User talk:Benfaremo

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January 2010

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. When you make a change to an article, please provide an edit summary for your edits. Doing so helps everyone to understand the intention of your edit. It is also useful when reading the edit history of the page. Thank you. Raywil (talk) 23:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

New section

Hello, you should know that your personal translation and interpretation of sources is not acceptable. Simply disregarding the opinions of well-known and respected historians by declaring them "ungrounded" isn't going to help you out - and deleting them is even worse, since that is considered the suppression of information. I have cited several well-known authorities on the Byzantine Empire who beg to differ with your version. Thus, I have reverted your revert, since it is not only contentious but it is replete with POV language and personal interpretations. I think my version is a compromise - there is as much evidence that Gregory was an Armenian as he was an Iberian.

Should you choose not to heed my words, please be aware that constantly deleting reliable sources and inserting your intreprations are actionable offenses which administrators here do not take kindly to. We can use the talk page to discuss any problems you see in the current version and come to a consensus. Thank you. Regards, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 20:23, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

In addition, you need to understand that Iberia (theme) does not equate to Georgia, nor does an Iberian (as in someone from the theme) translate to Georgian.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 20:38, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Dear Bagramyanjan and Eupatorjan, first of all thanks for your talk and now let me show groundlessness of your pretensions.

• Firstly, exactly you are deleting the reliable sources (including the primary one, i.e. the Typikon). I just provided the disproving evidences of some information, leaving them too in the article. But you constantly delete the sources added by me.
• it is not acceptable to restrict the use of personal verifiable English translations of original excerpts which are supported with the academic research and the Russian academic translation of the same original. Following such restriction, in english wiki one should use just English-language sources, which is nonsense. In the article, before my corrections, there were several non-English sources, not protested by you. Even more, you have just added the reference on the note from the armenian publication [i.e. Matthew of Edessa (1973). Մատթեոս Ուռհայեցի`Ժամանակնագրություն (The Chronicle of Matthew of Edessa). Trans. and comm. Hrach Bartikyan. Yerevan: Hayastan Publishing. pp. 97, 326, note 43.].
• Let me note that the A. Shanidze in "The Georgian Monastery in Bulgaria and its Typikon: the Georgian Edition of the Typikon"," Works 9 (1986), Tbilisi: Metsniereba.), based on the comparative study of the Georgian and Greek versions of the Typikon and careful translation, well establishes the Georgian ethnicity of Gregory and the monks. See e.g. the pp. 29, 371-373. This publication contains the Russian translations of the excerpts I provided and you deleted.
• The fact that the Bachkovo Monastery (Petritsoni) was established as a Georgian is supported not only by the Georgian-Greek bilingual typikon (i.e. the monastery regulations), but also with the same period Georgian inscriptions of the frescos, cupola cross and the icon (the images will be provided later, but probably you will try to remove). You have not protested the lack of this information in the article about the Monastery and even deleted it added by me with references, but you were happy to restore the mentioning of the Armenian Gospel, which was probably once preserved in the Petritsoni library, that contained many other books in different languages. At the same time you deleted the referenced information about the Typikon, which is really crucial to study the history of the Monastery and its inhabitants. The deletion of the information about the Armenian Gospel was grounded, since the article is not a catalogue of a library to mention any single sample of it.
• You deleted the references on the Ostrogorsky and Obolensky papers (both in English and were supportive to Georgian ethnicity of Gregory). Both are renowned scientists and their sources were relevant to the topic.
• Let me remind you, that I did not talk about the political status of Iberia (theme). But I was talking about the ethnicity of Gregory the son of Bakurian and the monks, which is clearly stated by Gregory himself. Old Georgian ნათესავით ქართველი (natesavit kartveli) and გუარად ქართველი (guarad kartveli) as Gregory refers himself and the monks of Petritsoni, both mean "of Georgian stock/kin" (ruling out at the same time the non-ethnic Georgians, even if they are the "Georgian by faith" i.e. სჯულით ქართველი - sjulit kartveli). Need to check? Please, here are couple references:
  • ნათესავი (natesavi): stock/kin etc. [1]
  • გუარი (guari): 1. stock, family, kin, ethnicity. 2. type. See A. Shanidze (1986) p. 150. გუარად ქართველი (guarad kartveli) - of the Georgian stock/ethnicity
  • ქართველი (kartveli): the Georgian person [2]

For these well-established meanings I can provide, of course, enough additional reliable references. But you did not even ask, just deleted.

Let's cooperate to clean the wiki from incorrect material :)

--Benfaremo (talk) 02:48, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

In addition, I will find the time to restore the deleted information with more rigorous support, but, please, be careful when deciding to delete them. I agree that discussion page should be used to find the consensus. Ciao.

-- Benfaremo (talk) 03:29, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The concerns that Eupator and I have expressed stem from how confidently you declare that this personage was of Georgian identity. The scholars that I cited on the page, Hrach Bartikyan, Alexander Kazhdan, Cyril Toumanoff, Nina G. Garsoian (of Columbia University) and Viada Arutyunova-Fidanyan, all experts of Byzantium and the Caucasus, state that Gregory was a Chalcedonian Armenian or express caution to assign him an ethnic identity (due to the bewildering array of conflicting sources). As Arutyunova-Fidanyan, Kazhdan, and Garsoian have noted in form or another, "Iberian" does not necessarily mean "one who is of Georgian descent" but has come to denote those individuals living in Iberia, including Armenians in the Armeno-Georgian marchlands who were of Chalcedonian stock. Garsoian briefly discusses this issue here (pages 88-89, including notes), [3]. Elsewhere, while the source does mention Matthew of Edessa, I am merely citing Bartikyan's own note, who explicitly states that while one of the Gregory's inscriptions was in Greek, it was done in the Armenian language.

I don't want to be too frank, but I attach far greater significance to their opinions, than I do to your personal translation and interpretation of the original Georgian source. Thus, simply translating the word as "Georgian" is insufficient, and no interpretation on your part, that is you as an editor, is permissible on Wikipedia. The above-mentioned scholars have doubtless read those documents and so you cannot simply disregard their opinions by constantly arguing that they are "groundless". Please read up on Wikipedia:Reliable sources, Wikipedia:No original research, and Wikipedia:Third-party sources to understand these core editing concepts. If several of the sources which I deleted are pertinent to the article, I don't have objections to reintegrating them into the article. However, it's clear that there is a divide among scholars - some assign him an Armenian identity, others a Georgian, whereas some say it's too close to call. It might not be satisfactory for everyone but I think it's a compromise most can agree to, without wholly rejecting or accepting this or that opinion. The divide among scholars is too sharp to assert anything with definitiveness. Regards, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 04:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

If you have photos of the ossuary, I suggest you add them since they would show the only physical remains of the original structures. Also, how could that Armenian manuscript be from the 10th century when the monastery was only founded in the 11th? Meowy 00:36, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks

hi friend, thanks for writing "Laz grammar" article , i will translate it into Turkish and Laz language. --Kolxuri (talk) 00:54, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

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