Talk:Zim (Invader Zim)
|This page was nominated for deletion on 13 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was merge to Invader Zim.|
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Nao Nagasawa information
^You've listed the wrong link, it should point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Nagasawa. :]
Explanation of heavy editing
Sorry to previous author(s), but this page was a mess IMO. Lots of unfounded speculation about the character, some stuff that probably belongs better in either the Invader Zim mainpage or a spinoff page - is there one for the Irken race?- and a lot of quoting and general fluff that really didn't belong. I tried to tighten it up and get it to focus just on Zim himself. --J. Random Lurker
- You did a fantastic job, IMHO. J Random Lurker...don't I remember you from the old Zim IRC channel? --InShaneee 06:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, yeah. I haven't been back that way in a long time, though. Heh, those were the days. I was the one who helped get that first encode of Frycook out to the fans before it aired when I got the bootleg DVD from e-bay. Still have it somewhere... --J. Random Lurker
- I remember, I remember...I believe I was going by DJFroggy back then...drop me a line on my userpage sometime!
Unfinished episode scripts?
Should these count or shouldn't they? I have seen the Mopiness of Doom material from my previous edit cut out, but The Trial material was left intact. IMO, we can't have it both ways. Do unfinished/unproduced scripts count, or should it be limited to only material that actually was animated and appeared in episodes? If that's the case, several of the Zim pages will need to be scaled back as a large amount of the 'backstory' and background information came unofficially from staff members to fans, rather than being presented in the body of the show proper. Any thoughts on this? J. Random Lurker 01:51, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
oh, yeah I took out the "Mopiness" part, since that episode, along with several other season 2 episodes seemed pretty inconsistent with the rest of the series. I guessed at the time that keeping "The Trial" would be okay since it provided some interesting background on Zim's past, but if you wanna go that way, it's fine too.
Yes, you are right that a good deal of Zim facts were never shown in the actual episodes, but I would take some of the stuff that staff members were saying with no more than a pinch of sand. I've read some interviews with the creator and various crew members, and a lot of the little details and bg were never offically canonized, but those were just working ideas that they were thinking of just possibly incorporating if the series progressed longer. So, for that reason, a lot of the outside information could be less than pertinent.
I am also adding a paragraph in for Gaz in the relation section, just to round off the major characters. I'm pretty sure I hit the whole Zim/Gaz thing on the nose (I even tied in the progressive stupidity theme!), but you can tell me what you think of my insights.
- I've removed the Zim/Gaz section in its entirety. The only evidence there was even the slightest thing going on between them is in various fanfiction, which is not appropriate for mention on wikipedia. --InShaneee 19:50, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Zim's a really inconsistent series. And I don't think it's right to pick and choose what s2 or unfinished info is and isn't included. I think as long as material that comes from the end of the series is clearly marked as such (i.e., clearly notated as unproduced script or unfinished material), it's fair game, regardless of how consistent it is with the first season. Part of the quality of Zim is that things are fluid. I mean, the moon's been destroyed in Planet Jackers, but it's back again for Halloween and later episodes. The Earth's been relocated, Mars was flung out of its orbit entirely, as was Mercury... Just my two cents, but Mopiness, and any other season 2 ep or unfinished script are equally fair game.J. Random Lurker 20:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. It's the general rule for most cartoons that canon isn't much of an issue (HOW many times did Kenny die?). So, although I'm not sure how much we should get into it, if it's official, it probably belongs somewhere. --InShaneee 20:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- The thing with "Mopiness" is that it felt particularly out of character, even in spite the conglomerate of different writers, and staff's takes on the show. Zim had always been a strong willed, egocentric individual whose drive to conquer always came from within. From flashback episodes we can see from that through all these years through his life he's never changed, always the same megolomaniac whose never relied on anyone or anything in his ridiculous schemes. There was never any real visible character development on this nature of his throughout the series, so it would seem baseless for such an episode to be written: it was a very lame idea IMO. No offense to Ms. Koenig, if you somehow read this, but her few contributions were the weakest/most uninspired/unimaginative throughout the series, so that just makes the grounds for the episode wobblier to me. Yes, there varying takes and angles as the series went but I usually rely on the Vazquez/Hummel written episodes for the best characterizations of Zim, even though, yes I know, nothing was ever really all that cemented on the show.
- As for the Gaz paragraph, that was how I remembered it, a little like the Tak thing with Dib, but a fraction as prominent. I could look back at the old Dvd to check it out again, but Gaz didn't really have such a hatey attitude towards Zim earlier on. But yeah, it could have just been a change in the character writing, knowing the volatile status of the show. And no, I'm not supporting any fan faction spins on Zim.
- I don't see how the quality of the writing is relevant. Wikipedia takes no point of view, so as long as it IS verifyable, that doesn't matter. --InShaneee 04:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah but I just didn't like was that was how the article was written as if it were canonical. (that NeonMonkie)
- Whether you personally like or dislike Danielle Koenig or any other staff writer's work is irrelevant. The show was written by others besides Vasquez/Hummel and all scripts were approved by Vasquez. Additionally, I don't much care for most of Eric Trueheart's material, especially season 2, but that doesn't stop me from citing the Trial where necessary as much of the Irken backstory/development came from Trueheart-written episodes. It is not OK to say that only two of authors are 'canon' in a Wiki article, or to imply as much. J. Random Lurker 05:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- Okay, well you do have to acknowledge this: There are two different suns from which Zim is orbiting. Looking into season 2 we can still see episodes like "The Girl Who Cried Gnome" in which Zim IS scheming on his latest situation, no Dib- everything is perfect. He seems to have everything check-mated, happily ready to leave the rock he's on- absolutely no conscious thought of waiting for his nemesis to show up and stir matters. But then, what do you know, Dib hits the scene, Zim's day is in utter ruin now! I could go into more examples from episodes like "Room With a Moose" (Zim does state that he would prefer a pleasant mission w/o Dib), and "Plague of Babies" (Gir makes the quip that more than just that baby knows Zim's identity, but Zim retorts by saying that this is actually something serious). So, in spite of whether one prefers the internally motivated portrayal or not, citing that ONE script would be inheritently bias on characterization, as it is only shedding light on one side of the coin. In short, Methinks the article would do just fine without the reference.
- and the fact that the episode in question was written later than those examples I gave Ms totally irrelevant. Being the casual project that the show was, time really never was a factor in progression. The show in essence, was basically a fanfic convention, in which Vasquez was on the most part lenient on what could be written for his creation. If a key staff member wanted to do their own thing at one point or another, it would likely have made it into the show eventually (particularly true for the second season, of course-those guys just to DULL the chararcter's edge, bast..). You can probe into commentary, and look up any interview yourself if you don't believe me. But the point is that a spin put on a character later on is really no more vital than what has been done for the individual in the past. We already know that there was no evidence of character development by the time of "that questionable episode," so we have to assume that the characterization was an insert. (so don't even think of making the argument that the episode being written later makes it a more official interpretation of Zim.)
-radyactive Neaon Munkey
- I'm not interested in arguing or in 'being right'. That serves no purpose to the wiki. My only concern is to create a balanced, accurate page for Zim's character. Therefore I am going to bleach out all references to any external relationships (Gir, Dib and Gaz included) and retool the section to focus exclusively on Zim's basic personality. Neither the Gaz nor Dib pages take any 'relationship' into account, and I think it could be argued it doesn't belong in Zim either. Having a 'relationship' section only invites shippy arguments of this type anyway. J. Random Lurker 19:01, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- The fact is, wikipedia policy is fairly clear on this topic. Official material may (and in most cases MUST) be cited, REGARDLESS of its 'quality' (which can only be ascertained by POV judgements, which don't belong here). We can't 'assume' anything about the scripts, we must work off what we know (which is that they were at least prototypes of what would end up on air). Secondly, it's extremely clear that fanfiction material does NOT belong here. --InShaneee 23:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- um, yeah that's good
Should we switch out...?
In the paragraph about his resorcefulness and ability to make plans, I feel that the part about his escaping Foodcourtia should be removed. Because it was told to him, it doesn't really show much. Instead, his plot from Dib's Wonderful Life of Doom should be used. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 23:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Stephen B.
A source that could be used: Jerry Beck's Not Just Cartoons: Nicktoons!
I found a book in the bookstore called Not Just Cartoons: Nicktoons! by Jerry Beck. I'm not going to buy it and join the project, but I will ask the other members to get the book so that they can add real world information about various fictional characters.
This makes the creation of separate articles for *many* fictional characters feasible. Having information about the development of the character will make the articles satisfy Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)
- Removed the copy edit tag. But the issues are still there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anon423 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
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