Talk:Tupolev Tu-104/Archive 1

Archive 1

Third jet airliner

In the front article, it said that this Tu-104 aeroplane is the third jet civil airplane to fly. This an error, the Sud Aviation Caravelle has precedence by a month.

Sud Aviation Caravelle Maiden flight : 27 May 1955

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=372

Therefore, I will correct the entry on the front page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.61.255.84 (talk) 15:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You made a couple of mistakes: One, you didn't add the Caravelle in as the third one to fly in the sentence, so it was inaccurate. Second, the Caravelle entered service in 1958, while the Tu-104 entered service in 1956, yet you changed the Tu-104 from second to third. Please be careful when making changes to make sure that what you change is correct. - BillCJ (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Interflug didn´t use the Tu-104 the where working on their own design Baade-152. Rest of the facts I added comes from the red star book #35. RGDS Alexmcfire —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexmcfire (talk • contribs) 03:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the problematic sentences: "Although it was the fourth jet airliner to fly (following, in order, the British de Havilland Comet, Canadian Avro Canada C102 Jetliner, and French Sud Caravelle), the Tu-104 was the second to enter regular service (with Aeroflot) and the first to provide a sustained and successful service..."

Sorry, the Tu-104 was the SIXTH prototype jet airliner to fly, following the Nene-Viking, Comet, Jetliner, "dash-Eighty" and Caravelle. But the Tu-104 production version was the SECOND production version of a jet airliner to fly, and the Tu-104 was indeed the SECOND in revenue service. If it makes sense to list the Jetliner, then the Nene-Viking makes as much sense. If the original prototype Caravelle and the Comet 1 are counted, then surely the Dash-Eighty should count as well.

Definitions and data - the dH 106 Comet is generally considered the first jet airliner, certainly first in service:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet
dH 106 Comet first flight: Jul 27, 1949
dH 106 Comet I first passenger flight: May 2, 1952
but in-flight disasters and subsequent investigations led to a significant redesign, the re-launched Comet 4:
dH 106 Comet 4 first flight: 27 April 1958
dH 106 Comet 4 London-New York service: 4 October 1958

But the first jet airliner *prototype* had already flown, a VC.1B Viking with RR Nene engines, one of a batch of 115 Viking 1Bs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_VC.1_Viking
Vickers Type 618 Nene-Viking first flight: 6 April 1948
Vickers Type 618 Nene-Viking flew Heathrow-Paris on 25 July, 1948, commemorating Blériot's 1909 flight across the English Channel.
but it was not produced and never entered commercial service. The prototype was eventually converted to piston engines and propellers.

So the THIRD prototype for a commercial jet airliner to fly was the CF-102 Jetliner, a few days after the Comet prototype.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_Jetliner
AVRO Canada CF-102 Jetliner first flight: 10 August 1949
but it was not produced and never entered commercial service.

Now it gets complicated indeed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_367-80
Boeing 367-80, a prototype 4 engine jet transport first flown in 1954. This must be the FOURTH prototype to fly...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-135
The first production Stratotanker flew in August 1956 - different aluminum alloys and narrow fuselage compared to 707
First delivery to USAF at Castle Air Force Base, California, in June 1957
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707
the initial production 707-120, first flew on December 20, 1957. (before production Caravelle, after production Tu-104)
Pan American World Airways began regular 707 service on October 26, 1958.

The Caravelle prototype was thus the FIFTH jet airliner prototype to take to the air: though the THIRD that would lead to production. But the first flight of the production version was the FIFTH production version of a jet airliner to fly. (Its reasonable to conclude that some of the delay may have been due to the Comet 1 losses and the Comet 4 redesign, since the Caravelle licensed Comet technology and used the cockpit and forward fuselage outright.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sud_Aviation_Caravelle
SNCASE / SUD Caravelle SE 210: First flight 27 May 1955*

• Caravelle 1 production version, first flight 14 May 1958
  

http://www.planecrazy.me.uk/html/caravelle.html
First revenue flight 26 April 1959 for SAS.

And three weeks later the first Tu-104 prototype flew, becoming the SIXTH, prototype to fly, world wide:
Tupolev Tu-104 Aeroflot's First Jet, Gordon & Rigmant (C) 2007
Tu-104 first flight: June 17, 1955
First production airframe flight: August, 1955
First revenue flight: 15 September, 1956

Finally, the runners up:
http://www.dc-8jet.com/0-ship-one-history1.htm
First flight: May 30, 1958
First production airframe flight: December 1958
The DC-8 first revenue flight, September 18, 1959, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines,

Baade 152: First flight, 4 December 1958

Convair 880, Model 22, made its maiden flight on January 27, 1959

Making sequences of first flights and introduction to revenue service, and sorting by date, we get:

Prototype & initial production version first flights: Vickers Type 618 Nene-Viking first flight: 6 April 1948 "First" prototype jet airliner.
dH 106 Comet first flight: Jul 27, 1949 "Second" prototype jet airliner,
AVRO Canada CF-102 Jetliner first flight: 10 August 1949 "Third" prototype jet airliner
Boeing 367-80, a prototype 4 engine jet transport first flown in 1954. "Fourth" prototype jet airliner
SNCASE / SUD Caravelle SE 210: First flight 27 May 1955* "Fifth" prototype jet airliner
Tu-104 first flight: June 17, 1955 "Sixth" prototype jet airliner
Tu-104 First production airframe flight: August, 1955
Boeing KC-135 first production Stratotanker flew in August 1956
Boeing 707-120 initial production version, first flew on December 20, 1957
dH 106 Comet 4 first flight: 27 April 1958
SNCASE SE 210 *Caravelle 1 production version, first flight 14 May 1958
DC-8 First flight: May 30, 1958 "Seventh" prototype jet airliner
Baade 152: First flight, 4 December 1958 "Eighth" prototype jet airliner
DC-8 First production airframe flight: ('ship 2') December 1958
Convair 880, Model 22, made its maiden flight on January 27, 1959 "Ninth" prototype jet airliner

First paying/passenger/revenue flights:
dH 106 Comet I first passenger flight: May 2, 1952 BOAC "First" revenue commercial jet airliner
Tu-104 First revenue flight: 15 September, 1956 Aeroflot "Second" revenue commercial jet airliner
dH 106 Comet 4 London-New York service: 4 October 1958, BOAC "Third" revenue commercial jet airliner
Boeing 707 service on October 26, 1958. Pan American World Airways "Fourth" revenue commercial jet airliner
Caravelle 1 First revenue flight 26 April 1959 for SAS. "Fifth" revenue commercial jet airliner
DC-8 first revenue flight, September 18, 1959, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines, "Sixth" revenue commercial jet airliner

Note that the second list looks a lot more like the list of production versions:
dH 106 Comet I production version first flight: < May 1952.. "First" *production* jet airliner flight,
Tu-104 First production airframe flight: August, 1955 "Second" *production* jet airliner flight,
Boeing 707-120 initial production version, first flew on December 20, 1957 "Third" *production* jet airliner flight,
dH 106 Comet 4 first flight: 27 April 1958 "Forth" *production* jet airliner flight,
SNCASE SE 210 *Caravelle 1 production version, first flight 14 May 1958 "Fifth" *production* jet airliner flight,
DC-8 First production airframe flight: ('ship 2') December 1958 "Sixth" *production* jet airliner flight,
Convair 880, Model 22, made its maiden flight on January 27, 1959 "Seventh" *production* jet airliner flight,
-than the list of prototypes, which is as it should be.

Billabbott (talk) 10:19, 14 March 2013 (UTC) BillAbbott Billabbott (talk) 09:58, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Intro and accident stats

The intro should reflect that fact that the 104 was the first 'successfully operated' jet airliner, that is, one with an acceptable accident rate considering when it was introduced. Although the accident rate was high, it was not unusually so compared to other early jet airliners that came after it (18% vs Boeing 707 = 16.4% & DC 8 = 15%) so I mentioned that plus changed the text to 'subsequent' airliners (for the first 2 years of operation there were no other airliners with which to compare it). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vassten (talk • contribs) 19:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Glazed nose

Why did the navigator need to see out of the nose? Is there some military significance to this design feature? Danceswithzerglings (talk) 21:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Generally, at the time the Soviet Union didn't have access-to, or place such reliance-on, electronic navigation aids such as LORAN, GEE, or Decca (which the de Havilland Comet used). They tended to rely on the older-style Dead reckoning, as the USSR didn't have the extensive network of ground stations and beacons that the electronic aids required, hence the navigator would still have to get visual fixes from ground landmarks, etc. This also applied to their military aircraft, and is the reason why they still featured glazed noses long after they had disappeared from Western designs.

The majority of these western electronic navigation aids of the 1940s-1950s were a result of the RAF's night bombing campaign against Germany during WW II (GEE for example) and because of this the networks (or civilian modifications of them) were in use in western Europe at the end of, or shortly after the war. Because of the start of the Cold War though, the Soviets were unable to gain access to these systems (much would have been secret about them due to the original purpose of the systems), plus the then-Soviet Union was of much greater area than Europe and would have been expensive to implement (in terms of building the ground stations) even if they had been able to get the technology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.254.27 (talk) 13:32, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Double Czechoslovakia?

In the article there is czechoslovakia stated twice as section (bottom, airliners). I'm not much to wiki templates, please somebody fix it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.40.109.248 (talk) 11:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Passenger comfort?

The text notes that "the new jet dramatically increased the level of passenger comfort" when referring to the shortening of flight time. I don't know about sitting comfort, but my recollection of flying a Tu-104 in the early 1970's is that the engines -- which were located in the fuselage right next to the passenger cabin -- made such a racked that one couldn't hear oneself yell and conversation with the cabin personnel (who are not mentioned as part of the crew!) had to take place using sign language. Also, I do not recall any "Victorian" decor; the furnishings were adequate but basic, the only bit of luxury was complementary brandy served in a real glass (which I still have).--Death Bredon (talk) 21:16, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

There was more than one version of the Tu-104, with different interior arrangements. The Tu-104 sans suffix, i.e. the first production model, had a first class section in the front of the plane which featured wood paneling, leather couches, swiveling armchairs and lace lamp shades. Seating was three or four abreast. In the tourist class section in back there were conventional, airline style seats, but still only four abreast. The Tu-104A had conventional airliner seats in first class, with four seats in a row. In the back of the cabin there were five seats in a row. The Tu-104B had only one class in the whole plane, with seating being six abreast. The Tu-104B could carry 117 pax, the Tu-104A 70 pax, the Tu-104 sans suffix carried 50 pax. All this is according to "Red Star - Volume 35 - Tupolev Tu-104" by Yefim Gordon and Vladimir Rigmant; Ian Allan Publishing Ltd. Hersham, Surrey 2007; ISBN 978 1 85780 265 8) --Tdaddato (talk) 01:42, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Irrelevant matter...

It is completely irrelevant to enumerate how many antecessor an Aircraft have if are more than a few; six is too much. Neither of the other articles of the first jetliners have such a king of “rare” explanation.

Guinart (talk) 03:24, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Were westerners surprised by the arrival of the Tu-104 in London during a 1956 state visit?

Compared to the DH106 Comet, the only western jet airliner, the Tu-104 was a more modern plane. The wings had more sweep back, the engine nacelles were area ruled, etc. Details like this may not have been noticed at the airshow in Russia. But with the plane being in London in 1956, anybody - including aviation experts - could easily look over every detail of the Tu-104. People in the west did not expect the USSR to have such advanced technology. Especially since this was still before Sputnik.--Tdaddato (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Looking

fortu-104 Pilot Peter Solditor? 68.67.37.5 (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Total number of dead

All this time and no one has done a total number of dead from all the crashes?--Mark v1.0 (talk) 14:15, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

• I put a total in.--Mark v1.0 (talk) 14:37, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Need to correct aircraft serial number

The serial number for the crash on July 25, 1971 is the same as the serial number for the May 25 crash Davidhale22 (talk) 20:43, 27 July 2023 (UTC)