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|WikiProject Philosophy||(Rated Start-class)|
Within different schools of Buddhism
the first difficulty is i focus on Theravada's teachings. I think this teaching remains the same in every "school" but..?
as it is, this page i created seems incorrect to me. i put a "whole description" part in order to detail which condition apply to which step. i still want to writte it, but would like an echo, as this further development could be quite long. It could take place in another page. pyl 13:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I think with regard to the issue of other schools, the best course if we're unsure (and I certainly don't know enough about non-Theravada views of patticca samupadda to comment) is to simply clearly identify the origin of the material- that it stems from a Theravada reading of the concept, rooted in Buddhaghosa- and then hope that someone better versed in the Mahayana or the defunct Hinayana schools can come in and either say that they agree with the Theravada reading, or where it differs. There are already some comments on a varient interpretation of dependent origination in the Madhyamaka school over at Pratitya-samutpada, for instance.
- I reorganized things a little bit; I put the 12 bases in the order that they are in the Visuddhimagga (at least Nanamoli's translation), and made the translations the category headings, with the Pali where it's available in parens afterwords. The rest of the Pali terms can be filled in later.
- I'm having a little difficulty interpreting the passage about the complication that the Five Aggregates present; is the difficulty due to the fact that the faculties of perception and descriminiation are typically given as part of the five skandha (which would make the 'name and form' step in reality a set of 2-4 steps)? It would be also helpful if the explanation of the 24 types of conditioning could be expanded a bit; the first sentence is a little unclear to me, and I'm not sure how they fit into the picture.
- Conceptually, I'm more concerned about clearly distinguishing how this article is different from the dependent origination page. I think to make this more complimentary to that page, the best thing would be to expand the individual descriptions of the Twelve Nidanas (most likely using the VM as a reference). --Clay Collier 09:23, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Namarupa vs. Skandhas
I reverted the Pali term associated with 'body and mind' back to 'namarupa' from 'skandhas'. Couple reasons; first of all, because it is the term that is used in the modern translation of the Visuddhimagga. Secondly, namarupa (lit. name and form, body and mind) is a much closer translation of body and mind than skandha (heap, aggregate, factor) is. I know that the namarupa article is blank right now, but it is a significant enough term in both Hinduism and Buddhism that it's reasonable to think that it should be filled at some point. --Clay Collier 22:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well, i will try to begin this article and hope someone to make it better pyl 5 July 2005 15:55 (UTC)
I began the point of Twelve Nidanas : which condition apply to which terms. Ouch, the matter is to define clearly theses terms -as becoming, which can be divided in a lot of categories. I will soon work on the first part :The Twelve Nidanas, using it to expose the categories, or linkinkg to one article exposing theses. pyl 5 July 2005 15:55 (UTC)
Reader's Comment: Please forgive, found some incoherencies. 1. the list of "The Whole Description" only shows 11 nidanas. -- It appears that between "name and form and "contact" is missing six-sense-spheres and its accompanying example.
2. also, because am studying this matter, tried to follow the connection between the 24 types of conditions and the next section, "The Whole Description", could not coordinate the two. The problem for me, the stranger to the site, arises from my desire for coherency, and reliance on the description for the section, indicating that it outlines which conditions apply to which part of dependent origination.
At the beginning was the writing, "Examples are explained to understand these conditions, but they are included in the next section in order not to repeat them." I searched forward and could not make out what examples and explanations and sections were being used, but ascertained that they indeed are not repeated.
A search for the terms from the list of 24 within the "Whole Description" showed only a few references to "strong support" -- no references to the other 23 types of conditions, and I missed the connection that the author apparently saw between the 24 types of conditions and the following Whole Description.
The 24 types list purports to be a "full list" -- is it possible to cite here, or link, or qualify, so the reader can get an idea of why the types of conditions were tabulated, and how they were related to the pratitya-samutpada?
Finally, I would like to see an expansion on the word "conditions" in the Whole Description section. Was there any discourse about how ignorance "conditions" activities? The readers' imaginations are good, but they probably would like to see what the traditional Buddhist thought is on this. Again, please forgive...Kogangmin (talk) 19:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
questions about this article's title
I'm wondering about this article's title for multiple reasons:
- it's a combination of English ("Twelve") and Pali ("Nidana" -- with a non-Pali pluralization)
- both words are capitalized suggesting (at least based on my understanding of WP policy) that it is not simply a phrase (like "twelve nidana") but is actually a title of some sort (like "Ben Hur")
- it specifies 12 nidana -- seemingly excluding the 9- and 10-nidana formulations of DN 15, SN 12.65, etc., but for no obvious reason
Could someone please share with me the reasons for this? I'd like to expand this article (e.g., with tables, with Pali canonical and other post-canonical material [e.g., the Abhidhammatta Sangaha]) but am reluctant to do so without more fully understanding this article's scope and purpose which, presumably, are reflected in this title. I guess I'm thinking, intuitively, alternate titles might be something along the lines of:
- "specific conditionality" (idappaccayata, e.g., as discussed at Vism. XVII, 7)
- Nidana (to replace the seemingly confused, misleading stub that already exists there)
- I agree that the title is odd. The subject matter is good though, and it's important. I wasn't aware of 9/10 nidana formulations, but if they are important we should include them here. Maybe the article should be renamed Nidāna ? 20040302 (talk) 12:04, 24 May 2011 (UTC)
Twenty-four types of conditions
Conditions, reason, source, are described by the Visuddhimagga as the same. Conditioning an agent means to cause it, being taken as an object by it, to occur in the same time. The full list helps to consider many sorts of conditions as the causal condition is only one of them. Examples are explained to understand these conditions, but they are included in the next section in order not to repeat them.
- Both a condition and a cause. Each condition responds to this principle to be both a condition and something else. Note that a cause does not transmit any "substance" - see Three marks of existence.
- An agent that helps another one by being its object. All that can be known can be an object condition.
- An agent that helps another one by mastering it.
- An agent that helps another one considering its immediacy.
- Full immediacy
- Same meaning as the immediacy condition.
- An agent that helps another one by appearing on the same time "as the lamp for the light".
- Agents that help themselves and consolidate themselves are one for the others "reciprocity condition".
- An agent that helps another one by being a basement for it.
- Strong support
- A strong basement.
- An agent that helps another one by appearing before it.
- A psychic agent that helps an older and physical one reinforcing it.
- A state of mind that conditions a following and similar state of mind.
- An action that is an intentional effort.
- A serene state of mind helping another one to be serene.
- The four "foods" : the food helps the body, but "psychic foods" helps associated factors.
- For example, the ocular faculty helps the ocular conscience.
- The jhānas are said to be associated with some characteristics : vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha or on the contrary upekkhā and ekaggatā. Jhānas are conditioning these.
- The way to leave the saṃsāra. Some factors are associated with this way.
- The four non-physical skandhas help themselves by being associated to the same object.
- Physical and non-physical agents helping themselves by not being associated to the same object. For example, a calm state of mind helping some physical aspects to be - but not always to appear, as the dissociation condition can be anterior, posterior or simultaneous...
- An agent helping another, similar one by making it strong.
- Non-physical agents, ceasing, help another one to appear.
- Same as the inexistence condition.
- Same as the existence condition.
The "Conception and Birth" Section
I actually looked up this article because it was cited (in a somewhat hilarious way) in an article on a Sri Lankan news website: http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items/2012/05/15/an-outsiders-view-16-paticca-samuppada-model-offers-a-superb-approach-to-analyze-universal-phenomena/ There seems to be a tremendous human appetite to see information displayed as a flow-chart diagram… even if the diagram serves no purpose but to restate the text…
Currently, the Wikipedia article's section on "Conception and Birth" hangs on only a single source (there are others out there, guys!). I just added a link (via the same citation, no change to the substance of the article) to the follow-up article by the same author. You guys might get a kick out of this, if any of you are still debating the substance of the thing: http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.ca/2012/05/causality-and-canonicity.html
Within Buddhist literature
I am moving this section to this page from the page Pratītyasamutpāda. This information is specific to the twelve links, so it makes more sense on this page. I will remove the section from Pratītyasamutpāda soon. - Dorje108 (talk) 16:13, 1 September 2012 (UTC)