Talk:The Troubles in Ulster (1920–1922)

Article

I have given this article a more appropriate title that reflects the more common terminology used to refer to this period. The use of "Pogrom" in the title is highly WP:POV and as the article makes clear is highly debated and a one-sided definition. I also added a NPOV tag as the article is lacking in neutrality.

Whilst I appreciate the time spent on this article and the effort to try to portray a more complete picture, it is clear that it is slanted one way (purposely or not) and leaves out quite notable information (purposely or not) that contributed to the Troubles of the time. For example: The death of Michael Collins on 22 August 1922 dealt a severe blow to the northern IRA. Collins had taken an active interest in reversing the Partition of Ireland and with his death, many northern IRA men felt that their cause was unwinnable. IRA Belfast Brigade leader Roger McCorley stated, "When Collins was killed the northern element (of the IRA) gave up all hope." - that is all that is mentioned about Collins' and his role in it all. No mention whatsoever of the highly important and vital information that he supplied weapons and arms to the northern anti-Treaty IRA so that they could carry out an anti-Partition war campaign, which exacerbated the whole situation. Rather he is relegated to just having an "interest". There is also no mention of the inflamatory Basil Brooke, who was one of the main anti-insurgency commanders during the period, who would become a future PM of NI. Some of the sources are also debatably biased (Lawlor and certain Irish newspapers especially) and as I've recently altered one instance, not referencing some of wording that should be sourced. Also missing is the blatant and inflammatory actions of Irish nationalist politicians within Northern Ireland in their refusal to accept or participate in the newly founded state, which later resulted in future problems such as gerrymandering.

As such I will help fill out and edit this article in due course to provide a more complete and balanced article. Mabuska ^(talk) 17:31, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Second sentence in the opening paragraph needs to be fixed. Palisades1 (talk) 02:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Please elaborate? Also please indent your responses by using : and multiples thereof depending on where your response is at. Mabuska ^(talk) 11:41, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Name of Article

The term "The Troubles" is recognized in Ireland and probably parts of the UK but might not be the useful to the readers who are not familiar with the term. Renaming the article to narrow down the location of the troubles will help readers in their searches. I suggest naming this article "The Troubles in Belfast (1920-22)". I also question the rationale for the template message: "The neutrality of this article is disputed" and recommend its removal. Palisades1 (talk) 16:28, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Rename Article

Again, the title of this article is vague and not helpful to people who are not familiar with the term. I suggest renaming it to "The Troubles in Ulster, Ireland (1920-1922)". The article was originally covering one part of the troubles (Shipyard Clearances) but now has grown to be much more. A paragraph on the violence in the other counties of Ulster would help complete the article. Palisades1 (talk) 15:25, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Rename Article & Neutrality of the Article

The current name The Troubles (1920–1922) is limiting readers to those that are familiar with the term The Troubles. It might also be confusing to readers interested in the Troubles in Southern Ireland during this time period. My suggestion of renaming the article to The Troubles in Belfast (1920-22) is not accurate since the article deals with many locations outside of Belfast. So I think the proper name for the Article is: The Troubles in Northern Ireland (1920-22). Also, any issues with neutrality seem to have been corrected so I suggest removing that banner. I suggest that the banner linking the German article should be removed since it contains the same information with very few sources. Palisades1 (talk) 17:21, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Moved article

New name better reflects the location. Removed banners on neutrality as they have been addressed. Removed banner on German article - see above.Palisades1 (talk) 17:46, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Content

In Background - "Ireland was not the only place in Europe where violence erupted in the aftermath of World War I, which appeared to accustomise people to the use of violence as a means to an end.[19] Other European conflicts around the same time included the Spartacist uprising, Polish uprising, Silesian Uprisings, the crushing of the Bavarian Soviet Republic, the Hungarian Red Terror followed by the White Terror, the Hungarian–Romanian War, and the Greco-Turkish War amongst others." Instead, it might be more appropriate to have a short history of the War of Independence.Palisades1 (talk) 14:38, 5 October 2022 (UTC) Or link to Revolutions of 1917–1923.Palisades1 (talk) 22:19, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

            Background info on other conflicts replaced with link to subject. Unsourced info on motivations removed.Palisades1 (talk) 17:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Introductory Lead Section

In looking at Manual of Style (Section organization) it states "An article's content should begin with an introductory lead section – a concise summary of the article...". Looking at this articles introduction it does not seem to be a concise summary of the article. This intro is comprised of seven paragraphs (one paragraph has seven sentences in it). At least one sentence is repeated word for word in the body of the article. With the current length of this introductory section the casual reader might be discouraged from reading the article beyond the introduction. I suggest trimming the introductory section to adhere to the MOS guidelines.Palisades1 (talk) 20:07, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

IP User 2A02:C7E:2C9C:E100:B975:DBE6:18D9:9E Revision 24 Feb 2023

The revision summary is incomplete. It states: (There is no evidence to support the claim that these men were all). The edit concerned the aftermath of the Lisburn burnings. The information comes from a recent and well respected 720 page book: The Dead of the Irish Revolution. One reviewer of the book stated: “A monumental new book [and] an incredible piece of research. . . . Formidable, authoritative and handsomely produced, The Dead of the Irish Revolution is a fitting memorial.”—Andrew Lynch, Irish Independent. Please explain what your revision is for and what objections you have to the information from the book. Thanks, Palisades1 (talk) 15:13, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The Dead of the Irish Revolution, Eunan O'Halpin, Daithi O'Corrain at 720 pages is indeed a large piece of work and as such is bound to include some inaccuracies. This is not intended as a criticism of the book in general but rather a correction of 3-4 lines of text that reflect on the good names of individuals and have upset their families of the victims.

Eunan O'Halpin and Daithi O'Corrain reference two books in their notes to support their text. They are Belfast's Unholy War: The Troubles of the 1920's. By Alan F. Parkinson and Facts and Figures of the Belfast Pogrom 1920-1922, By Fr John Hassan, both well reviewed books. Neither of these books support the allegations that the victims were shot by the military while attacking Protestant homes. Parkinson states that at least one of the victims, J Murray, was shot before the military arrived. This was also stated at the Inquest. In his book, Antrim, The Irish Revolution, 1912-23, page 74, Brian Feeney states; 'On Saturday night, 28 August, loyalists launched a ferocious attack on the Marrowbone, a small impoverished Catholic District of fewer than 1000 people adjacent to Ardoyne in north Belfast. The'Bone' was surrounded by unionist districts. The attack seems to have been premeditated, well planned, and not just the usual headlong rush of a mob fortified with alcohol. Snipers positioned on a roof top, who had obviously military experience and good rifles, killed four Catholic men, two of whom were standing at their front doors. Eventually troops arrived and the snipers made off.' It is obvious that the victims died while defending their own district.

The other book referenced by Eunan O'Halpin and Daithi O'Corrain,Facts and Figures of the Belfast Pogrom 1920-1922, By Fr John Hassan. This book makes no reference to the incident on the night of 28th August 1920. He does mention a second attack on the Catholic Church of Sacred Heart, Marrowbone, by a loyalist mob, using revolvers and stones when returning from a football match on the 16th of October. (Page 41) He also list the names of the victims. Ironically Fr Hassan in his book highlights the dishonesty of the local press and their 'confederates abroad.' (Page 25) 'They have been rightly described as ghouls. For supressing the truth, and for suggesting, and evenly boldly asserting, the false, they are probably without rival. (Page 25)

I suspect Eunan O'Halpin and Daithi O'Corrain got their information from one of these victim blaming newspapers.

I hope this adds clarity to my first post. I'm sure you will agree with me that the offending text of 2-3 lines should be removed in the interests of accuracy and truth.

Thanks,

Gus. 2A02:C7E:2C9C:E100:5C5F:794A:5951:F4C8 (talk) 11:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

    The quote from the Feeny book does provide a very complete account of the attacks on Aug 28. Do you know if its possible to access any Belfast newspapers from that date - 
    that would settle the question.? If not I agree with your earlier edit.  Palisades1 (talk) 20:18, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
             

Ive been able to find some more references to the trouble in Marrowbone at the end of August 1920 which no mention of six Catholics being killed in one instance. In Jim McDermotts Northern Divisions The Old IRA and the Belfast Pogroms 1920-22 he cites (pg 55) casualty reports of 17 people dead and 169 seriously wounded during that last week of August. He makes no mention of retaliation for the Lisburn burnings or a large scale killing of six people in one attack. Such a incident like that would have been mentioned in several of the other sources so I feel the article should just state the casualties and drop reference to any revenge attack.Palisades1 (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect title

I think this should be moved back to The Troubles (1920-1922). The current title is incredibly inaccurate. It covers a 3 year period but for almost half of that period the named Northern Ireland didn't exist. So it cannot be the Troubles in Northern Ireland from 1920 when it didn't come into existence until May 1921. Canterbury Tail talk 15:39, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

I've moved it back to where it was before the incorrect title move. Canterbury Tail talk 19:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Rename (again)

Please take a look at the comments above concerning the accuracy of the articles name: Name of Article (28 July), Rename Article (1 Sept) and Rename Article & Neutrality of the Article (7 Sept). There were no comments made on these entries. The term "The Troubles" isn't well known outside of Ireland. A date range and location in the title will help narrow a search. Also, much violence was also occurring in the south of Ireland at that time (Irish Civil War) which is also known as "The Troubles". So, in order to be more precise, I suggest that the article be renamed to The Troubles in Ulster (1920-1922).Palisades1 (talk) 15:49, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

That's partially what short descriptions are for. Having a different name just because someone may not know what the name is isn't a reason to rename something. It's like "oh what is that actor's name, he's in thingy". Anyway most people will arrive here from links from other articles, not by direct searching to this article. We don't name things just because someone may not know what it means, we name them concisely and accurately, the article will inform them what it means. And this article covers more than just Belfast, it also includes info on areas that eventually become the (Republic of) Ireland. And finally, the Irish Civil War isn't known as The Troubles, you'll need some sources for that. It's related to and in some ways a subset of The Troubles, but on its own isn't known as The Troubles so I don't see anything else that could be called The Troubles that would require further disambiguation. Canterbury Tail talk 16:13, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The issue in not the use of "The Troubles" its the lack of a specific location/area that describes where these troubles occurred. Dozens of pages relating to this topic follow the same naming format: one example - see Category:The Troubles in County Armagh. You will find multiple pages using the same naming format: i.e. The Troubles in Lurgan etc etc. So, adjusting the name of this page to follow the format used in dozens of pages relating to the troubles makes sense. All counties of Ulster are mentioned in this article to include the three that went into the Free State. In my opinion the proper name for this article is: The Troubles in Ulster (1920-1922).Palisades1 (talk) 21:17, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The core article on the entire subject is literally called The Troubles. What do you propose for this article? "The Troubles in Belfast, Donegal, Derry, Lisburn, a bit of Cork and some other areas (1920-1922)"? The article isn't restricted to Belfast but covers all the Troubles in that period under the classification and name. Hundreds of thousands of articles about historical things that happened don't included the location in the title, and they're often much much more obscure a topic than this. It's fine to have a location when there is a specific location that the article is about, but in this case that isn't true as it's over a large area. Canterbury Tail talk 23:03, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

See above: In my opinion the proper name for this article is: The Troubles in Ulster (1920-1922)Palisades1 (talk) 01:50, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Correct indentation. Well lets see what others have to say. Canterbury Tail talk 12:03, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Guidence from MOS on Deciding on an article title Wikipedia:Article titles: Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects. Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) as topic-specific naming conventions on article titles. (I made the effort to count the number of pages (82) that follow the long used "pattern of similar articles' titles" format i.e. The Troubles in Derry.) So, for precision and consistency I suggest the proper name for this page is: The Troubles in Ulster (1920-1922)Palisades1 (talk) 16:36, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The article deals with the Troubles in Ulster and is limited to the nine counties. The inclusion of the location of the troubles is as important as the time frame. In this case the Article name should not presume that the reader knows where the troubles were located. The Article has been moved to The Troubles in Ulster (1920-1922). Palisades1 (talk) 17:26, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Um don't move the article without consensus, there is no consensus here. The two of us disagree on this so we need third parties to come in and obtain consensus. Canterbury Tail talk 17:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)