the and Cyril apostles of the Slavic people. These two brothers seemed to have been raised up for such a mission. They were probably of Slavic descent ...

Sources theorizing at least partial Slavic or mixed origin(should also be mentioned as an option in the description):

  • 1. Philip Lief Group. Saintly Support: A Prayer For Every Problem. Andrews McMeel Publishing, 2003. p. 37. ISBN 9780740733369
.. Cyril was born of Greek nobility connected with the senat of Thessalonica, although his mother may have been of Slavic descent ...
  • 2. John Shea. Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation. McFarland, 1997. p. 56 . ISBN 9780786437672
... The father of Cyril and Methodius, Lev, was a Macedonian Slav in the Byzantine service, occupying the post of assistant to the ...
  • 3. UNESCO Features: A Fortnightly Press Service. United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization., 1984. University of Michigan
... They may have been of wholly Slavic descent or of mixed Greco-Slav origin...
  • 4. Proceedings of the PMR Conference, Volumes 16-20. Augustinian Historical Institute, Villanova University, 1992. p.
... (The legend also suggests that their mother may have been of Slavic origin)...
  • 5. Tamara Archleb Gály. The Encyclopaedia of Slovakia and the Slovaks: A Concise Encyclopaedia Encyclopaedia Beliana. p. 436. ISBN 9788022409254
... of Cyril-Constantine. His mother's name was Mary and some maintain that she was of Slavic origin. ...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Judist (talkcontribs) 05:33, 26 November 2015 (UTC) 

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2015[edit]

Please, add Slovak language version (section Notes)

Verification: Andreios (talk) 11:45, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Ethnic origin obsession[edit]

This whole discussion completely misses the point. The "Byzantine Greek" in the lede has nothing to do with "ethnic origin" or any such thing, it merely refers to their culture and political affiliation. They were educated and wrote in Greek, and were subjects of the Byzantine Empire. That their mother may have been a Slav is mentioned clearly in the "Early life" section. This sort of edit [1] is extremely crude POV-pushing, in terms of wording, placement, etc... Athenean (talk) 07:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. But this is part of wider POV campaign across several ARBMAC-related articles. It is very disruptive and has to stop. Also there has been canvassing by the same editor for support. Dr. K. 06:27, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

The annoying POV allegation obsession[edit]

Removing 15 sources because you do not like the way it is and call it POV is scandaleous. Is that justification that everything is simply POV preferred over my detailed research above? I may have added more research than has ever been made at this article, but you can just call it POV and revert it, no problem, why not? Falsely alleged "POV" and "disruptive" and has been reverted because that's not what you like. Calling anything POV have become the justification at any article, this is not an explanation detailed, and normal. That's far from disruptive edits, even worse. The allegations for canvassing are a personal attack. And please next time use explanation other than "POV" or "disruptive edits"! Other than "POV" once again, this doesn't mean anything! Somebody please check and confirm that the recent additions are not an extreme POV or disruptive.Judist (talk) 06:51, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
WP:IDHT, anyone? Instead of whining, try to read what I've written above. Athenean (talk) 07:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
I don't need to read your frivolous tiny statement numerous times, while I made a huge research above which you ignored and removed without any justification! Judist (talk) 07:03, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Still there is no fair explanation for the removal of the whole research containing twelve reliable sources. Please check them and revert yourself.Judist (talk) 17:57, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no one medieval chronicle, which considered themselves as "Greeks" or "Byzantine Greeks". It's late 19th century interpretation, which is too controversial. Byzantine Greek is some very strange concept as whole - during the 9th century "Greeks" means "Non-Christians" (check in Byzantine historiography). The Byzantine people are Romans (Romaion) according to the Byzantine chronists or often they think themselves like a "Christians". There are two chronicles from 12th century, where they are identified as Bulgarians. Their contemporaries talk about their Slavic origin on mother's line.
Yet there is a version that they have a some kind of Greeks and that many sources says. But many other reliable sources considered them as Slavs or people of Slavic origin.
The reliable sources above, presenting by Judist prove their Slavic origin and this POV must be represented in the article like the version about the Greek origin, I think. --Stolichanin (talk) 17:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)