User talk:Harrias/Cynwit

Sources

@Mike Christie: I see that quite a while ago now, you got both Asser and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle up to Featured status (along with a fair few other articles from that period). I don't know how much you still edit in that area, but I wondered if you might be able to help me a little bit here. This is a completely new era of history for me, but this is a battle that I've come across a few times, and kept meaning to find out more about. I finally found the time, but I'm wary of making assumptions based on my own knowledge. I've tried to read around the subject as much as possible, and clearly this is still very much a work in progress. I'm specifically wondering, given you previous experience on the articles that I mentioned, whether you would be willing to help me with a Sources section, similar to that used by Gog the Mild in articles such as Battle of Drepana. Any further feedback you could provide on what I have in the Background section in particular would also be valuable, but no worries if this isn't something you want to get involved with. Cheers, Harrias ^talk 20:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't edited much in that area for a while, but I still have the refs and I'm still interested in that period, so I'd be glad to help. I'm no expert, though; I actually started editing in that area because I wanted to learn more about it. Most of my A-S refs are listed in the library link in my sig -- I haven't been very good about keeping that up to date but I don't think I've acquired much in that area for a few years, so it's not that bad. If I were to work on this article my reflex would be to go through my sources, then see what I can find on Google Scholar. Is that the sort of thing you had in mind? One source I don't have that I learned about in one of Dudley Miles' recent FACs is Peddie, John (1989). Alfred the Good Soldier. Bath, UK: Millstream Books. ISBN 978-0-948975-19-6., which apparently is a sound book on military A-S matters. Dudley might also be a good person to ask about sources. Anyway, the answer is yes, I'd be glad to help, but I'm not knowledgeable enough just to emit a list of sources; I'd have to go digging and reading. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:52, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Once-over

@Dudley Miles and Amitchell125: I wonder if I could trouble the pair of you to give this article a once-over, and check for any glaring errors where I might have completely misinterpreted a source, or applied modern thinking that isn't synonymous with the era? This has been very much a learning experience for me, as this was a period of history that until I started researching this battle, I knew very little about. Ideally, I'd like to make sure there is nothing too obviously wrong before moving it into mainspace, where I hope to keep refining it, and work it at least up to A-class standard (I fear I may lack sources to get it to FA...) Harrias ^talk 20:02, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look in the next few days. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

I am afraid that I think there are major problems with the article, due to you using a mixture of reliable and unreliable sources. The fundamental one is the suggestion that Cannington Hill is a possible site. Every reliable source I can find says it was at Countisbury Hill, and some historians call it the Battle of Countisbury, including Frank Stenton in the standard (although dated) history of the period. You cite Peter Hunter Blair on the background, but do not seem to realise that he discusses the battle under Countisbury. BTW it should be Blair, Peter Hunter, not Hunter Blair, Peter. I realise that you have a problem accessing sources, but you do need to look at the best source on Alfred's life, Richard Abels' biography. Maybe you can get it from your local library by inter-library loan or get access in a local university library?

Looking at the lead and background sections, most of it looks OK to me. "Æthelred, the King of Wessex, and his brother, Alfred, led the West Saxons in a series of battles against the Great Army in support of the other kingdoms" is wrong. They only embarked on one attempt to support other kingdoms and that was a flop as the Vikings stayed behind the walls of Nottingham and refused to fight. A doubtful statement is " It was a rare victory over the Vikings for a Saxon army not commanded by Alfred the Great". That reflects the view of older historians, but Asser and the Chronicle for the period are now seen as part of Alfred's propaganda machine. There is evidence that the Chronicle underplayed the role of other commanders in the 890s, and while Alfred would have been far more dominant in the 870s there may have been other battles which Alfred did not take part in and which are not recorded.

I have specialised in Anglo-Saxon articles for several years and I hope you will find it helpful if I comment on your sources:

Asser; Jane, L. C. Far too dated. If you want to quote Asser, you should cite standard edition of Keynes and Lapidge.
Black, Jeremy. Not by a specialist. You are far better off using Peter Hunter Blair for background.
Brooks, N. P. Fine.
Brooks, Richard. A general popular book. Not reliable for AS history.
Cornwell, Bernard. A good novelist but not a reliable source.

Note that this is only used to reference the mention of a version of the battle in his novel, not as a source for anything substantive. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Forte. Fine.
Gore. Fine
Peter Hunter Blair. Fine.
Greswell. Much too dated.

Only present for historical debate about the location. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

James, Jeffrey. Doubtful. He is not an Anglo-Saxon specialist.
Kirby. Fine.
Lewis. Not sure. Why no isbn?

It is a journal article. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mcleod. Again why no isbn? Is it a thesis?

Yes, that is stated in the prose. I wasn't going to include it, as Doctoral theses generally aren't considered reliable, but it provided an interesting aside, rather than core detail. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Savill, Richard. Newspapers are not a reliable source for AS history.

No, but to omit Nick Arnold's theory would be negligent, even if it isn't scholarly. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Smyth, Alfred. Better not. This is part of his unsuccessful campaign to persuade other historians that Asser's biography is a fraud.
Starkey, David. A generalist and not reliable for AS history.
Swanton. Fine but it is The Anglo-Saxon Chronicles (not Chronicle)

Swanton's book is called "The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle" (not Chronicles). Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

My copy has Chronicles. I see it was published under both titles. [1]

Walter Hodges, C. A generalist and not reliable for AS history.

Note that this is only used to reference the mention of a version of the battle in his novel, not as a source for anything substantive.

Westcote. Far too dated.

Only present for historical debate about the location. Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Peddie's Alfred the Good Soldier and Alfred Warrior King are worth looking at if you can get easy access. He was an army officer respected by AS specialists for his miliary expertise. Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England has a note on the naval significance of the battle.

I hope this helps. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:33, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles: Cheers, that is a lot of help. Regarding the location, if the modern reliable sources have settled on Countisbury, then as you say, I need to change the article to reflect that, but I think it is still important to include the historical (and indeed, modern via Nick Arnold) debate about the location, though with disclaimer that those locations are not considered credible by modern historians. I've responded to a few of the source commentary where I feel the source included is justified. Our library has just reopened, but isn't doing reservations or inter-library loans at the moment. Hopefully once they do so, I will be able to get my hands on some of the better quality sources you have mentioned. Incidentally, the "Hunter Blair, Peter" format that I used was based on the fact that our article on him lists that as the default sort; I actually had it as "Blair, Peter Hunter" originally! Harrias ^talk 14:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. I was going on the publishing details in the book, which says he is listed in the Library of Congress as Blair, Peter Hunter but this seems to be an error. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Daws Castle, Somerset, and Civil Defence Measures in Southern and Midland England in the Ninth to Eleventh Centuries