User talk:Dalriata111

As with User:Murry1975, I have decided to remove most of the crap he has left on this talk page. I will be removing it also from any IP talk pages I've used.

I will be adding here the discussions we've had on various issues since he introduced himself to me by removing an edit I had made, with no explanation.

Here is where it seems to have started:

Ambiguity

[some background of edit summaries first]

From the article Higher diploma, in chronological order:

(cur | prev) 18:20, 9 August 2012‎ 173.93.239.247 (talk)‎ . . (4,382 bytes) (+45)‎ . . (undo)
(cur | prev) 04:54, 10 August 2012‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (4,365 bytes) (-17)‎ . . (as per WP:IMOS) (undo)
(cur | prev) 22:36, 15 August 2012‎ 173.93.239.247 (talk)‎ . . (4,382 bytes) (+17)‎ . . (Undid revision 506676792 : Specific country needs inambiguous title. Political ideals are irrelevant. Also restored other edits previous editor carelessly removed.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:03, 16 August 2012‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (4,365 bytes) (-17)‎ . . (Reverted 1 edit by 173.93.239.247 (talk) identified as vandalism to last revision by Murry1975. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:05, 16 August 2012‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (4,367 bytes) (+2)‎ . . (null edit meant to rollback good faith not vandalism. See WP:IMOS for relevance) (undo)

Note that there is no edit comment from Murry1975, other than to first suggest vandalism, and then to correct to 'good faith'.

I attempted a discussion on his talk page shortly after his second undo:

Hey Murry,

Firstly, "unambiguous" was what I was going for in my edit summary - not "inambiguous"! Probably a typo!

Anyway, thank you for your second edit summary, in which you corrected from 'vandalism' to 'good faith': much appreciated. :)

On to the matter itself: Ireland is an island. It is also a name by which the governing authority refers to itself as. However, this causes a conflict. As a person who apparently holds logic in high esteem, I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. It is not clear, to many people throughout the world, what is meant by "Ireland". Unless you are from there (and even then, there can often be confusion), usually the context is not understood. I think in this case, whereby the subject of education is a governmental and state-specific, and whereby the system does not concern a wider jurisdiction of the whole of the island of Ireland, the more unambiguous title should be given to the country.

Otherwise, people (mostly people not from that region of the world) will make an incorrect assumption. A link to the more relevant article is not enough: I doubt most people would hover their mouse over the link or click on it to find out what "Ireland" is. After all, most people (think they) know, right? --173.93.239.247 (talk) 13:28, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers thanks for the message, but the list is of states, not islands or geographic regions, if the list combined these then yes there would be a need to do this. As you point out "whereby the subject of education is a governmental and state-specific" there should be no confusion. What incorrect assumption? The name of the state, long, short, and common is Ireland. There maybe an island with the same name but as it is not a list of islands there should be no confusion.

As for the rollback, using a tackpad, it doesnt do what I want always, was trying to agf-roll hit the wrong one. Murry1975 (talk) 14:00, 16 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at. I have a lot of experience with peoples' perceptions in this matter, and I can tell you that outside (and even within) the British Isles, people get confused and assume that "Ireland" applies to the whole of the island.

It is, of course, logical to assume that, and that was the purpose when the constitution of the Republic of Ireland was drawn up.

In that sense then, there will be an incorrect assumption made that the jurisdiction of the Republic reaches across the whole of the island of Ireland, which it obviously doesn't.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but the Republic of Ireland Act later provided for the use of Republic of Ireland in such situations whereby confusion may arise. The government of that territory uses the name Republic of Ireland in many of its internal and external communications and legal documents.

The use of "Ireland" to describe the Republic of Ireland isn't actually particularly commonly used in Northern Ireland. Not as commonly used in every-day speech as other names such as "the twenty-six counties" (often used by Republicans), "the Free State" still used by many people, including some Republicans, "the South" or "down South" used by many people across the spectrum. To many people in Northern Ireland, referring to "Ireland" as a state when standing in Ireland seems a bit strange. When abroad, people from Northern Ireland variously suggest they are from "Ireland" (meaning the island), "Northern Ireland", "Ulster" (a province in Ireland) or "the UK", depending on the context. In order to differentiate between people from Northern Ireland and people from "the South", many will use the name "Republic of Ireland".

Such a differentiation is needed when discussing the education system of the Republic, which differs somewhat from that of the rest of Ireland. --173.93.239.247 (talk) 20:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A few things the Republic of Ireland Act never has mentioned the need to use anything else as the name of the state in English other than Ireland. The Gobernment only refers to the state as either "The State" or "Ireland" in all legal documents. What ever a number of people, as you point out in this case, from Northern Ireland, refer to the state as can be seen as point of view. These issues and others relating to the name of the state have been discussed at both WP:IECOLL and WP:IMOS on many an occasion. I am well aware of some peoples distain that the state has the same name as the island, but the fact of the matter is it does. It is the states legal name, common name, long form name and short form name a fact that lends itself to the usage in most cases. Education is state based, the needed to disambiguate with the descripton, as it is needed for the article itself, would be purely POV. Murry1975 (talk) 10:05, 22 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um, what does IMOS indicate if someone was born in the Irish Free State? I updated Edna O'Brien's infobox. Quis separabit? 19:18, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Read the discussion Robert. We link the artcile on the state. Murry1975 (talk) 19:21, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles/Archive_5#Irish_free_state_Country_of_Birth.3F the link bud. Murry1975 (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

:::: I checked WP:IECOLL and WP:IMOS, and didn't see any reference to the IFS. If and when you are free and have the chance could you point it out. Thanks, Quis separabit? 19:32, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have linked to the discussion. Above. Cheers. Murry1975 (talk) 19:35, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for providing the specific hyperlink. I checked it out but don't find any formal or overwhelming WP:IMOS agreement, just an unofficial "Pax Hibernica". Maybe I missed something. Yours, Quis separabit? 19:38, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After Murry1975 attracted my attention to our previous discussion, I decided to make an addition. The following day, he deleted it.

For discussion sake: Your statement "What ever a number of people, as you point out in this case, from Northern Ireland, refer to the state as can be seen as point of view" is exactly my point - I do not use the term Ulster to describe Northern Ireland. Equally, I use the term 'Ireland' to describe the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, logically speaking, my point of view is consistent. Yours is not. Also, yours is every bit as much a 'point of view' as mine may be.

Furthermore, the government of the Republic of Ireland does NOT use ONLY "the State" or "Ireland" in all publications. See the following few online government publications:

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/nationalforestinventory/nationalforestinventorypublications/4330NFIResults.pdf

https://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/make-a-complaint/other-ombudsmans-offices-in-ireland/

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/I%20hold%20a%20valid%20Schengen%20Visa,%20do%20I%20need%20an%20Irish%20visa%20to%20come%20to%20the%20Republic%20of%20Ireland

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/I%20hold%20a%20valid%20UK%20Visa,%20do%20I%20need%20an%20Irish%20visa%20to%20travel%20to%20the%20Republic%20of%20Ireland

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Online%20Visa%20Application

I particularly like this one, as it's an essay by a Professor of Geography from UCD, hosted on the Republic's government website: http://www.gov.ie/en/essays/geography.html

The Republic of Ireland Act specifically provides for the name "Republic of Ireland" in section 2 of the paper, by the way.

Finally, just because the primary name the country chose for itself is 'Ireland', that doesn't preclude us from using the alternative 'Republic of Ireland', in order that the specific state is being referred to (and that there is indeed, in fact, a specific state within the island of Ireland). --75.182.54.240 (talk) 20:57, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion on the talk page Talk:National Day of Commemoration:

Reverts

Yet another appeal to user Murry1975 to discuss rather than attack.

Please stop reverting my edits without rationale. If you do not attempt to discuss the problem you have, then I cannot help you reach any kind of compromise or solution. As you have given me no such reason, my only recourse is to reinsert the edit I had made. I will stop re-adding my edit, once you have entered into objective, rational discussion, and stop throwing out insults.

Please abide.

(Dalriata111) --75.182.54.240 (talk) 20:23, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edited as per WP:IMOS. Murry1975 (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just for those who would like the guideline

"where the state forms a major component of the topic (e.g. on articles relating to states, politics or governance) where "Ireland" should be preferred and the island should be referred to as the "island of Ireland" or similar."

Aswell as per WP:BRD, after being revert, you two IPs are meant to start the discussion. Murry1975 (talk) 14:17, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So here goes. This commemoration takes place in the Republic of Ireland. Let's be clear on that, and let's ensure the readers know. So to cloud the issue by stating just Ireland is not good. IMOS is a guideline, not a rule to be slavishly adopted. You look as though you're engaging in s slow edit war. 86.23.56.107 (talk) 19:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, WP:BRD was agreed so as to avoid these stupid edit wars. The explanation provided above explains the rationale behind picking which term to put in an article. The article appears to be about the state (forming a major part of the topic) and there doesn't appear to be any potential confusion with the island or with Northern Ireland. What is your rationale for preferring "Rebublic of Ireland"? Your reason appears to be that you don't want to follow the guidelines because it is not a rule. Is there any other reason? Are you simply trying to "make a stand"? ---- HighKing⁺⁺ 21:23, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There have been a couple of other edits, over the months, that have been removed. I've not bothered to look through the history but, now that my curiosity is piqued, I might have a look at just how many of my contributions have been removed by this guy with no word of explanation.

He is the other main discussion or problem:

Couple of edits regarding Ireland and its territories

[Background]

(cur | prev) 00:31, 7 June 2014‎ 75.176.181.60 (talk)‎ . . (60,348 bytes) (+40)‎ . . (Specific territory and correction for specific wikilink) (undo)
(cur | prev) 06:17, 11 June 2014‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (60,301 bytes) (-40)‎ . . (Undid revision 611890015 by 75.176.181.60 (talk)as pr IMOS) (undo)
(cur | prev) 03:17, 12 June 2014‎ 75.176.181.60 (talk)‎ . . (60,341 bytes) (+40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612461309 by Murry1975 (talk) Wikilink points to disambiguation page. Republic of Ireland, specifically is what the stats are referring to. Need to ensure readers aren't confused.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 06:10, 12 June 2014‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (60,301 bytes) (-40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612583181 by 75.176.181.60 (talk)as per WP:IRE-IRL) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:58, 13 June 2014‎ 75.176.181.60 (talk)‎ . . (60,341 bytes) (+40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612596783 by Murry1975 (talk) Per discussion on your talk page.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 18:25, 13 June 2014‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (60,301 bytes) (-40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612769109 by 75.176.181.60 (talk)as per WP:IRE-IRL incorrect assumptions on tp do not trump guidelines) (undo)
(cur | prev) 00:15, 14 June 2014‎ 75.176.181.60 (talk)‎ . . (60,341 bytes) (+40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612797259 by Murry1975 (talk) No incorrect assumption: you didn't reply on your tp. Please offer alternative solution or stop undoing.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 06:00, 14 June 2014‎ Murry1975 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (60,301 bytes) (-40)‎ . . (Undid revision 612830479 by 75.176.181.60 (talk)) (undo)

Demographics of atheism. I've been 'bold' and reverted your edit. I gave a reason why in the edit comment thing: we need to ensure the readers aren't confused, as the statistics specifically concern the Republic of Ireland alone, and not the whole of the island, which is also called Ireland. Also, the link pointed to a disambiguation page, rather than the page on Religion in the Republic of Ireland.

As for the Counties of Ireland, as six counties are a part of the United Kingdom, this article must also belong as part of that category. That the other counties are there too, the reverse argument could be made regarding the Republic of Ireland versus Ireland (the island): 26 of the counties don't belong to Ireland (the Republic). I'd be interested to hear if you have any suggestions, if you still protest at the idea of including the article in both the Republic and UK categories. One possible compromise might be to exclude Northern Ireland from the article all together. There is an article already dedicated to Counties of Northern Ireland anyway, I believe. We could then rename the article Counties of the Republic of Ireland.

I apologise, as I'm not aware of the previous conversation you've suggested. That's not to say it didn't happen - I'm just not aware of it!

I've enrolled here recently, so I'm not sure this will show up. I've not logged in. --75.176.181.60 (talk) 03:30, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. You've undone my edits now three times. The first time, you offered rationale in your edit comment. I answered that by explaining here (and in my edit comment when I undid your edit) that there is clear ambiguity in this table: the territory which uses the name of the island (Republic of Ireland) is not the same as the territory which is the whole island. The table strongly suggested (before my edit) that the whole island follows the statistics listed. That is not the case. The statistics very definitely apply solely to the territory of the Republic of Ireland alone.

The wikilink also directed to a disambiguation page, rather than to the page relating to Religion in the Republic of Ireland.

The Manual of Style/Ireland-related articles page is, apparently, a set of guidelines. Here is what Wikipedia says about guidelines:

Guidelines are sets of best practices that are supported by consensus. Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.

So these guidelines suggest:

Use "Ireland" for the state except where the island of Ireland or Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context. In such circumstances use "Republic of Ireland"

So I've inadvertently followed the guidelines anyway: Northern Ireland is being discussed in the same context (as a part of the United Kingdom in this case).

I've also attempted to follow the Wikipedia guidelines for editing - a "bold --> discuss --> edit -->" cycle. However, so far, you've not followed that process yourself.

This will be my last edit to the article for a while. Of course, you will probably undo my edit again, but I have more important things to waste my time on! Following guidelines here on dispute resolution, I am taking a break from this specific article. Perhaps this will give you time to reflect and perhaps help me come to some kind of solution which we both feel will aid the Wikipedia site, and which we will both agree to.

I feel the article was misleading to readers, which is why I made the edit to begin with. Hopefully you can see your way to replying here in the next day or two? I will come back to the article at some point in the next few days probably. If my edits have been undone again, I will follow the guidelines and request an administrator to help out. Thanks.

--75.176.181.60 (talk) 00:56, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The ONLY mention of Ireland on that page is the state, so NI isnt being mentioned at all, yet alone in the same context, its a table of states so NI wouldnt be on it anyhow. Also sign in while editing.

I also notice you seem to edit UK instead of Britain/Great Britain in articles, because its the states name, dito for Ireland so we use that. If you cant see the double standard of your edits. Now if you wish we could bring this up at IMOS. Murry1975 (talk) 06:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for replying. It's a table of states, yes - so we would need to be unambiguous, to let the readers know that it's the state of Ireland specifically that the table is referring to. Many people I have met in my life who are confused because they think the whole of the island is a single country. The Wikipedia exists to enlighten people on facts, so we should surely endeavour to bring to them the information that there are two sovereign states currently in Ireland. Again, I think common sense should prevail here, as the guidelines suggest. Northern Ireland is mentioned in the context of the UK. Its statistics (although I haven't checked) would include Northern Ireland.

I have no idea what you think my other edits regarding the UK and the name of an island have to do with this. If anything, I'm being completely consistent with those edits by referring to a specific political entity, rather than an island. For example, Ireland & Britain are islands; the Republic of Ireland and the UK are sovereign states.

Anyway, have we any common ground here regarding this dispute? Perhaps we could move on from there. --75.176.181.60 (talk) 04:59, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ireland is the name of the state. If you want to misinform people of its name go somewhere else, the guideline exist to help, you edits exist to push your point of view. There is no mention of NI in the artilce, and its a list of states, if you have not constructive to add stop adding it. The name of the specific polical entity is Ireland, if you have a problem with that, as you seem to have, contact http://www.oireachtas.ie and ask them to change it. Murry1975 (talk) 12:18, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ireland is the name of the state, as chosen by the erstwhile leaders of that state some decades ago. If you read your history, you'll see that the state also provided for a slightly adjusted name "Republic of Ireland" (see the Republic of Ireland Act of 1948). This can be used perfectly legitimately by most clear-thinking people, in cases whereby there is ambiguity or there is a need to be specific.

I am not trying to "misinform people", and please don't tell me to "go somewhere else". You're starting to become derisive - you've already been quite dismissive.

As for "pushing a point of view", I am simply attempting to provide for clarity in an article which is clearly in need of some: when I read the article at first, it wasn't clear to me whether the statistics applied to the island or the state. Of course, it also subjects people to the awful reality that the Republic of Ireland might not be the only sovereign country in Ireland! But that's completely irrelevant. The relevant point is that we make people understand that the statistics refer to a specific political entity. Ireland is (undoubtedly purposefully, but again, that's not my fault and it's irrelevant to me) ambiguous as a name, considering the whole of the island shares that exact same name!

I could do without your sarcasm and your paranoia, to be honest. And your lack of assumption of good faith (yes - you've forced me to read up on some Wikipedia policies and guidelines!). I am trying to be constructive, but my efforts appear to be being blocked by someone whose feet seem stuck in the mud.

Once again, Northern Ireland is not mentioned by name, or individually. Neither are England, Scotland or Wales. However, they are all mentioned in the context - by virtue of the fact that they are a part of the UK. Had the statistics of the "Ireland" which is listed in the table actually referred to the whole of the island, then we would have to change the reference to "United Kingdom" to "Great Britain", presumably. But that isn't the case here.

Anyway, I can't see any effort from you to attempt any kind of compromise, so I'll have to learn how to elevate this to a higher level. All the best. --Dalriata111 (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see you've left a couple of automatic messages on my page. Well, here's a few for you in return:

Although newbies may be delicious served with some Fava beans and a nice Chianti, taking a nibble is actively discouraged.

Please do not assume ownership of articles. If you aren't willing to allow your contributions to be edited extensively or be redistributed by others, please do not submit them. Thank you.

Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors. Thank you.

I noticed the message you recently left to a newcomer. Please remember not to bite the newcomers. If you see someone make a common mistake, try to politely point out what they did wrong and how to correct it. Thank you.

Constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, but a recent edit of yours has an edit summary that appears to be inaccurate or inappropriate. Please use edit summaries that accurately tell other editors what you did, and feel free to use the sandbox for any tests you may want to do. Thank you.

Hello. Regarding the recent revert you made: you may already know about them, but you might find Wikipedia:Template messages/User talk namespace useful. After a revert, these can be placed on the user's talk page to let them know you considered their edit inappropriate, and also direct new users towards the sandbox. They can also be used to give a stern warning to a vandal when they've been previously warned. Thank you.

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

You appear to have been guilty of the above oversights in regard to policy and guidelines. I would also like to direct your attention to the following pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Campaign_to_drive_away_productive_contributors

Wikipedia:POV railroad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F

I'm just putting these here to show you how I feel I've been treated by you. Your attitude feels quite offensive and patronising. After reading some of the guidelines here, I think my best course of action now would be to leave you to it, and take the issue to the next level, if and when I have the time. --Dalriata111 (talk) 00:13, 16 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes our first chat

Here is our first chat, knew I would find it sometime, POV Time IP. Murry1975 (talk) 20:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry - I don't understand what the phrase "POV Time IP" means. Could you please elaborate? Thanks. --75.182.54.240 (talk) 20:35, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

September 2014

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you make disruptive edits to Wikipedia contrary to the Manual of Style. Murry1975 (talk) 20:12, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

March 2016

Do not use multiple IP addresses to vandalize Wikipedia. Such attempts to avoid detection or circumvent the blocking policy will not succeed. You are welcome to contribute constructively to Wikipedia but your recent edits have been reverted or removed. If you continue to vandalize Wikipedia you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Murry1975 (talk) 22:04, 19 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]