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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

Disruptive editing

Please do not remove the references, and add your personal views. Read WP:OR.--Zoupan 19:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek

Endribinaj (talk · contribs) removed the reference regarding Koleka's belonging to the Greek community with the comment "Dear Wikipedia editors. I am one of the same family as Spiro Koleka. We are not Greeks! The last name Koleka is of a catholic origin comprised of the names Kol + Leka. Please do not spread rumors as to our ethnicity. Spiro never spoke Greek." As to stop future vandalism and open a dialogue to possible vandals: Spiro Koleka is mentioned as having been part of the Greek community – this is supported by the facts that the village of Vuna is historically Greek, and still today partly Greek-speaking. His name, Spiro, is derived from Greek, while the surname, based on your claim, could only derive from diminutives of Nicholas (Kol) and Alexander (Leka), both which are derived through Greek. On Wikipedia, we adhere to Neutral point-of-view. Please understand that Spiro's Greek origin does not make your family less Albanian.--Zoupan 00:18, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Zoupan (talk · contribs) stop vandalizing the page that I created for Spiro Koleka! I know better his origin as he was my family member! I will report you for spreading separatist propaganda with your Wikipedia edits. I am the second family member addressing this concern to you, but you are still forcing this false information through. If you have a source make sure that it is accurate and credible. If someone challenges the accuracy of your source it is your duty to investigate the claim and remove the contested text until clarified. You cannot bully other people in Wikipedia just because you are a more experienced user. The village of Vuno is not Greek speaking, historically Greek, or a minority village. If you insist, then provide an official/historic proof of the opposite. Himara is not a village as your source says, but it is a city. If you insist, then provide an official/historic proof of the opposite. Spiro Koleka does not have a Greek origin just because someone wrote that he has, although not showing any evidence. Having a Greek name does not mean that a person is Greek. Half the world has Jewish names, but that does not imply they are Jewish, obviously. I do not understand your zeal into telling us where we come from when we know better than you and do not need to read two lines out of a booklet of 54 pages that you found on the internet. Keep your edits constructive and away from propaganda. Try to stay away from editing information that is unknown to you. Respect other users less experienced than you. Burridheut 21:31, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Read WP:OWN and WP:NPOV. I have provided a reference, perhaps you could refute it with another one. The Vuno elders, interestingly, identify as Northern Epirotes, see Basilēs G. Nitsiakos; Vassilis Nitsiakos (2010). On the Border: Transborder Mobility, Ethnic Groups and Boundaries Along the Albanian-Greek Frontier. LIT Verlag Münster. pp. 466–. ISBN 978-3-643-10793-0.. Himara is a town. I mentioned the name only because Endribinaj (talk · contribs) did claim that somehow his name would be "evidence" that he was of Albanian Catholic origin rather than Greek. I am not telling you where you come from, and your reply only shows that you have a very narrow view of what Albanian nationality means.--Zoupan 17:01, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

My view is as narrow as your understanding of the history of the region you are mentioning and its people. Just because a book mentions some elders (without names, or historic data to support it) that claim that they are north Epirotes, does not mean that Spiro Koleka was of Greek origin. So please stop beating around the bush and remove the contested text yourself from the page of Spiro Koleka. I don't have time to go through more than a 100 years of Greek separatist propaganda with you and convince you of the opposite. If you cannot prove that Spiro Koleka had Greek or otherwise minority origin through an official document or reference to an official government document, then please cease this campaign of cyber-bullying and remove your disputed text from my article asap! This perhaps is amusing for you, but for me and my family it is not. This is highly insulting towards us, especially coming from a person with no clue regarding our origin! You need to respect other people that know their own history and lineage better than you. Keep this professional please. Burridheut

This is not your article. Is the fact that Edi Rama's mother belonged to the family, and that somehow Koleka's Greek origin would discredit him or the family, have anything to do with it? I think that you simply don't like it.--Zoupan 17:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Now you showed your motivation to deform history! It's about politics! How unprofessional! Here, the Spiro GOGO Koleka you are talking about is another one. There is a full book about him (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B05baDRIUAAHQA3.jpg). The Spiro Koleka I have written about is another one. He is Spiro THOMA Koleka. I told you that you don't know his history. Now leave that article as it was and stop making propaganda on this page. Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

What? Elsie calls the communist-period Spiro Koleka, this article, as "Spiro Gogo Koleka". His father according to Elsie was "Spiro J. Koleka". Your comment makes no sense, and still doesn't refute that Koleka was of the Greek community.--Zoupan 17:50, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

If Spiro Koleka had the middle name Thoma, you can present the source here. It does, however, not change anything other than his middle name.--Zoupan 17:55, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Spiro Jorgo Koleka (born 1879) and Spiro Gogo Koleka (studied in Austria) are the same person. Gogo as a name is short form of Jorgo. So, until here there is no father and no son, just one person. This Spiro Koleka was not communist, but has had the same position in the Albanian government as the other, later Spiro Koleka which was born 29 years later (studied in Italy)!!! There is another wikipedia page about the Spiro Gogo Koleka but it is only in albanian. The Spiro Koleka in this article is the second one, not related at all (let alone being the son) with the first one. The Spiro Thoma Koleka this article is about died in 2001. If he was the same person as the first one we would have been 121 years old! I told you to check the numbers, but you kept spamming the article! You are writing about another person, not related by family. Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 18:10, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Again, you make no sense. Elsie seems to have used "Gogo" erranously. Still doesn't change anything regarding this article. This Spiro Koleka (died 2001), is the son of Spiro Jorgos Koleka (died 1940), with Jorgos being 28 at the time of the birth. I cannot find "Thoma" anywhere. If you have a source that claims that Spiro Koleka was not the son of Spiros Jorgos, you may present it here. Now to another question: A comment at a newspaper article says that Koleka was Greek, and had a brother, Petros, the father of Aneta Koleka, and also that they had ancestry of the Nousis family. Are there sources that say that Aneta Koleka and Spiros Koleka were relatives?--Zoupan 18:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Maybe he is your father. Let's add that to wikipedia, shall we? --Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:47, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Found an article about Edi Rama being a relative of Spiro here.--Zoupan 18:37, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Father

Spiro Jorgo Koleka was, according to sources, the father of Spiro Koleka.--Zoupan 08:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

According to Spiro Thoma Koleka himself, his family relatives, and HIS OWN GRAVE STONE he is the son of THOMA Koleka. Your sources are incorrect, they have no official references, as you can see if you read any of those and this edit war of yours is just pathetic. --Burridheut — Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Present reliable (correct) sources. Take it easy, breathe, you have time to unravel the mystery.--Zoupan 20:44, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
His daughter's interview. Iliriana Koleka (so much for the Greek, where did you read such claims by the way?) talks about her father. http://www.pakufije.com/2015/05/30/intervistavajza-e-spiro-kolekes-ne-10-vitet-e-fundit-te-jetes-se-enverit-komanduan-ramizi-dhe-nexhmija/
And this for his role in 1912.https://books.google.com/books?id=SyqxwWsygjAC&pg=PA141&dq=spiro+koleka+jorgo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMI2uv5iP7qxgIVg9UeCh2vZwH2#v=onepage&q=spiro%20koleka%20jorgo&f=false
Elsie got it wrong. It is not the first time. I.e. he states that Josif Bageri was Catholic while he was Orthodox. This because he doesn't focus much on ethnicity, origin, etc, rather focuses on what the person did. He is still a great expert, he just doesn't pay much attention because it is not important to him.
Zoupan, you got it wrong this time. Let's remove those "Northern Epirotes" tags which wrongfully point to a Greek identity.Mondiad (talk) 00:45, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mondiad: what does the interview say? That is his father, Spiro Jorgo Koleka, obviously you have not understood the article nor talk pages. If there is no refutation I don't see any of the references being removed. I would not remove "Northern Epirotes" as its describes his ethnic origin according to references.--Zoupan 08:20, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The article indicates that Koleka family is not Greek as strangely is pretended. You can get a fairly good translation via Google translate tool. The article does not refer anywhere to the other Spiro Koleka who allegedly is his father. Spiro J. Koleka, or Spiro Jorgo (Koleka) as mentioned in some sources, means Spiro, son of Jorgo (Gogo) from Koleka clan. Spiro Thoma Koleka means Spiro, son of Thoma, from Koleka clan. Thoma is not a not a middle name. I don't know why Elsie got so confused with these two, neither I care much, but they are not father-son. Of course they are related as the last name indicates it.Mondiad (talk) 11:49, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Indicates how exactly? "Pretended"? We still need a reliable source that refutes that they were father and son – commenting that they weren't doesn't help.--Zoupan 12:37, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I got you a reliable source, but this discussion is getting ridiculous to "convince" someone who already knows the truth very well by now. Here is the wedding certificate (http://i.imgur.com/xXHKx6o.jpg?1) of Spiro Thoma Koleka & his wife that proves their NAMES, FATHER & mother names, nationality & citizenship. This document is OFFICIAL from the state, issued in the year 2001 and it seals all speculation from your side @Zoupan:. Also, the fact that I am presenting you these personal, family documents should be enough to remove any doubt from your mind that I am part of his close family and know him very well. Now, as you can see/read from the marriage certificate, Spiro Thoma Koleka is the son of Thoma, thus no close relationship with Spiro Jorgo Koleka. This SIMPLE FACT shows the inaccuracy of your sources also with regards to his ethnic background. If you got 50% of his DNA wrong, so you cannot claim to really know the guy's lineage. Perhaps these "great historians" that you refer to think that one gets his ethnic background from his wife (since Spiro's wife was of Greek nationality, born in Corfu, see document), but that is not the case. Each one his own. So, please remove your inaccurate information from this article right away and do something more productive. You could edit e topic that you really have knowledge in, for instance. --Burridheut 14:51, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the certificate, if it is you who took the photo please upload it at commons.wikimedia.org. As the certificate refutes Elsie's stating that Spiro Koleka was the son of Spiro Jorgo Koleka, I have removed (only) Elsie from the article, and ommitted the previous sentence regarding Spiro Jorgo Koleka. The other references which explicitly state him as being part of the Greek community do not mention Jorgo, and are thus not affected by this. Do you have any information on how close the two were relatives? The fact that he married a Greek only points that he belonged to the Albanian Greek community. I am disregarding the rest of your comment. --Zoupan 23:16, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The photo is not for open public use as it is a personal document of the family and we do not intend to make it part of wikipedia. Contrary to what you believe, being married to a person that is 50% greek and born in Corfu does not make you part of a greek community, obviously. You use some weird kind of logic which I do not recognize as logic as all. However I want to help you and therefore am guiding you through the facts. If you see the certificate carefully there is no evidence in it that Spiro is greek, on the contrary he is Albanian as stated clearly in the paper. His wife on the other hand being the daughter of Jani Aroni (Greek citizen, see surname in maiden name in right corner below) has on the certificate that she is greek. So the certificate is very clear on who is greek and who is not. Remember that these are the years before the borders were closed and people were marrying more freely than the years that came after. Also, you must understand that of all places that were greek speaking, Corfu had the closest relationship with Himara and some villages such as Dhermi. In times of war, Corfu was a safe heaven for the women and children to escape while the men were fighting the next invader. Also the largest volume of trade was being conducted with Corfu for many many years, these people were really close, not blood related however. But today, pseudo-historians do not look at the historic evidence, they instead classify people at the most convenient way for their agenda, or just take shortcuts because for them these things don't matter. How can they classify as greeks people that speak greek? The whole world speaks english today, including us here, but does that make us british or american? There is a huge lie spread over many years on the greek presence in Albania. The latest population census tore that lie apart. Albanians speak and have always spoken Greek, Italian, Turkish, French, Latin, Old Greek, etc. besides the native Albanian tongue. That does not make them less Albanian in favor of the nationalities that these languages represent. If you live in a small economy, you need to trade with your neighbors in order to survive. We are not Germany, or France, or the US who are so big and so powerful that their citizens don't have a real need to learn foreign languages. This is a discussion that will take many years to settle, and I do not claim to have all the facts here, neither do I have the time or will to discuss this, but for Spiro Koleka I am extremely well informed and know his family lineage (and mine) from 1560. Yes, you read the year correctly. Burridheut (talk) 07:53, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Basically, you are calling the Greeks in Albania a lie. 1560? Who was your ancestor? Your comments gets more interesting for each day.--Zoupan 09:27, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not calling the greeks in Albania a lie, but their number is very low. It is artificially inflated by some pseudo-historians such as the ones you refer to regarding Spiro Koleka. He as an individual was so against the greeks and their chauvinist agenda that it is utterly ridiculous that such man is labeled as one of them. Also many modern day greeks (especially in these lands) are in fact Arvanitians, but that is another discussion, I will not let you drag me into that one. Since you ask, our first ancestor in our family tree is called Nike Gjinaj, there is a historic record of him in 1560. I have the full family tree of course, all based on official/historic records, but that not for public use. It will be published in a book at some point, you can read it then, if you will still be interested. For now, the best service you can do to the wikipedia community, to Spiro Koleka and to your own credibility is to revert your edits, removing vorioepirote / greek texts and labels. You might not like it, but that is the fair thing to do, facing all the evidences presented to you by me so far. If the truth is what you are looking for, you have found it, but I think it is another agenda that you have. Burridheut (talk) 10:47, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not going to revert myself. You chose to not capitalize Greek and Greeks (but did to Albania and Arvanitians) in the above comment. --Zoupan 16:16, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh no! This sounds like a UN human rights violation! Shall we call for an extraordinary meeting of the Security Council Mr. Secretary of grammar? Stick to the discussion and quit playing smart please. Burridheut (talk) 18:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Manipulation of sourced content

It appears that we have large scale wp:own, especially in the case of Himara, which is traditionally seen as a predominantly Greek town. [[1]]. Burridheut needs to explain why a mountain of reference in the correspondent article is useless according to him.Alexikoua (talk) 19:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

The claims that Himara is Greek, or Ethnic Greek, or Predominantly Greek, or Inherently Greek...or you name it, are part of an effort from the Greek state to create a so called Vorioepirote (Northern Epirote) region and claim for a referendum of autonomy (or independence perhaps) from Albania so that it latter joins Greece. That is a long term plan that has been advancing steadily, but has never succeeded. In 1912 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himara_revolt_of_1912) a small group of men, few days before Albania declares independence from the Ottoman Empire, hurry up and raise the Greek flag and a new vorioepirote flag (the latter one has both Greek flag elements (colors, pattern) and Albanian flag elements (double headed eagle)). They tried to create a new identity, Northern Epirus, part of Greece. They were unsuccessful though, as they did not get support from the population and Himara was joined to the rest of Albania, not Greece, or autonomous/independent. However, the struggle of these men and the state who financed them carries on. The propaganda continues, the separatist movement is alive. The census of 2011 clarifies the population composition though, only 24.56% declare themselves as Greek. Here included the ones that are 1/2, 1/4 and 1/8 Greek in lineage. So, there is no Predominant Greek presence in Himara, predominant means 50% of the city + at least one more person. That is not the case, no matter what the greek state funded historians say, it is not more than 24.56%. Burridheut (talk) 20:21, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

It appears you are in a large scale ethnic campaign here, since Pettifer&Vickers (Greek state funded historians? off course you are kidding) are clearly pro-Albanian authors, thus your claim can be easily dismissed. Moreover, you intentionally ignore the fact that this census was largely boycotted and the results do not reflect any real demographic values.Alexikoua (talk) 02:54, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Please comment at the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents thread.--Zoupan 05:40, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Burridheut (talk · contribs) is a historian, ethnologist and demographer, and not to forget, a conspiracy theorist. We should believe everything he says, not. He claims that the 2011 census is the "truth", however, it is regarded by the Council of Europe as unreliable and inaccurate. No surprise. --Zoupan 06:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Please put credible sources to your claims. Otherwise they constitute gossip. Disputed? Council of Europe? No surprise? You are too funny!

Zoupan (talk · contribs) I am not on an ethnic campaign here (first difference between us two) and just to remind you, I was answering to a question made by Alexikoua (talk · contribs) to the best of my personal knowledge. Be polite and keep your insults to yourself. Keep in mind that this discussion is about Spiro Koleka. You are dragging it into an ethnic, historic, folkloric discussion. No matter how amusing this is to you, the discussion still remains about Spiro Koleka. The census is official and your sources are inaccurate. Professor Pettifer may not be a Greek-founded historian, but the original source of information he is based upon with regards to Spiro Koleka's lineage for sure is. I sent him a letter yesterday to review his sources and I am hoping he will rectify this inaccuracy very soon. I want to remind you that my accuracy regarding Spiro Koleka's personal and family information has been so far 100% and fully documented by official records. Yours has been 0% and with little potential for improvement. Burridheut (talk) 11:25, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Elsie's bibliographical dictionary does state he was born in Vuno. Vuno is identified as a Orthodox Albanian speaking village within the wider Himara area (Nitsiakos, Vassilis (2010). On the border: Transborder mobility, ethnic groups and boundaries along the Albanian-Greek frontier. LIT Verlag. p. 99. "According to the latest census in the area, the Greek-speaking population is larger but not necessarily continuous and concentrated. The exclusively Greek-speaking villages, apart from Himarë, are Queparo Siperme, Dhërmi and Palasë. The rest are inhabited by Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians (Kallivretakis 1995:25-58); Kallivretakis, Leonidas (1995). "Η ελληνική κοινότητα της Αλβανίας υπό το πρίσμα της ιστορικής γεωγραφίας και δημογραφίας [The Greek Community of Albania in terms of historical geography and demography." In Nikolakopoulos, Ilias, Kouloubis Theodoros A. & Thanos M. Veremis (eds). Ο Ελληνισμός της Αλβανίας [The Greeks of Albania]. University of Athens. p. 53.) Regarding Orthodox Albanian speaking people in general though as they have been “between identities” of either choosing the Albanian linguistic one over one that gives them religious commonalty with the Greeks (and thus a common ethnic identity according to some) over the past 150 years, Koleka’s identification as “Greek” by Petiffer may(and I stress this word may) suffice. This matter is also interesting considering that Koleka is the uncle of Edi Rama. Spiro’s sister is Edi’s mum. Dare I say it, I wonder would we say that Edi Rama is a “Greek” too? Things to think about.Resnjari (talk) 18:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Resnjari, I need to reply to this. Speaking Greek does not make you Greek, just as speaking English does not make us British or American. Tomorrow perhaps our grandchildren will speak Mandarin, so it does not really tell much about someones lineage. Also when you mention Christian Orthodoxy it is important to emphasize that these is Albanian Orthodoxy and Greek Orthodoxy.They are not one and this is a very important distinction, although it might seem minor at fist sight. As you probably know, Albanians are not very religious people, so religion is not a good criteria to divide them in groups. There are exceptions to this though, but it is common to find Albanians of different religions and regions that have mixed with one another. Remember that Ali Pasha's wife Vasiliqi was Christian whereas he was muslim himself. Similar examples you will find everywhere and they are a sign of a modern society (signs of open-mindedness, tolerance, mobility). Coming back to the subject person. Spiro Thoma Koleka was not Greek, neither part of a minority. it will be impossible for anyone to prove Spiros Greek lineage because it is just a myth. For your info, it is very difficult to find an ethnic Greek (note the word Greek, I am not saying Greek speaking) in the village of Vuno. There are many in Dhermi and in some neighborhoods of the other villages, but in Vuno there are more polar bears than ethnic Greeks! Until recently many Albanians have taken the Greek passport because it was very convenient to be a member of the EU if you are Albanian. You got to travel freely, work in the EU area, get state assistance in case of unemployment, healthcare covered etc. So, for a poor Albanian working all day for 300€ a month, it was not a bad thing to have an additional passport. Also many older people have gotten a Greek passport and get a free pension that is higher than the average salary in Albania (no wonder how the Greek state has a black hole of 300 Billion Euros, they have been giving away free money all over the place). Anyway, getting the passport does not make you ethnic Greek, it just makes you ALSO a Greek CITIZEN, besides Albanian. Dual citizenship in Albania is allowed, so who am I to say that it is bad. The law is clear, the state does not care, the economy is bad, so people survive with what they can.
Last but not least. Edi Rama's mother is Aneta, but she is not Spiro's sister. Spiro's sister died in 1941 during the Greco-Italian war, so yes, she died 74 years ago at the age of 45. She would have been 119 years old if she was alive today so she is far from being even the same generation as Aneta. The whole point with Zoupan's persistence of Spiro's "greekness" is to invent a Greek lineage of the current prime minister of Albania. This is his agenda, it is not hidden as he has written about it himself. But the truth is that there is no such lineage whatsoever. We could talk more about the prime minister, his mother etc., but I am afraid that this is beyond the topic at hand, i.e. Spiro Koleka. Burridheut (talk) 20:55, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. I rushed when i wrote my comment. Spiro Koleka is Edi's grandfather. [2] . I understand what you have said, yet for the past 150 years sizable parts of the Orthodox Albanian community are the main ones who are constantly undergoing these "identity issues". Yes some have done so for money, but others have also adopted Greek ideas of identity and also very negative views of (Muslim) Albanians and their Albanian identity in general that Greek society holds. Also I pointed out with peer reviewed material that Vuno is considered by Greek researchers as being populated by Albanians at least in the 1990s (Kallivretakis) and Nitsiakos (2010) and you can use that to make the case here.Resnjari (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

What about a century ago (Koleka was born in 1908), did Vuno have a Greek identity? Greek guerrilla bands were active in the village (Kaphetzopoulos; Flokas; Dima-Dimitriou (2000). The struggle for Northern Epirus. Hellenic Army General Staff. The band of Guerrilla Leader Georgios Tsolakes (55 men), to the bands in Vouno). Nitsiakos states that today Vuno ("carefully") identifies as Northern Epirote. As Himara was out of the minority zone it was strongly Albanianized, which should also be taken into consideration. Edi Rama can't and shouldn't be regarded or identified as Greek.--Zoupan 20:20, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Resnjari (talk · contribs), sorry but you got it wrong again. Please do not use online gossip-newspapers a sources, as they are even more inaccurate. In addition, if you have a look at the article you refer to, you will see in the top of it a writing in bold that says "Spekullim" meaning "Speculation" in Albanian. But seriously, refrain from using these references, they are not historic, but purely speculative. Edi Rama is not the grandson of Spiro. Regarding the peer reviewed material, thanks for the source. Burridheut (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Its why i used that in the talk page, not the article. A sizable number of Albanian outlets have made that claim though.Resnjari (talk)

Nitsiakos also states that Orthodox Albanians in general where confused about their identity, the later stages of the nineteenth century (Nitsiakos. On the border. 2010. p. 153. “The influence of Hellenism on the Albanian Orthodox was such that, when the Albanian national idea developed, in the three last decades of the 19th century, they were greatly confused regarding their national identity.)”. As in your comment that Nitsiakos states that some people identify as Northern Epirote is problematic, especially regarding Vuno. He also has stated that some Muslims also identify with that tag. In the book On the border he has made the reference that when Orthodox Albanians said some of that "Northern Epriote" stuff to him, they where playing around with it and being ambivalent (p.315. Those who live in Greece describe themselves as Greeks from Northern Epirus, while those who stayed in Albania are integrated into the Albanian Christian Orthodox population; after 1990 the “play” with the ambivalence of the term “Northern Epirote”; in Greece to be “Northern Epirote” means to be Greek.) Be aware of that too in current day contexts. I also have the book. There has been no wide ranging study about the changes that have occurred in southern Albania due to migration to Greece, the church run by a Greek hierarchy and so on. Kallivretakis is the last peer reviewed study of that kind and it was done in the 1990s. As for Greek sources mentioning Vuno supporting Greek bands. True. Muslim Albanian ones supported Ottoman ones. So. Did people in Vuno solely do so because they felt "ethnically" Greek or because they felt a kinship due to shared Orthodoxy? A similar question could be asked of Muslim Albanians of the time. Also, parts of the Himara area was Albanianised as much as it was Hellenised. Greek schools operated in Orthodox Albanian villages in the latter part of the 19th century. Greek identity as understood today amongst them was not present prior to these events of the late nineteenth century. Being identified as Greek just meant Orthodox in past times. In the age of nationalisms, it acquired new national affiliation overtones. The only Greek speaking villages in the area were and are Dhermi, Himara, Palasa and one of the Qeparo's. Edi Rama is also a descendant of Spiro. Resnjari (talk) 23:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Vuno never had a Greek identity. It had some grecophiles back then, and it still has, although small in number. All of them are Albanian though. You must understand that the largest part of the population in Vuno has lived in survival conditions for many many years. Perhaps you don't know this, but the village has suffered the lack of drinking water and also the food was scarce. The number of men migrating away from Vuno towards Greece, Italy or elsewhere was very high. The village was not big enough to have a sustainable and thriving economy, without its immigrants it was unable to survive. I don't think that anyone living in Greece would have wanted to migrate to Vuno. To put it nicely, it would not have been an upgrade of their living conditions. Burridheut (talk) 21:18, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, Edi Rama is not a descendant of Spiro. They are part of the same family tree though. Burridheut (talk) 10:03, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Do you have some kind of biography or something in Albanian that could be used as a source/s for Spiro Koleka. Vickers and Pettifer are at times "loose with the facts" when it comes to many issues (not just this one). So are some of the other authors who state that Sprio was born in Himara town. They have conflated the region which at times is called Himara with the town, which makes those sources also have credibility issues. Now you got me curious though Burridheut, how is Edi related to Spiro (a great nephew, cousin etc)?Resnjari (talk) 11:36, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a biography at this moment about Spiro. It will be published sometime though. The publication will include our family tree from 1560, there you will see also where Edi Rama and other important figures of the past fit. For now I would like not to spoil that publication, I hope you understand. Spiro Koleka was a man too important not to be written about, but also to be written inaccurately about. That is why I insist in correcting this article and will do so until it is accurate for the public. The inaccuracies about Himara and Vuno are appalling as well. As you point out, Himara is not just a city but a whole Region including the villages around it. There are strong interests to call Himara Greek. The Greek state has thrown countless millions of euros to "buy" the history of Himara by giving pensions, passports, benefits but also by political intimidation towards the weak Albanian state (Greece is part of the EU, as we know). In some villages of Himara the presence of grecophiles has increased over the years, many people have acquired Greek names and passports, however their family roots are very easy to uncover and the absolute majority is Albanian. As a proof that Spiro was not greek, please refer to his Gravestone picture (http://i.imgur.com/pAJ5FLt.jpg). His name is not written in Greek (Σπύρος) form and alphabet, but in Albanian. So his fathers name, written as Thoma and not Θωμάς. So the surname. All Albanian. If you want to see a Greek gravestone and with what letters it is written then see here (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KBnct994Yxk/UCjG1DmELvI/AAAAAAAAIRQ/h5E9XQj-gUc/s1600/391472_410321965692444_693399495_n.jpg). The difference is really easy to spot. Burridheut (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
The fact that his name is written in Albanian on his gravestone does not refute a Greek background, after all, he was Hoxha's minister (a communist).--Zoupan 12:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Is "Greek background" your latest version now? You have written in the article that he was born in a "Greek FAMILY"! Do you even know the difference between your two claims? Or it just does not matter for you since the whole thing is made up? Why would (a so called Greek) communist have his name on his gravestone written in Albanian if he were a Greek? Communism is not an ethnicity! Do you really think that if he was democrat his name would have been written in Greek letters? LOL! What kind of twisted logic is that? He died in 2001, long time after communism and is buried in the graveyard of the Vuno village by his family. Go there and see the graves of the other people buried in the last two centuries, then come and tell us how many Greeks have lived in that village that you know nothing about. Burridheut (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Zoupan, in this exmaple as some sources state Koleka was born in the town of Himara, which is not the case, calls into doubt those sources as well about him being Greek. The important question here is did Koleka identify himself as a Greek? Is there any evidence that he himself identified with the Greek minority ? I ask this because Greek editors have often put this question to Albanian editors regarding some figures who have some connection with Albanian identity, culture language etc but have identified as Greek and called themselves as such. Is there a credible source that states Koleka identified as a Greek (considering that his birthplace Vuno is inhabited by Orthodox Albanians or Orthodox Albanian speakers) ? Resnjari (talk) 18:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Note that the references were published during his lifetime. The doubting is implausible - Vuno is directly connected to Himara, being the nearest village. I don't think that the "important question" is his identity – him having belonged to the Greek community does not refute his Albanianess (Albanian nationality, service to Albanian state, etc.), which Burridheut seems to misunderstand, and you are now hinting at. As said previously, he was born in 1908; if this village did not espouse a Greek identity at that time should be easier for you to find out. The Greek school (1909), Greek rebel bands, and Greek toponym (vouno, "mountain") are evidence of Greek presence, thus I deem your continued insistence of having this fact removed as baseless. 1908 is not today. Vuno, being outside the Minority Zone, was without a doubt Albanianized since incorporation in Albania. Overall, there are few sources mentioning Koleka. I thought you were far more reasonable than other Albania-editing users. Hypothetically, an "Albanian identity" while still being of "Greek identity" origin would not determine that the latter be omitted from a biography.--Zoupan 19:59, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
For one toponyms are not indicative of a village's ethnicity. Greece has many villages that have a Slavic etymology. Are they Slavic on that account? Of course Vuno is directly connected to Himara, but it is a settlement in its own right. The matter is the authors have not distinguished Himara town from Himara region. They specifically say that Koleka was from Himara town. That already calls into question the sources credibility at the very least. As for Greek bands operating in Orthodox Albanian speaking regions, it happened all over the place. How is that indicative that the village being "Greek". In Macedonia, there were many cases where Greek bands went into Slavic villages coercing them to side with Greek cause (see: Anastasia Karakasidou: 'Fields of wheat, hills of Blood' book). How is one Greek in that case? During that era, as Nitsiakos clearly states, Orthodox Albanians were confused in the latter part of the 19th century regarding their identity, due in part to the emergence of the national Albanian movement. Interpreting that they are Greek, one must be very cautious about it, as Greek apart from ethnic connotations also meant just "Orthodox". It would be important in this case to have a source where Koleka himself identified as Greek to prove the issue beyond doubt. Otherwise in the article it should state that "according to some sources it states that Koleka was of Greek heritage", considering that they have mixed up Himara region with town, getting Koleka's birthplace wrong. One in this case can ask what else have they got wrong? Resnjari (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
You can speculate as much as you want but you will make neither Spiro nor Vuno & Himara more Greek by repeating yourself indefinitely. There is no evidence about Spiro's Greek-community belonging. All you have is Pettifer that says Spiro was ethnic Greek. Where did Pettifer get the facts about Spiro? Only God knows. I invite you to check the website of the Vuno village and see for yourself http://vunovillage.com/vunoi
There is some interesting quote by Edward Lear there: I was very surprised by the buildings in Vuno, such as the Kasneci one. They give you the feeling of Venetian “Palazzi”, as well as other constructions around rural area in Italy. The people of Himara use the Italian language more than anyone in Albania. In every village of this region I went, I noticed that despite the fact that they are Greek orthodox by religion, they are all Albanians, with some small exceptions.
Also, Zoupan, better not mention the Greek school of Vuno from 1909 as it is too recent, the school building itself in Vuno (still standing) is more than 200 years old! There are historic records of Albanian schools in Himara since 1627, in Vuno and Palasa since 1632 and Dhërmi since 1660. A bit weird that your greek school opened 280 years later, since you claim Himara to be PREDOMINANTLY Greek. As I said since this discussion started, this is purely separatist Greek propaganda. Burridheut (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
Until Burridheut conveices Vickers & Petiffer that they are wrong and the latter publish their apology that Koleka isn't of Greek origin as they claim, the current version stays in this article. In general everything else is clear manipulation of sourced content. Burridheut should repsect wp:rs instead of promoting conspiracy theories of supposed Greek-funded institutions that insist to falsify history.Alexikoua (talk) 07:13, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
And who exactly do you think you are to decide what stays and what goes??? If an information is inaccurate it cannot stay. Spiro was not born in a Greek family , there is no shred of evidence supporting this. Not a single historic document. I sent an email to Prof. Petiffer to check his sources, but I have no authority over that man. Maybe he rectifies it, maybe he issues a note, but maybe he never publishes anything else mentioning Spiro Koleka! So what does that mean? Does that make Spiro Greek? Don't be ridiculous! Btw. you seem to have a lot of problems here on wikipedia with several users complaining about your propaganda edits. Can't you just report facts and leave fiction out of here? Burridheut (talk) 14:04, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
If someone has a background of X ethnicity this doesn't mean he is an X national/citizen, see for example Prs. Obama. I'm afraid that by not convincing the author this can't be removed. However, if you can find wp:rs which claims something different we can add that "he is of Greek family background according to Pettifer and of another background by another author."Alexikoua (talk) 14:38, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Obama is not the same story I am afraid. Obama has a parent that is African and you can trace him. Spiro has no one you can trace in Greece. Look at the surname, it is not Greek. If you can prove that he is even 25% of Greek origin I will withdraw. But if you cannot, then this inaccuracy is removed. In addition I would like you all to remember one simple fact. I posted Spiros marriage certificate here! I AM FAMILY! How do you think I got his certificate? Do you think I broke into his house and stole it just to win an argument over the internet against anonymous people??? Why don't you use logic? If I challenge your sources then you have to look into them. The information inside the sources about Spiro is not referenced!!! It is neither scientific or based on historical records. How can you insist so much in it just because Petiffer says so? This is a disgrace to humanity and I appeal to your conscience and do the right thing. I challenge your sources! Burridheut (talk) 15:26, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that Koleka was Greek.However,there is a reference so we have to respect that.As Alexikoua said,If someone has a background of X ethnicity this doesn't mean he is an X national/citizen,see for example Arvanites.They have Greek citizenship now,but they are Albanians by ancestry. In one of her books,Iliriana Koleka (his daughter) says that their family originates from Vuno.In fact,while speaking for their origin,she doesn't mention any Greece.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:23, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Due to the Orthodox Albanians and their identity fluidity or issues with identity in general, Koleka is complicated. Alexikoua's is right about adding multiple views regarding Koleka's identity would suffice. Rolandi, do you have Iliriana's book and page number as to where she talks about their family origins. Her bit would more than count into going into the article.Resnjari (talk) 21:49, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE!: Alexikoua (talk · contribs), Resnjari (talk · contribs), Endribinaj (talk · contribs), Rolandi+ (talk · contribs), Zoupan (talk · contribs). I found an article about Spiro Koleka written right after his death about his life. The article is written in the newspaper "Zëri i së Vertetës", issue of September 2001 (http://imgur.com/vYUkz1d). The article is signed by 9 people, members of the Communist Party of Albania. In the article it is written among other things: 1. Spiro Koleka was born in Vuno. 2. Born in a family of highly patriotic history (Greece loses Spiro here, he remains an Albanian Patriot after all.) Burridheut (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

I wonder what makes wp:rs a newspaper-organ of a political party, such as this one. Actually such evidence is the definition of non-rs, which can't refute secondary reliable material.Alexikoua (talk) 15:59, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Very well, I see you are able to make a distinction among the reliability of sources. But here is another publication, this one is the Encyclopedic Dictionary of Albania, see bottom right of page: http://imgur.com/f7kLRxs Burridheut (talk) 16:08, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Burridheut (talk · contribs), do you have access to books and so on about Vuno that where written in a post communist period (1992 onwards) (During communism sources are an issue due to the communist state having overarching influence in some of the literary material produced during that time. That would be the best and most authoritative source regarding the matter in placing an alternate view regarding Koleka's ethnicity. No one would be able to challenge that going into the article. Find the page in those books about Koleka being Albanian. Then write that out here, the page and the few sentences that deal with that and then we can put into the article. Makes things easier for everyone.Resnjari (talk) 23:12, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Resnjari (talk · contribs) there are not many books written about Spiro Koleka in post-communism time. I have one more article though, published after his death in 2001. The article is written by Anastas Kondo, also from Vuno, a very close friend and colleague of Spiro koleka. Read here: http://imgur.com/mAN9iW1 and here: http://imgur.com/gz1Srfm . Please remember that Spiro was not an important figure during post-communist time and he was in his 80s and 90s, so not an active politician anymore. However, you need to know that Spiro Was alive in 1985 when the Encyclopedia was published and has not protested for any inaccuracy.
I will need to explain here that although I am providing articles and links, I do not have to prove what this man WAS NOT something. The ones who claim that they know what he was have to show the proof. As a thinking experiment, just to make my point clear: can you prove that any X adult person is not a criminal? Impossible! You can never prove that! However, the burden of proof is on anyone saying that he IS, so they need to prove that Mr/Mrs. X is indeed such a person, before he is labeled something. This is how every modern justice system works. You have to prove WHAT IS, NOT WAS ISN'T! Anyone claiming that Spiro was Greek has to find a proof. And this is especially important for historians. Otherwise this is just malicious propaganda or pure speculation. Burridheut (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
It appears I was not precise enough. If you present an wp:rs, as you have done with a tertiary encyclopedia above, this isn't a reason to remove the already existent reference. All alternative theories can be part of this article: in this case, Pettifer&Vickers claim a Greek origin, while the Encyclopedia X claims he is of Albanian patriotic background (X claims Y & Z claim W).Alexikoua (talk) 20:09, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Guess it needs more serious arguments than this one [[3]]. I hope this doesn't mean that Vickers should be entirely removed as an wp:rs from wikipedia. Alexikoua (talk) 20:12, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
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