Talk:Third Battle of Manzanillo

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Number of vessels engaged

As I see various changes are being made to the article, including to the number of vessels, I figured it might be best to discuss everthing here to make it clear. Throughout the battles at manzanilla in regards to the Spanish vessels there were a total of 7 armed vessels and 3 unarmed ships present. Centinela was a small gunboat that was sunk or beached at the first battle, but after the second battle was refloated and was restored to duty for the 3rd battle. Three other larger gunboats took part in all three battles, these were the Guantánamo, Estrella and Delgado Parejo. Then there were the three "pontoons", these were disabled vessels that were stranded in the harbor and used as floating batteries. These were auxiliary gunboat Guardian, armed with a single 4.7 mm gun. Her engines had broken down prior to the war, only four of her crew remained stationed on board to man her 4.7 mm gun as a floating battery. Next was the old wooden gunboat Cuba Espanola, she was deemed to be of little combat value and was delegated to operating as an immobile floating battery armed with a single muzzleloading 13cm parrot gun. Finally there was the old immobile wooden sailing vessel Maria, which was primarily used as a floating barracks and storeship but was also armed with 13cm parrot gun. All three of these "pontoons" participated in the first and second battles, but after the second battle the mobile Spanish gunboats had started to run low on ammunition. The Spanish commander thus had Guardian stripped of its ammunition, and it took little part in the third battle. There were also three 8 and 9cm field guns used as shore batteries and three understrength battalions of infantry.Shortly after the start of the third battle, the Spanish commander decided to run his vessels aground and have his men fight on land in the harbor alongside the infantry, pontoons, and field guns. Given all that, the infobox should read "4 gunboats, 3 pontoons, 3 transports, 3 field guns, 3 batallions of infantry."XavierGreen (talk) 01:01, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Interesting, what are your source for these claims? Do they also include casualties on the Spanish side? Two of my sources have the Spanish casualties as three killed and fourteen wounded, so that felt like the most accurate claim to put in the article, although Villafena differs from the other two sources with include a definite number of the Spanish casualties by claiming they suffered 200 killed and an unknown number wounded. Regards, Snagemit (talk) 17:12, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

There is a summary of various Spanish sources here [[1]]. After I drafted the first version of this article, @DagosNavy: helped sort out some of the details insofar as the Spanish side of things went. He likely has access to published sources which can provide further information. American sources also plainly state that there were three field guns used as shore batteries, and three battalions of infantry supporting the squadron. These infantry and field guns fired on the American vessels from positions onshore and the pontoons. The commander of Hornet, J.M. Helm, specifically states in his after action report being engaged by infantry and shore batteries during the engagement and the commander of Osceola stated that the shore batteries put up stiff resistance, while the Spanish gunboats did not. See here for the after action reports, [[2]].XavierGreen (talk) 21:58, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't read Spanish, so I'm just going to have to take your word for it. None of my sources mention any on-shore engagement, although they also mention very little about the battle at all- thats the issue with these "obscure battles". So, none of your sources (Spanish or American) mention anything about Spanish casualties? Snagemit (talk) 11:45, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Apart from this one, of course. [[3]] Snagemit (talk) 11:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

As I said above, the American after action reports specifically mention engaging both infantry and shore batteries, its not only spanish accounts that mention it. See here [[4]].XavierGreen (talk) 13:58, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, but I was talking more about Spanish casualties (killed and wounded). Anyway, it's probably no big deal, especially for a battle of this size since I have at least one source specifying casualties. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Snagemit (talk) 17:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)