Talk:Workers' Front (Spain)

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Spain

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Ideology/policies/position

Not sure why people need to hear this (especially since I'm having to say this on an article for a party I only learnt about through the existence of this page) but if you are going to mess with the ideology/political position listed in the infobox, or the wording of the stated policies listed please actually provide a source, good reason, or at the very least try discussing it first. Totalibe (talk) 17:59, 8 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pol revision I find it very strange how you are insisting on sources for one specific ideology listing but none of the others. Totalibe (talk) 15:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Because the rest of labels are both admitted by them, neutral people and critics, so there is no necessity to question those labels. However, the idea of "Spanish nationalism" is questioned, not only by critics from progressive movements, but also from conservative to leninist critics.

If it is to be added, at least a reference should be mentioned so people can see who labels them as Spanish nationalists.

I will also like to add that they put great emphasis, at least now, on the self-determination of Catalonia and other regions and on Federalism, which are positions rarely found in Spanish nationalist movements and ideologies. Pol revision (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Far left label

Just looking at the page, the many of its positions listed or its accused of having (natalism, anti-feminism, anti-surrogacy, racism, anti-immigration/islamophobia, homophobia/transphobia, anti-affirmative action, anti-political correctness, and supporting the great replacement theory) seem counter to most far-left or generally progressive social positions. Either these are mischaracterizations of the party's positions, or it shouldn't be plainly labeled as "far-left" in the info box and instead syncretic with left-wing or far-left economic positions and right-wing or far-right social positions. Because I don't live in Spain nor speak Spanish I can't truly assess the sources or tell whether the social positions are considered extremely conservative in Spanish society, but it doesn't seem like the info-box label and the party's apparent positions match up. Atriskofmistake (talk) 21:56, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The thing here is that FO is not racist, anti-inmigration or things like that.

They are, indeed, syncretic and do not classify as left themselves, but... well.

I think you get the point, this page is gonna be a mess as this party is very polemical. WillyElSalami (talk) 13:50, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for answering to almost a year-old discussion, but I wanted to say that I removed the syncretic label. Why? Because there is no evidence for such claim.

I found three sources that describe the party as left-wing, which is what I went by. The syncretic label is WP:OR at best, since there is no reliable source that explicitly describes the party as such, and the only sign of it would be the excerpt from the party's manifesto rejecting the left-right dichotomy. The thing is that the party's self-identification is, of course, irrelevant and it is a primary source, which is highly unreliable.

I am open to discussion with this topic, but it is important that we reflect the consensus of political commentators and political scientists. These, however, largely classify the party as left-wing. Brat Forelli🦊 16:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My issue with the left-wing label stems from the stated positions of the party being, as far as I can tell, decidedly not left-wing. Is there any evidence that they take left-wing stances on social issues, in the same vein as Sumar or Podemos? Atriskofmistake (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Frente Obrero definitely is not a socially progressive party like the two you listed. The thing is, however, is that it does not have to be. It is inaccurate to base the left-right divide on social liberalism-social conservatism. An example of parties that are socially conservative but are nevertheless left-wing would be Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht, the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, as well as the Self-Defence of the Republic of Poland. I think even more "blatant" examples would also be Lithuanian Farmers and Greens Union and League and Self-Defense.

To put it simply, social liberalism/progressivism is not exclusive to the left, and social conservatism is not exclusive to the right, and it would be a misunderstanding of political science to make these defining factors in definitions. Here I would cite Bridging Left and Right? How Sahra Wagenknecht Could Change the German Party Landscape by Sarah Wagner, L. Constantin Wurthmann and Jan Philipp Thomeczek:

The term left-authoritarian does not necessarily imply antidemocratic tendencies of parties within this spectrum. Rather, we follow the conceptualisation by the literature on these parties (see, e.g., Lefkofridi et al. 2014 and Federico et al. 2017) in which “left authoritarians” are understood as parties with leftwing economic positions while being “authoritarian, conservative and nationalist on cultural policy issues” (Hillen and Steiner 2020, p. 331)

The phenomenon of socially conservative leftism exists, and it is can be called left-authoritarianism, as in case of that paper. It is also important to note the rather complicated relationship of far-left ideologies, such as Marxism-Leninism (and communism in general), towards social progressivism. Many of the movements and regimes that represented this ideology could hardly be considered socially progressive. Yet their communist nature, nor the fact that communism is far-left, are not questioned. Brat Forelli🦊 18:04, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, Bündnis Sahra Wagenknecht is very comparable to Frente Obrero, and could be considered its German equivalent in many ways. It is socially conservative, and it is also largely described as left-wing. Just like in case of this party. Brat Forelli🦊 18:31, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just in case I'll remind you that Frente Obrero isn't a communist party. WillyElSalami (talk) 18:34, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so it just so happens to have been founded by Marxist–Leninist Party (Communist Reconstruction), it has a leader who self-identifies as a Marxist-Leninist and a communist,^[1] it is called a communist formation by some sources,^[2] and is said to consider itself communist too?^[3] Not to mention that it was said to adhere to Marxist-Leninism by a political science journal.^[4]

Keep in mind we are Wikipedians, we are supposed to reflect what the sources say. It is not our job to debate what is real communism and what not, since that would be WP:OR and it is not up to us to decide. Do you have sources that argue the party is explicity not communist?

References

^ Coiduras, Cynthia (19 September 2019). "Qué es Frente Obrero, el partido de izquierdas que escrachea a políticos de Podemos" (in Spanish).
^ "El submarino: El fantasma del Frente Obrero". La Razón (Madrid) (in Spanish). 6 June 2024.
^ Bordón, Roberto (30 May 2023). "Frente Obrero: amigo de picoletos y enemigo de trabajadores" (in Spanish).
^ Forti, Steven (20 December 2023). "El parasitismo ideológico de las nuevas extremas derechas. Gramscistas de derechas y rojipardos en Francia, Italia y España (1968-2022)". Estudos Ibero-Americanos (in Spanish). 49 (1): 19. doi:10.15448/1980-864X.2023.1.44161. ISSN 1980-864X.

Brat Forelli🦊 07:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Coiduras, Cynthia (19 September 2019). "Qué es Frente Obrero, el partido de izquierdas que escrachea a políticos de Podemos" (in Spanish).

[2] "El submarino: El fantasma del Frente Obrero". La Razón (Madrid) (in Spanish). 6 June 2024.

[3] Bordón, Roberto (30 May 2023). "Frente Obrero: amigo de picoletos y enemigo de trabajadores" (in Spanish).

[4] Forti, Steven (20 December 2023). "El parasitismo ideológico de las nuevas extremas derechas. Gramscistas de derechas y rojipardos en Francia, Italia y España (1968-2022)". Estudos Ibero-Americanos (in Spanish). 49 (1): 19. doi:10.15448/1980-864X.2023.1.44161. ISSN 1980-864X.

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