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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Everyking (talk | contribs) at 21:17, 27 January 2005. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Archives

  • Archive 1: October 5, 2004–November 27, 2004
  • Archive 2: November 27, 2004–November 28, 2004
  • Archive 3: November 28, 2004–December 8, 2004
  • Archive 4: December 9, 2004–December 29, 2004
  • Archive 5: December 29, 2004–January 13, 2005

Keep discussion on the talk page, please

This is what recent edits to the article look like:

  1. (cur) (last) 11:36, 14 Jan 2005 Worldtraveller (The 'info' is mere description of tv show and album cover minutiae - not of interest to general reader. Also, 'Schur' is not mentioned previously in article.)
  2. (cur) (last) 11:19, 14 Jan 2005 Everyking (→The making of the album and the reality show - ok, well this info here isn't anywhere else)
  3. (cur) (last) 10:57, 14 Jan 2005 Worldtraveller (Info doesn't need to be in two articles at the same time)
  4. (cur) (last) 10:51, 14 Jan 2005 Everyking (→Sales and chart success - restore some sales info)

In the same period, there have been no comments on the talk page.

Could I ask editors to please put discussion on this talk page, not in the edit summaries. If an edit needs an justification, put it here. Preferably put it here before you perform the edit. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:47, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I'm all for that. Let's stop with the massive rewrites and do some discussion and hard thinking about how we can reach a mutually acceptable compromise. We could establish a temporary compromise that gives each side about half of what it wants, and in the meantime we could all work on a /temp version of the article to hammer out something better. Everyking 18:45, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why half? That would make sense if each side were equal in size. A better system weights each side by how many adherents it has. dbenbenn | talk 19:31, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
And why do we adhere to different views? I suppose you know why I adhere to mine—if you don't, ask me and I'll explain—but I don't know why you adhere to yours. Could you explain your opinion, and then maybe we can understand each other better? Everyking 19:53, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There's reams and reams and reams of discussion about why people want this article to look differently to how you want it to look, Everyking. If you don't understand other people's opinions on this, it's not for a lack of trying on our part. It seems to me that in all likelihood, there is no 'mutually acceptable' compromise - you have, after all, continually reverted each and every change you didn't like. Would you be happy if no-one else touched this article ever again, and it was only edited by you? That seems to be what you want. Worldtraveller 20:42, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No, certainly other people should edit the article. I haven't reverted each and every change I didn't like. Most of them, yes, I have reverted at some point or another if I thought they were harmful. But we should have a spirit of compromise here. I'm content to see some things removed; I can live with that. Why don't you do what I asked Dbenbenn to do above, and explain your stance? It would be helpful to talk not just about what is bad, but also about what is good, and what could be added. Everyking 21:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You thought edits were harmful - no-one else did. You ignored the consensus, treated the article as your own, and reverted repeatedly and without any spirit of compromise. I asked above what you think the consensus is regarding this article, but you haven't answered. I have described my opinion at more than sufficient length already, as have others - please read and fully consider the talk page, the failed nomination for featured status, the votes for deletion on sub-articles, the talk pages for the sub-articles, and the RfC against you.Worldtraveller 22:11, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm floored. I thought some people wanted to remove maybe 25% of the content or something like that. But it turns out you want to remove 80-90%? Forgive me for saying so, but that is simply insane. Everyking 19:36, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Why is it insane? Half of the information on these pages is redundant -- I removed identical accounts of the SNL incident from three pages (leaving it on Ashlee Simpson, where I thought it belonged). The promotion/publicity stuff that used to be here was identical to the material in the sub-article -- it makes no sense to spin off a sub-article if you're still going to have a huge section on the main page.
Everyking, you asked me whether it was everyone else or just you. I wish you'd listened to my answer, because I honestly do sympathize with your position, but please -- you're reminding me, at this point, of the juryman who never met eleven such obstinate fellows in his life.
Under the edit boxes, it says If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. I think this is something you're going to have to keep in mind -- I know it must be frustrating, but at this point the consensus is against you and you're really going to have to roll with it. Madame Sosostris 19:42, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
See, this is exactly what I was talking about. What on earth is the point of having three long articles on the singles if you're just going to dump the same information on the main page? That's what the sub-articles are for. At this point, you're making things unnecessarily complex and redundant. Madame Sosostris 19:50, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Consensus? There's a consensus to delete all the info on the "other songs"? A consensus to delete nearly all of the review info? A consensus to remove most of the about the album and making of the album info? No, I don't think there is. I think there is a broad consensus that the article should be trimmed somewhat. That does not mean there is consensus to reduce it to stub length. Everyking 20:04, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I disagree, Everyking. It appears to me that a great many people believe the shorter version of the article to be perfectly adequate; you seem to be the only one who truly supports the inclusion of all this information (including the redundant material).
I also don't think it's necessary to exaggerate the situation. Nobody is reducing the article "to stub length." A stub is a few sentences long. The short version of this article is still larger than some articles on notable political figures, and we have more material on this one mid-range pop starlet than we do on people who have started wars and founded countries. She's notable, but she's not this notable. Just because the information exists does not mean it needs to exist on Wikipedia. Madame Sosostris 20:58, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think people just want the article to be a sensible size and not contain trivia of interest only to devoted fans. Trouble is, Everyking, you've obstructed so many well-intended edits and shown so little willingness to compromise that people get frustrated, and probably go too far in the other direction because it gets so tiresome watching sensible editing get vandalised again and again and again by someone who thinks the article is theirs only to protect and cherish. Still, if the two extremes of opinion are your version of the article and the most trimmed version, then a compromise might approximate to how it looked after my re-write. How does that sound? I still thought my version could be tightened up a lot more, people did more work on it but it only lasted a few hours before you reverted mine and all subsequent changes, once again completely flying in the face of consensus. Worldtraveller 21:10, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The information on the individual tracks must be the article. The fact that it's gone makes me feel like I could have a heart attack. Propose a concession I can make that will enable that to be restored. Everyking 21:55, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
One sentence per track sounds good, with links to the articles on the singles. I tried doing that earlier, but since I'm not a fan of Ashlee, I only had your version to work from, and you didn't include descriptive sentences for some of the tracks. --Carnildo 06:12, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent versions

I'm seeing much higher quality edits in recent versions. The article is beginning to look more like something that could be featured. Thanks. I'll step in here and revert an attempt to restore the old, longwinded stuff. Take this as a vote in favor. Keep up the good work. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 21:14, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thank God you're only doing this to an article about an Ashlee Simpson album and not to something that has serious importance. Everyking 21:55, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It has taken you long enough to concede that this article is a bit of fan fluff. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:18, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It's a cultural topic of niche significance. If edit warring here keeps you from edit warring over something more important, that's good. Ideally, though, you wouldn't edit war anywhere and would just respect the value of information. Everyking 22:23, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You cannot accuse me of edit warring because I never, ever edit war, and I certainly have not come close to edit warring on this article. I could get rather angry about this, actually, but I won't make an issue out of it unless you repeat your false accusation. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:39, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Normally you're fairly moderate about it, although today it seems you've become more aggressive. Everyking 22:40, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Before you continue along this line of argument, let me just point out that I have made precisely three edits to the article in the past week, whereas you have made six edits today alone. I demand that you cease your disgraceful and false accusations of edit warring. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:12, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

And I quote: I'll step in here and revert an attempt to restore the old, longwinded stuff. But OK, if you promise to never revert again, then I in turn will drop my accusation of edit warring. Everyking 23:18, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why don't you promise to never revert again and meet the text as shown on every edit page, and as already pointed out to you: If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. I don't know how the rest of us can make you understand this—this is not your article to unilaterally own. —Neuropedia 23:42, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

Again with the false accusations and unreasonable demands. Just stop. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:26, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Recent edit summary spotted on User talk:Everyking:

  • RickK (Talk) (You've reverted Pieces of Me 3 times in 24 hours. Please don't do it again or I'll have to block you.)

Everyking is the edit warrior here. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:37, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander ... —Neuropedia 23:43, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

Here's an idea

Not sure where else to put this. Would it be possible to merge/condense the articles for Shadow (song), La La (song), and Pieces of Me into one article -- say, Autobiography singles? That strikes me as a decent sort of compromise -- obviously those articles aren't going to go away, but having one page would make things a bit less unwieldy here in the Ashlee Simpson Universe.

Sure its possible, but I don't see the reason for it. Those articles are fine as they are. No need to over-condense. Also, they are better as they are for search reasons. The Steve 22:05, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with those articles existing. Songs do deserve their own articles, they just need to be readable. Rhobite 22:06, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
I really don't think it would be a good idea to merge the song articles, now that each has been given separate publication. iMeowbot~Mw 22:39, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I object so strongly to what is being done to this and related articles that it hurts my soul just to look at them now. Therefore I am removing this article from my watchlist. I hope that someone else will take up the task of trying to restore the article to some level of quality. I may resume editing it in the future, once emotions have settled. Everyking 05:27, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Personally, The Holocaust hurts my soul. Thinking of my grandfather's last days in the hospice as he lied in a coma hurts my soul. The massive disparity inherent in modern capitalist societies hurts my soul. At the moment, my soul is completely ambivalent when I read Ashlee Simpson related articles. ElBenevolente 07:25, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Then you can't possibly have the right sort of soul to appreciate the goddess that is Ashlee and you should cease editing articles related to her. Personally, my soul is totally unmoved by The Holocaust. I mean, that happened so long before my birth that most of the people affected would be dead by now even if they hadn't been killed.  The Steve  08:19, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
Personally, I'd tread very lightly when employing irony while talking about the Holocaust. --Calton 08:32, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I hope that someone else will take up the task of trying to restore the article to some level of quality. See, you have it precisely backwards: the problem was any outside attempts to bring it to some level of quality was unilaterally rebuffed by you in favor of a bloated POV shrine to Ashlee. There never really was "some level of quality" to be restored to.
I may resume editing it in the future, once emotions have settled. Sound advice, but I suspect you haven't figured out whose emotions need settling.
--Calton 08:32, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Maybe that was a little over the top, but there's really no need to rub it in. If he keeps his word and doesn't fill up the articles with fluff again, there's no reason for anyone to continue with the barbs. iMeowbot~Mw 09:12, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
What is it with you? Don't continue the barbs...as long as he doesn't fill up the articles with fluff again? Did you just miss that completely, or what? Everyking 11:42, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Nothing was missed. Your editing of the Ashlee Simpson articles has been atrocious, but that doesn't mean you are a bad person. iMeowbot~Mw 11:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Are you trying to goad me into another fight? I'm not going to revert again; I'm done with it. My editing has consisted of adding content. Your editing has consisted of deleting content. Your editing has not only been atrocious, it has been characterized by persistent bullying and harassment designed to force me away from the subject, which has now been successful. Everyking 12:17, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Assume good faith. Also, refer to a comment of Dr Zen's regarding what is editing; editing is not merely the addition or deletion of content, but the shaping of it. That's why it's called editing. Johnleemk | Talk 11:43, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

If the article on the album is trimmed to a reasonable length I see no reason why we should not merge and redirect the singles. People wanting to know about Pieces of Me, for instance, would benefit somewhat from the added context of reading about it in the context of the album, and people wanting to know about the album's most notable tracks would not have to go off to look at the articles for the individual singles. Unless singles stand out so strongly that they probably deserve an article of their own (Good Vibrations, Purple Haze, Smells Like Teenage Spirit, etc) I favor covering them under the album--this applies especially to recent singles, in view of the decline of the single. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:05, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The album is what sold well in the US, but the singles (which in this case are more like EPs, but the labels are marketing them as singles) are what have sold well in other markets. These articles all still need much better organization (and a little less random revenge chopping), but I think if the releases are covered correctly they won't be a problem. iMeowbot~Mw 11:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Which other markets? Canada, UK? Album sales in those countries are also buoyant while singles sales are at an all time low. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 12:15, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wanted: Summaries

The article needs single-line descriptions of the tracks "Love makes the world go round", "Better off", "Unreachable", "Giving it all away" to go with the existing ones. --Carnildo 07:56, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It used to have a bit of info on each track. Go through the history. Everyking 07:59, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Those were the ones that just had quotes describing the type of music, rather than descriptions of the content of the songs. --Carnildo 08:55, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure there's much difference there. Also, describing music tends to be a rather difficult and subjective thing to do; that's why I leaned heavily on critical quotes when I originally wrote all that, because that's NPOV and verifiable. Everyking 08:58, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To fill in the blanks:
Autobiography opens the album with retro instrumentation and dark chords, the lyrics evoking difficult times ("Got bruises on my heart") moderated with optimism ("Right now I'm solo, but that will be changing eventually"). "Pieces of Me" follows with a simple acoustic guitar accompaniment to a tale of happiness with an understanding lover, while gradually building into full pop instrumentation.
"Shadow" is a slower, soul-tinged tune in which Simpson recounts playing a lesser role to her sister as a child, becoming free to pursue her own dreams as she grew older. A driving beat and bright guitar licks back "La La", a playful song filled with innuendo. The softer "Love Makes the World Go Around" describes the disappointment of an ending relationship, with "I guess promises are better left unsaid."
"Better Off" is a song of ambivalence about a relationship. She describes insecurity ("don't want to lose what I've found"), but on balance she is "better off in every way". The slow rocker "Love Me for Me" is filled with contradictory feelings in a new relationship: "Stay here, get out." The synth-driven "Surrender" follows with Simpson consenting to a breakup. "Don't you know you're only wasting time", she sings; by stalling "you make your misery my company."
"Unreachable" layers a plodding piano line and vintage Chamberlin sounds over regrets in rushing into a relationship. "Nothing New" conveys impatience with stagnation atop a steady beat and effect-layered guitars. The jangling "Give it all Away" is an encouragement to stand on one's own feet: "open your eyes and find yourself", Simpson urges. The album winds down with "Undiscovered", pondering what might have been in a lost pairing.
iMeowbot~Mw 12:13, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

making the album

The three sentences now under "promotion and publicity" have little to do with promotion and publicity. They used to be part of the "making of the album" section, where they were appropriate. Also, some of the real promotion/publicity content will probably have to be merged back soon, for a reason that I presume is obvious. Can we please restore that section, along with some of the information it formerly contained? The making of any notable album is worth a summary. If acceptable, we can discuss what to restore here first if anyone disagrees with restoring the full old version of the section. Everyking 10:23, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, if nobody replies to me, I guess I'll assume there's no objections. I'll give it a while longer to make sure no one has any, though. Everyking 02:57, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Most of the "making the album" section covered her making the album on her television show, which means it is in fact very strongly related to promotion and publicity. The making of her album should be discussed on the article for the television show...It probably doesn't belong here. →Reene✉ 05:48, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

No, some of it did, but the most important parts didn't. What do you say we restore just the parts that don't mention the TV show? It wouldn't make much sense to talk about the making the album in the article about the TV show, except for those aspects that were actually seen on the show. There's a lot more we can say that we can derive from interviews and such, unrelated to the reality show. I think that's perfectly good information, but I don't mind trimming or reworking it. Everyking 05:59, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As iMeowbot has pointed out, orchestrated responses to questions about her music aren't really adding anything aside from insight into her publicists' head. Is there anything that is actually unusual or strange or notable about the making of the album? The only thing I can think of is mentioning that its progress was shown on her television program. That sort of fits right into the publicity section nicely as it is. Mind pasting what you had in mind here so it can be looked at and possibly written into something that flows nicely before it is inserted into the article? →Reene✉ 06:07, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)
The "unusual" parts aren't unique to this album. They are part of the John Shanks formula, and apply equally, for example, to similar Duff, Clarkson, Anastacia etc. tracks. The results can be impressive, but they should be discussed in the Shanks article, not so much here. iMeowbot~Mw

This is what was written before, with the image omitted:

In a television interview on The Late Late Show with Craig Kilborn in November 2003, Simpson said that she had been working on her album for about a year before that point, and that the process had been getting more serious for about three months. [1] Later, in a 2004 interview, Simpson said that at first record labels would not meet with her. As she described it, "people would be like, 'Oh, she just wants to be like her sister'." For her part, Simpson said that she did not want to meet with Jessica's record label (Columbia): "I wanted to be signed because of my music". She eventually signed with Geffen instead: "You find the people who believe in you—and it works."6 At the beginning of The Ashlee Simpson Show, Simpson is shown signing the record deal (which also occurred about three months before November 2003, according to the Late Late Show interview).
Simpson initially did not want to do the reality show, she has said, but was persuaded by her father and manager, Joe Simpson, when he said that they would make it about her album and the music: "...I thought that was kind of cool. You're actually seeing a deeper look into how this album got made."6 She also wanted to distinguish herself from her sister by showing their differences, including their different musical styles and tastes. In episode one of the show, some of the early stages of songwriting are seen, and in episode two, Simpson records some early demos of songs; she is seen having trouble singing one song, "Fly Away", which did not make it onto the album. (Other early songs that failed to make it onto the album, at least under the known titles, were mentioned in the November 2003 Late Late Show interview: "Sold Me Out" and "Hurt for You".) But Schur "wasn't feeling the demos", as she says, and he wanted her to work with other people; in episode three she meets with several of them: John Feldmann, Guy Chambers, and the producing team The Matrix. Later in the same episode, she begins to work with John Shanks, who became the producer of her album.
The recording of the song "Surrender" features in this episode, as she works with Shanks; she says that it was written in only about two hours. Later, Simpson becomes upset when she thinks Schur wants the song to be more pop-sounding—she is told that Schur thinks she should sound "prettier", although at the same time she is told that it is "probably good" that Schur compared the song to the music of the band Garbage. After she and her father discuss it with Schur, things are worked out; Schur also says that the song reminds him of the band Hole, another rock band with a female vocalist—"it reminds me of Courtney Love on Celebrity Skin", he elaborates.
The recording of "Pieces of Me" is included in episode four of The Ashlee Simpson Show; because this episode focuses on Simpson's relationship with Cabrera, the recording of the song ties in to her personal life. "Shadow" is introduced at the beginning of episode five, when she talks with John Shanks about the song and then begins singing it while Shanks plays guitar; this is followed by a montage of video clips from Simpson's childhood.
Simpson has said of making the album: "It's a lot of work. From finding the right label to the actual recording, it took about nine months, then it was followed by the publicity work."2 In an extensive list of thank-yous in the album's liner notes, Simpson includes Benji and Joel Madden of the band Good Charlotte; she worked with them on a song that did not make it onto the album. [2]
Simpson's photoshoot for the album's cover and liner notes booklet features at the beginning of episode seven of the show. Many of the pictures, such as the one used for the front cover of the album, show Simpson in a dark setting, with graffiti-style writing scrawled on the wall behind her. In other pictures from this photoshoot, found inside the CD booklet, Simpson poses standing with a microphone in front of a white background. The album's photography is credited to Mark Liddell, and its design is credited to Soap Design Co.

Feel free to rewrite that here (or in the article) and see if you can come up with something you like more. Keep in mind that when you're writing an encyclopedia article, the goal is to inform; it's irrelevant whether you might find the information boring. If it's relevant to the subject and tells us something useful about it, then we should have it. Everyking 06:20, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, what do you say we go about it piece by piece? Are there any objections to restoring just the first paragraph of the section? Everyking 09:06, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, the section needs re-writing and condensing, not simple restoration of text that's been removed. Worldtraveller 09:28, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Shall I attempt to rewrite it, then, or would you like to try? Everyking 09:35, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Much of that belongs in the article about the show, as I said before. Information about talk show appearances can be summarized if you insist on their inclusion, perhaps with one or two vital quotes included. I also don't think the photoshoot information is that vital to the article, particularly in concerns to this section. →Reene✉ 10:00, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)

Well, OK, I think it is, but I'll concede the point, at least for now. What if I could cut this section down to maybe 60% of the size it had been in the old version? Do you think that'd be enough? I don't really feel like trying to rewrite it now—it's extremely difficult for me to do rewrites when I believe all or nearly all of the information is good, because, I mean, how can I bear to cut any of it?—but I will try my hand at it at some point soon, if you'll at least give it consideration. Everyking 10:03, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rewritten section

Simpson signed with Geffen Records in 2003. In a 2004 interview, she said that at first, when she was seeking a recording contract, record labels would not meet with her. As she described it, "people would be like, 'Oh, she just wants to be like her sister'." For her part, Simpson said that she did not want to meet with Jessica's record label (Columbia): "I wanted to be signed because of my music". She eventually signed with Geffen instead: "You find the people who believe in you—and it works."6

Simpson initially did not want to do the reality show, she has said, but was persuaded by her father and manager, Joe Simpson, when he said that they would make it about her album and the music: "...I thought that was kind of cool. You're actually seeing a deeper look into how this album got made."6 She also wanted to distinguish herself from her sister by showing their differences, including their different musical styles and tastes. In episode one of the show, some of the early stages of songwriting are seen, and she is seen working with Steve Fox and Stan Frazier. In episode two, she records some early demos of songs; she is seen having trouble singing one song, "Fly Away", which did not make it onto the album. But Schur did not like the demos and wanted her to work with other people; in episode three she meets with several of them: John Feldmann, Guy Chambers, and the producing team The Matrix. Later in the same episode, she begins to work with John Shanks, who became the producer of her album, and in episode four she is seen working with Kara DioGuardi as well, on "Pieces of Me".

Simpson has said of making the album: "It's a lot of work. From finding the right label to the actual recording, it took about nine months, then it was followed by the publicity work."2 In an extensive list of thank-yous in the album's liner notes, Simpson includes Benji and Joel Madden of the band Good Charlotte; she worked with them on a song that did not make it onto the album. [3]

Simpson's photoshoot for the album's cover and liner notes booklet features at the beginning of episode seven of the reality show. Many of the pictures, such as the one used for the front cover of the album, show Simpson in a dark setting, with graffiti-style writing scrawled on the wall behind her. In other pictures from this photoshoot, found inside the CD booklet, Simpson poses standing with a microphone in front of a white background. The album's photography is credited to Mark Liddell, and its design is credited to Soap Design Co.

Is this acceptable for the section? It could probably use some tweaks, but is it more or less OK? Everyking 07:41, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Any thoughts, comments? I'll give it a while longer and then add the rewrite if it doesn't get any objections. Everyking 16:27, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would remove this section entirely: Many of the pictures, such as the one used for the front cover of the album, show Simpson in a dark setting, with graffiti-style writing scrawled on the wall behind her. In other pictures from this photoshoot, found inside the CD booklet, Simpson poses standing with a microphone in front of a white background. It is identical to a similar section in The Ashley Simpson Show. The single sentence synopses of each episode are fine by me, although I would put them all together. There are also 5 quotes by Simpson in this section. Consider removing one.  The Steve  19:30, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)

Well, it seems to me that the pictures pertain directly to the album in an important way. So I'd really like to include that. Everyking 23:46, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Certainly. This is what you leave in: Simpson's photoshoot for the album's cover and liner notes booklet features at the beginning of episode seven of the reality show. The album's photography is credited to Mark Liddell, and its design is credited to Soap Design Co. If someone wants more detail on episode 7 of The Ashlee Simpson Show, they can look there.
What's really important is describing the photographs so the reader can get a feel for the style of the album. The reality show stuff is secondary and can be removed if necessary. Everyking 04:39, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Meowbot, the Shadow video didn't premiere on Sept. 20; it premiered about a week earlier, but the table makes it seem like she was there for the premiere. Also, I'd like notes added in the cases where we know the program wasn't live and the air date is different from the taping date. Everyking 04:43, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The table is labeled "Television appearances" and not "premieres", so that's not misinforming. How about http://absolutetrl.net to the external links so people who want all the gory TRL details know where to find them? If we start getting into TRL minutiae here, you know what the reaction's going to be like :/
On the live/taped stuff, sure, but tomorrow. iMeowbot~Mw 06:28, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

No, I meant it says "Shadow (video)" to the side, which to me implies a premiere. And is my Making of the album info all right with you? Everyking 06:31, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, when I next get a chance I'll add in the rewritten making of the album section, presuming nobody objects before then. I also need to correct the error that attributes the press release quote to Joe and not to Ashlee (that's a hint—feel free to beat me to it). Everyking 13:39, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Merge from Autobiography promotion and publicity

Per the VfD on Autobiography promotion and publicity, I merged that page here [4]. Anyone with more stamina than I is invited to rework or trim that section to fit into the article better. dbenbenn | talk 02:14, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, much as I hate it, that was the vote. Apparently we can have articles on every Pokemon character but not an article on promotion for a multi-platinum album. Go figure. Well, I've made some revisions, hopefully they aren't controversial. I didn't get any objections to the "making" section, so I added that, and I made a few other changes which probably won't be a big deal. I didn't think we needed the Metacritic review, for example. I fixed the quote incorrectly attributed to Joe. I removed "Shadow (video)" from the promotion table, since she wasn't there to introduce it. Removed the second table from the sales section; that would probably be the most bold of the changes, but since we had a subarticle on sales which survived VfD, I believe the table should be there and the sales section here should be as succinct as possible. Fixed "Give it all away" --> "Giving It All Away".
Anyway, I'd like us to consider adding back some of the critical assessments of the individual tracks. Meowbot's summaries are bold, and actually quite well-written, but I feel they should be supplemented with critical descriptions. Everyking 05:45, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Could I ask Blankfaze to explain his removals? Since we no longer have a promotion subarticle, we should be careful about trimming the content in that section. I would also like to see one of the two sales charts included here, although I can live without it. Everyking 22:21, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Tables

Why is there both a table of peak chart positions and a list of them in the text? Do we need a week by week table of US and Canada chart positions? And do we really need a list of all her TV appearances? I think these tables should all be removed - anyone agree or disagree? They really harm the visual appearance of the article apart from anything else. Worldtraveller 16:19, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The remaining table gives an exhaustive week-by-week accounting of US and Canadian chart positions for no good reason, but at least it's small. The text deals with North American unit sales and chart positions in other countries, so it's not duplication. The week-by-week sales table should not be restored because it is misleading through omission. iMeowbot~Mw 16:35, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Oh, I see that peak chart positions were still there. I've removed that table as entirely redundant with the text. iMeowbot~Mw 16:40, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I don't think we need a list of TV appearances. That's too icky, in my opinion, and doesn't provide much return on investment of the space. Johnleemk | Talk 13:36, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not icky. Lots of return. Everyking 14:18, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes icky. No return. Worldtraveller 19:28, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Actually I'll try to make a more sophisticated argument :) A list of TV appearances is really only of interest to hard core fans, and thus should not be in an encyclopaedia. Any really notable TV appearances should be mentioned, but we really don't need to know every time she's appeared on TV. The Who once packed a drum kit so full of explosives for a dramatic finale that it completely blew itself up, to the horror of the band. That made a very notable TV appearance. They appeared probably hundreds of other times, but it would not be encyclopaedic to have a list of them all because the vast majority were routine, non-notable TV appearances. I have appeared several times on a very notable UK TV program, but if anyone were to make a wikipedia entry for me with a list of my appearances, I'd be the first to VfD it :) TV appearance does not equal notable, and I think the table should be removed. Worldtraveller 19:28, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hold on a minute. Why were you on TV? Ashlee Simpson was on TV because she's a famous celebrity and musical artist known to many millions of people and has sold millions of albums. Her appearances on TV are notable simply by virtue of the fact that so many people have seen them and so many people care about them. If you've even got 10% of her importance, not only should you have an article, but I feel a bit humbled to be talking to you. Everyking 19:39, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It's all right - no need to kow tow, I'm very modest about it :) I am known to millions of people - I have been recognised in the street. I wouldn't recognise Ashlee Simpson in the street, so perhaps I'm even more 'important' than she is :) Point is, a list of anyone's TV appearances, no matter how famous they are, is not very interesting or encyclopaedic. Worldtraveller 22:01, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Known to millions? You ought to have something better to do than this, then. I think the list is quite interesting and totally encyclopedic by Wikipedia's definition. Everyking 22:14, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I think the list should be cut down to just the most important appearances. --Carnildo 19:23, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Everyking Update

  • 01:44, 24 Jan 2005 Everyking leaves a note on Talk:Autobiography sales and chart positions (which is, I note, a redirect page now), reading Per the VfD vote, I will restore the article soon unless there's an objection. He receives no response.
2.2) For a period of one year, Everyking is prohibited from reverting articles relating to Ashlee Simpson except in cases of clear and obvious vandalism (as per definition at Wikipedia:Vandalism), with penalties as per the Wikipedia:Three revert rule. What constitutes a revert shall be left up to adminstrators' discretion.
Passed 5-1.
  • 18:36, 24 Jan 2005 Everyking reverts the redirect of Autobiography sales and chart positions, with the comment "restoring the article, since there were no objections on talk. also adding a bit of uk info"

Fourteen hours from decision to violation. That boy works fast. --Calton 16:50, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

More antics:

Now I'm not saying that User:80.100.22.71 is Everyking -- it could be someone else stirring up trouble -- but it looks awfully suspicious. --Carnildo 18:52, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/202.162.57.82:
For both these anon proxies, these are the only edits they made. iMeowbot~Mw 18:59, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)
80.100.22.71 resolves to an address in the Netherlands - looks like a random passerby just stirring things up. Worldtraveller 14:18, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Integrating old info

I'd like to integrate some of the old info on the individual songs—one sentence critical comments and Ashlee's own statements about them—together with Meowbot's personal descriptions of them. Are there any objections to doing this? Everyking 21:04, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Depends on how they're written as well as the NPOViness and value of the quotes. Most of them last time round were positive, so you'd either have to include a negative quote to balance things out, or not add them at all to avoid lengthening a still crufty (IMO) article. Johnleemk | Talk 11:11, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
A lot of the quotes were simply descriptive, or Simpson taking about their meanings. Do you object to those? If I include a positive critical quote, then I will include a negative one to balance it. And vice versa. And I know you think information is cruft, John, you don't have to keep reiterating that. Everyking 11:55, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Unless they said it impeccably, I don't think the quotes (at least in full sentences) should be included. Instead you can summarise them, i.e. "Describing 'Unreachable', Simpson called it..." or "Rolling Stone described "La La" as..." And there's a difference between information and cruft. Information informs and enhances one's understanding. Data with no meaning attached or artificially extrapolated data is cruft (for example, there is no point in saying, i.e. "As a music album, all the songs on Autobiography contained chords" (not that that sort of blatant cruft is in the article). Johnleemk | Talk 12:08, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I've never tried to add anything that didn't enhance one's understanding. Everyking 12:19, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
But you have to agree that most people disagree with you on what enhances the reader's understanding and what's only of interest to hardcore fans. Why do you want to re-add information that's been taken out? It's been removed as part of the normal editing process, has it not? It sounds to me like you're trying to get everyone to endorse what is effectively a revert to your preferred version. Worldtraveller 14:18, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Most people don't disagree with me on that. It's just that I'm in the unfortunate position of having to defend the standard view of Wikipedia on a topic that apparently is not a popular one among Wikipedians. On more popular topics, deletionism like this would mean mass fury. Besides, even among deletionists here, there has not been any consensus on anything except that the old version of the article needed a bit of trimming. There was certainly no consensus to reduce it to stub length. That is why I'm going point-by-point, trying to see what people will agree to and what they will not. Everyking 16:27, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The point is, I think it should be very clear by now that the consensus was strongly against your preferred version of the article, as well as your endless reversions of attempts to change it. Now you seem to be trying to restore your version in little bits, assuming that people will agree to each successive little bit. Worldtraveller 19:20, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
No, the point is what I said above. Everyking 19:21, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Please restore the table. There was no consensus to remove it. Everyking 21:17, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

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