Talk:Second Battle of Oituz

Creation

The creation of this article was discussed here and here (try here if archived). Certes (talk) 15:08, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Geographic places

I'll list the geographic places mentioned just to make the situation clear (mind, talking about a place in a foreign country which I know very little of is already confusing enough) and make sure everything is coherent (also as valid information to anybody interested in the topic but which probably doesn't go in the article). So far, we have:

• "Sosmezo" is modern day Poiana Sărată.
• "D. Lespedii" is not findable via a google search, but taking the geographical description (3 km NW of Sosmezo) this would be at about 46°09'24.7"N 26°25'03.2"E
• "Klárák" I have no clue about, though ostensibly it would be in the vicinity of Oituz/Ojtoz, to the east. Anybody with access to an old sufficiently detailed Hungarian map is free to suggest what the modern place name in Romania would be.

Cheers RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:13, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

D.(=Dealu) Lespedii is Gyalu Leszpedin, between Vrf. Brezoiului and Vrf. Cernica, it has been the turning point of the Hungarian border then.

Klárák you may found in this map ([1]) indicated by "9.", I doubt you'd find a modern Romanian name for that, if not here, in a different form ([2]).(KIENGIR (talk) 04:41, 28 June 2020 (UTC))

@KIENGIR: Well at least the Romanian source appears to have a parallel text in French so that will help! In any case it is a relatively minor location so I think it is probably not worth the trouble. I'll investigate later. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:16, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: I will check the Romanian names mentioned. As a general observation, as the battle was fought on the territory of Romania, the original names of the paces used in the text has to be in Romanian, alongside with their translation in German and Hungarian. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:14, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Macreanu Iulian: Thank you very much for your clarifications here and elsewhere on the talk page. Regarding place names: I think we should use those as they were at the time - so Hungarian (with modern Romanian in parenthesis) when the locality was not in Romania at the time, and Romanian first when in Romania (though for consistency I would not object to one of those styles being kept consistently throughout - and since I based my text here on the usage of the Austro-Hungarian official history that takes precedence for the time being). This seems to be partly what is done in the Austrio-Hungarian OH, with the caveat that they don't give the other language - just to take the examples above, they consistently use Ojtoz, and Sosmezo is Hungarian and was on the Hungarian side of the border; Dealu Lespedii (Gyalu Leszpedin in Hungarian) is given as "D. Lespedii" in the OH.). They don't give the German either, except for a few places which appear as such on the map, (eg. Kronstadt), but that one doesn't appear in the narrative here, so I don't know if they would give it in German in the text. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:45, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Concur with RandomCanadian, we use consistently the names regarding contemporary status quo and whereabouts, in appropriate context, we cannot represent properly everything projected to modern situations that could be misleading, etc. Usually I am not opposing any other names mentioned, however the German names are less relevant here, which are more likely to used in special Saxon or German related context, or in general regarding Transylvania, but this article is dedicated especially the events between Romania and Hungary. Ojtoz/Oituz may appear both sides, since there is as well a river, village/city and other geographic units may be, due the events encompassing a broader area the river seems the best link. I may help with deciphering names, the case of D. Lespedii was not easy, but I solved, Klárák was even harder, but finally got it, I think in all cases we may find an appropriate solution, practically military record described some consecutive peaks on the Hungarian-Romanian border, and regardless of name etymology or origin, the form is determined on which side it was then.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:45, 3 July 2020 (UTC))

I agree with not using German (unless it's a Saxon-populated place), using Hungarian and Romanian for places then in Austria-Hungary and only Romanian for places that were then in Romania. We may need to use Hungarian in some places in Romania for the Csangos (who live precisely in Bacău County), although they were not in the border. And yes, Oituz as a river is the best link, the village was then called Grozești. Super Ψ Dro 10:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank You for your courtesy, however, the usage of Hungarian names in Csango areas are facultative, but of course won't oppose.(KIENGIR (talk) 21:39, 7 July 2020 (UTC))

Music

In the battle section, there's a sentence which says the Romanians attacked to the sound of the music. Do you know which song it was? It could be Treceți, batalioane române, Carpații, a popular song during WWI in the country. I found a German translation; it would be something like "Überschreitet, rumänische Bataillone, die Karpaten" in German sources. It would be cool to know the song for both the article and the DYK hook. Super Ψ Dro 09:14, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: Sadly the only thing I have is the Austrian-Hungarian official history, which states:

Hingegen hatten die Bayern am 12. auf der jüngst genommenen Grenzhöhe acht Anstürme abzuschlagen, die vom Feinde unter Musikklängen ungestüm vorgetragen worden waren. pp. 516-517

I.e. in English

However, on the 12th, the Bavarians had to repel eight assaults on the recently taken border heights, which the enemy carried out impetuously, to the sound of music.

I guess that in the heat of battle the exact song would not have been a very important detail for the soldiers. If it was noted down it would be recorded either in the unit war diaries (I know that a lot if not all of the primary material for German units did not survive WW2 so can't expect much from the Bavarians) or in Romanian sources (which I don't have access to and wouldn't understand very well either, although the song seems rather fit for purpose). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:07, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I guess it would make more sense for it to appear in Romanian sources. I tried to find anything and I found some sources saying it was maybe played during the Third Battle of Oituz (not sure though, I didn't have full access to those books), but I found nothing about the second battle. Super Ψ Dro 13:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: Romanian sources mentioned this ”music episode”, too. For sure, the song was not ”Treceți batalioane române Carpații” as the song originated from the period of the WWII (20 years latter). More probably was the ”cântecul regimentului” (”the song of the regiment”), as each regiment from the Romania Armed Forces of the time had a specific and distinct song (a kind of ”hymn”). Unfortunately, most of those regiment songs were lost during the communist era, when most of the traditions of the Royal Romanian Army were ignored or banned. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:10, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

It would not make sense for the song to appear in WW2, Romania already had part of Transylvania and most of the fight was not in the Carpathians, unlike Romania in WW1. But yes, that regiment song seems more likely. Super Ψ Dro 10:31, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Re. sources

@Biruitorul: The edition (1989) must surely be a reprint or something. ro:A_doua_bătălie_de_la_Oituz_(1916)#Bibliografie has a full bibliography, but apparently whoever started writing it didn't have time to complete it, though I have left them a little message in case they can help us here. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 12:21, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Both WorldCat and GBooks suggest the book is by Constantin Olteanu (1928-2018), late Ceaușescu-era Defense Minister, Mayor of Bucharest, and sometime military historian. - Biruitorul ^Talk 13:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

This suggests it is indeed by Kiritescu. You must have gotten the wrong book on WorldCat because it appears to be this one... RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:47, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I was talking about Istoria militară a poporului român, wrongly attributed to Ioanițiu instead of Olteanu, not Istoria războiului pentru întregirea României, rightly attributed to Kirițescu. - Biruitorul ^Talk 16:26, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

 Fixed It might very likely be an error on the Romanian page as the author is not listed but simply replaced with "***" (logical interpretation of which would indicate that it should be the same as the last listed author). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 18:20, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@RandomCanadian: You can find here a very detailed bibliography regarding participation of Romania in WWI. I have all of them, so if you need a specific piece of information, please do not hesitate to contact me. I am quite busy in the real life and not very active now on Wikipedia, but I will try to help you.

Regarding the book ”Istoria militară a poporului român, vol. V, Editura Militară, București, 1987” it has no particular author mentioned, but a collective and annonymous name ”Comisia Română de Istorie Militară” (Romanian Commision of Military History). There is no connection with former communist leader Ioan Olteanu, so it has to be cited without an author. --Macreanu Iulian (talk) 19:01, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Macreanu Iulian: Thanks for the clarification about the author. It's possible to cite a collective author (and it is preferable to citing no author) so I will put that instead. Regarding sources, what would be most useful would be something akin to the A-H official history (which gives a relatively well detailed account of events at the division, and even down to regimental/battalion level), but from the Romanian side. I don't know which one of these would best fit into that category, though surely you should be able to tell me if there's one which does.

Since I can't seem to get access to the original German version; the volume on the campaign by Falkenhayn (1921, the romanian version given at the romanian page for this article is from 1937) might be an interesting source too if it mentions this battle (though it won't help me with the already Austro-German centric coverage).

Nevermind the Falkenhayn, I just got a reply to the request I sent at the appropriate place and this should be made available soon so no assistance required.

Alternatively, if what I'm looking for doesn't exist, an alternative could be trying to point me towards primary sources: I don't know if the Romanians kept something like the equivalent of war diaries and if those are available on the internet (compare with the Canadian ones). Those can be also a great help if there's not much mention in secondary sources: I know I previously (long time ago) used part of those to expand an article about a Canadian WWI military unit (I could point at it but that would reveal my IP so I'll just say it's a Canadian military unit...). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The result was: rejected by Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that during the Second Battle of Oituz, Romanian troops attacked Bavarian troops impetuously, to the sound of music? Source: Glaise von Horstenau & Brauner 1932, p. 517
  • ALT1:... that the Second Battle of Oituz ended with a temporary truce to bury the dead? Source: Glaise von Horstenau & Brauner 1932, p. 518.

• Reviewed: Did you know nominations/The Who by Numbers Tour
• Comment: Thanks to the help of various other editors who provided assistance in translation, bug fixes and copy editing, but first to User:Certes for bringing the issue up at WP:MILHIST. If you insist I can provide quotes and translations from the German text (which is available online anyway), or you can just AGF that there's been enough eyes on this that it should be fine.

Converted from a redirect by RandomCanadian (talk). Self-nominated at 01:28, 28 June 2020 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited:
• Interesting:
• Other problems: - The first hook uses POV language "impetuously"; in the past, it was not unusual to attack with music. The second hook is also not terribly unusual phenomenon in warfare.

QPQ: Done.

Overall: buidhe 21:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

@Buidhe: It's not my language it's that of the source (the foreign - "enemy" - official history: they take note of it in this particular instance, which probably makes it a remarkable event). And it is not that far in the past: WWI, with artillery and machine guns... Anyway, I have no source or knowledge that says that this was common practice (save, maybe, for the Scottish) in Romania or generally in European armies at the time (in fact, as far as I know, it was not common at all, and 1916 is a long way removed from the "guns of August" of 1914... And WWI is usually seen as a ceaseless conflict and this certainly wouldn't be the only "temporary truce" in this conflict which is worthy of mention RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 22:26, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

• @Buidhe: Hi, it's been a month since the nominator responded. Where is this nomination holding? Yoninah (talk) 19:09, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• I just don't see either proposed hook as sufficiently interesting for DYK, unless you can be more specific about what type of music was used. Even if you added more context, it's not particularly interesting or unusual. the US Army used drummers until 1917 apparently which is after this event. (t · c) buidhe 19:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Fair enough. Back to you, RandomCanadian. Yoninah (talk) 19:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Nominator has been blocked as an LTA. Review still counts as a QPQ for Buidhe, as far as I'm concerned, but no purpose in keeping the nomination open further. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)|}}

Procedurally reopening as the block was incorrect and overturned on appeal - Whether anybody considers this still timely for purposes of DYK I will leave to somebody else to judge. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:17, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2022 (UTC)