Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace

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Template-protected edit request on 3 April 2015[edit]

"harm" should be changed to "disrupt" as per {{uw-generic4}} TL22 (talk) 19:39, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Withdrawn as the {{{reason}}} parameter is almost never left unused. --TL22 (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 5 April 2015[edit]

I think the phrase "it has become apparent that it is being used only for vandalism" should be changed to "it is being used only for vandalism" to match {{uw-voablock}}. --TL22 (talk) 13:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC) TL22 (talk) 13:47, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Pictogram voting question.svg Question: Which template are you talking about? (Note that all the talk pages of user warnings redirect here) Kharkiv07Talk 19:29, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. Kharkiv07, the template name was displayed in the {{edit template-protected}} box. -- John of Reading (talk) 05:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Can redirect[edit]

Why not redirect "uw-disrupt5" to "uw-block" and redirect "uw-test5" and "uw-vandalism5" to "uw-vblock" and bla bla bla... Pikachu2568 pika!sandmoves @ — Preceding undated comment added 09:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I guess that people who are not familiar with these templates may think that they are warnings, not block messages. MadGuy7023 (talk) 10:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Recency of templates, {{uw-tdel2}}[edit]

@Kendrick7: Regarding your edit comment here from when you reinserted "recent" in front of "maintenance templates in {{uw-tdel2}}:

  • If an article is a COI, then people who come upon it ten years from now (if the problem hasn't been fixed in that time) have the same need to be aware of it as people who come upon it the day after it's posted.
  • If an article isn't neutral, and no one has fixed it in five years, it's still non-neutral and it still needs to be flagged.
  • If someone questioned a statement made in an article by adding a {{cn}} tag, and five years later no one has cited a source, the tag should still be there so that someone seeing it will know to consider that the statement bearing the tag should probably be removed.
  • Etc.

I believe the templates are dated so that we can see how long it's been since someone questioned the notability of the article (if one has been in place for a year I'll give extra consideration to dealing with it once and for all), since someone requested a citation (if one hasn't been provided and the request was justified, I'm going to remove the tagged statement if the tag has been there long enough), etc. I don't believe you're supposed to update the dates, and don't see why that would be a good thing to do. —Largo Plazo (talk) 14:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

It feels like 90% of the time I'm here using wikipedia as an encyclopedia the top of the page has one or more tags from ages ago on it. As such, I consider the proliferation of what I like to call "tagcruft" a real problem. Sure, sometimes something gets tagged as a placeholder that a conscientious editor means to come back to, but if it's been over a year and that hasn't happened, I believe it's perfectly appropriate to remove the tag. If the problem is ongoing, then by all means, another editor should feel free to restore the tag and include a new date to reflect that, whatever the problem is, it's still currently a mess. I remove year+ old tags all the time, and only once in a long while is there ever a complaint. So I find it dubious that a 'plate should exist which sort of insists that tagcruft should be immortal. -- Kendrick7talk 15:30, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The problems that the tags flag are real problems. One of the things the tags accomplish, by the way, is to include the articles containing them into maintenance categories so that people who are interested in performing some type of maintenance can do so easily. What is the point of removing a still-flawed article from the list of articles needing to have their flaws addressed? And if an article is flawed, what purpose is served by removing it from the list of articles containing similar flaws and then counting on someone to come back and notice it again? The tags do no harm by sitting there, and their value doesn't disappear. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Old tags absolutely do harm. The first thing a reader of an article sees shouldn't be a declaration that Wikipedia doesn't have its act together on the topic at hand, and has no plan to ever do so. On top of that, unfortunately, too many editors think just throwing a tag on an article is "good enough" rather than going to the effort of actually fixing whatever quibble they might have. That's not behavior which should be codified in a template. -- Kendrick7talk 15:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
The first thing a reader sees should be an advisory that the article has flaws. Why would Wikipedia pretend otherwise? We aren't trying to trick people into trusting every article unconditionally. If the purpose wasn't to warn, then we'd just throw pages into maintenance categories and not have these banners at all. And if the tags serve a purpose a week after being posted, they serve the same purpose a year or five years later.
It's perfectly good behavior at least to flag problems in an article even if one doesn't, oneself, have the time, knowledge, or resources necessary to address them. If an article on a technical topic outside of my sphere is obviously confusingly written, I'm not the expert who's going to rewrite it, but I certainly want to flag that it needs rewriting. —Largo Plazo (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

There's absolutely no excuse for removing "old" maintenance tags if the problem in the article is still there. In fact I think it's disruptive editing to remove those tags only because you think they're ugly or whatever. "...a declaration that Wikipedia doesn't have its act together on the topic at hand, and has no plan to ever do so..." -- see Wikipedia:There is no deadline, and then see all the featured articles and Good articles that we already have and the amount of them is growing all the time -- Wikipedia in its entirety is always a work in progress and there's nothing shameful about that -- there's no reason to want to pretend that some articles don't have problems when they do, in fact we have to make it obvious with every article that it is NOT okay here to write advertisements or opinion pieces or completely unsourced articles because it would leave the impression that that's okay and people will create even more of those. Articles that have problems need to be tagged as such because we have rules here and those rules need to be enforced, and this applies in every article, no matter how old it is. No exceptions.

"unfortunately, too many editors think just throwing a tag on an article is "good enough"..." -- you know what? Finding, identifying, and tagging problematic articles is actually hard work if you do it right. Hard and necessary. It's so easy for some single-purpose or niche-purpose account to whip up some text and call it an article, and then apparently it's everyone else's job to fix it up, especially regular/experienced editors'. No. There are tons of articles out there that get created like this, and it would be literally idiotic of me to waste my time on articles about topics that almost no one cares about or topics that are just exceptionally unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Yes, I've helped out with a lot of articles that I have no personal interest in, simply because I have more wiki-skills so doing that takes less time for me than it would for a newbie; but I've also "drive-by" tagged loads of articles that clearly need to be fixed up but I won't volunteer for it each and every time I come across such articles -- sometimes it's just not worth it and other times the original creators or other editors are still around and they will notice and they will work harder on the article because they have more interest or enthusiasm for the article than I do, and that's great. I remove maintenance tags when it seems that the problem is fixed or the problem never existed in the first place, or where there's supposedly a problem but it's not evident and there's no discussion about it on the talk page, or when I'm not sure then I post on the talk page asking about the tag. That's how it works.

Again, some articles literally aren't worth any more time than what it takes for me to read through it and slap on a relevant tag or three. If it does turn out that someone cares about that article then they can fix it. (Or ask about what the problem is if they disagree with those tags; if you tag an article you have to be ready to justify yourself.) — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 19:04, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Agree with JG & Largo Plazo that maintenance tags should be retained if the problem they indicate has not been resolved. It's better for Wikipedia to show that some contributors are concerned for quality control - better still if the problems are dealt with as a result of the tag: Noyster (talk), 07:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Still it feels like 95% of the tags I remove get no pushback. Per Gryphon "some articles literally aren't worth any more time than what it takes for me to read through it and slap on a relevant tag or three" well, that's exactly how I feel about removing tags. In particular, with old NPOV tags where there's no ongoing discussion on the talk page, it's very hard to figure out exactly what the dispute is or was. Contra Largoplazo, often times, I'm not an expert to know when I shouldn't be removing the tag, just as often as Largo isn't expert enough to know when s/he shouldn't be adding the tag. It's a muddle. FWIW I've tried in the past to add language to WP:PRESERVE stating that it was OK to remove old tags, but the language didn't stick. I'm unaware of any other policy even attempting to take the matter of tags under its wing. On balance, I think it should be just as easy to remove tags as it is to add them, since they aren't really encyclopedic content either way. If there's not a WP:Policy to back it up, it shouldn't be in a user template. -- Kendrick7talk 19:44, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
It's fairly easy to eyeball an article to see if it's unreferenced or poorly referenced. On the other hand,  POV, Outdated, and similar issues are more subjective, and thus harder to determine the reasons they were added. But in those cases, it's prudent to review the article's history and talk page to see if a reason was given, and then remove the headers if there's no reason/discussion. I've done that myself this week several times, and removed the headers as unexplained. But I've also readded several unreferenced headers on articles that had no references, and warned the offending IP (and evidently causing this discussion in the process). - BilCat (talk) 20:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
"I'm not an expert to know when I shouldn't be removing the tag": That's easy. If you are unable to tell whether the problem flagged by a tag currently exists in the article, then trust the judgment of the person who posted it and leave it alone. The problem may remain and, if it does, we don't want its existence to go back into hiding. We don't "forget" after some period of time that we want pages to be improved when they fall short. On the other hand, if you can tell, then leave the tag if it still applies, and remove it if it was never applicable or if the problem has been fixed since the tag was posted.
I went through a number of your earlier deletions of tags. In three cases I restored the old tags, with the original dates, because it was clear to me that the problems they flagged were still present. Therefore, we still want them fixed. Therefore, the reason these tags even exist continue to apply.
In the remaining cases, your edit summary indicated that you removed them because they were old. Improper reason, but in those cases the problem being flagged didn't, in my evaluation, exist to begin with (I think one of them questioned an article's notability, but there were adequate appropriate sources) or else the original problem had been fixed since the tags were posted (but the tags hadn't been removed at the same time). —Largo Plazo (talk) 01:20, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Still it feels like 95% of the tags I remove get no pushback -- probably because no one cares. The original editors have left and no one else cares about those articles. Your removal of the tags is not noticed. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 08:44, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Concerning {{uw-username}} and {{uw-coi-username}}, can Ambox warning blue.svg Ambox warning blue.svg be changed to Nuvola apps important blue.svg Nuvola apps important blue.svg? Zeke Essiestudy (talk) 23:15, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Since this doesn't seem to be getting any responses (I posted this message on April 8th, re-listed it here and still no response), I will now carry out this change. Feel free to revert if you think Ambox warning blue is indeed the way to go. Zeke Essiestudy (talk) 00:38, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:uw-aoablock[edit]

Why is this listed to be used for indefinite blocks on accounts? One could be blocked for a shorter duration for making personal attacks, and also anonymous users could also be blocked for this offense. I recommend removing the "yes" for the indef parameter, adding the anon parameter, and then changing the copy to read "... blocked from editing for making personal attacks or threats of violence toward other editors. MusikAnimal talk 19:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

And I guess also rename the template to uw-pablock (personal attacks block). Or should we just create a separate one? The harassment block template does not serve the same purpose as a personal attacks block, and right now we only have a "attack only account" template. Personally I'd go with option 1 and move this to uw-pablock, with which we could always set indef=yes as needed. MusikAnimal talk 19:34, 16 April 2015 (UTC)