Welcome!

Hello JFD/Archive, and welcome to Wikipedia. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

The Five Pillars of Wikipedia
How to edit a page
Editing, policy, conduct, and structure tutorial
Picture tutorial
How to write a great article
Naming conventions
Manual of Style
Merging, redirecting, and renaming pages
If you're ready for the complete list of Wikipedia documentation, there's also Wikipedia:Topical index.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! By the way, please be sure to sign your name on Talk and vote pages using four tildes (~~~~) to produce your name and the current date, or three tildes (~~~) for just your name. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome!

-Poli (talk • contribs) 22:03, 2005 July 25 (UTC)

not sure of exact source[edit]

Not sure of the exact source but I think I got it from the encyclopedia brittanica or a book that I read on bodhidharma. 528 is what most people seem to use; i had the same problem as you when I read this in that the dates seem to conflict -ie in one source he died at that date but in the other he was alive at that date. Regardless, that seems to be around the date. Thus the whole idea that the guy is a semilegendary figure in literature. Nothing seems to correlate. Kennethtennyson 04:25, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

What is interesting is that the first source stating that he was persian might be true. Everything else written later on about bodhidharma was written years after the first source and seem to conflict with it. Chinese considered anything west and buddhist from them later on to be indian, but there were persian buddhists west of them in the Sassanid empire. The Sassanid empire was quite buddhist at the time. Regardless, the bodhidharma legends are quite interesting. Kennethtennyson 04:33, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, you're really interested in Bodhidharma - are you Zen buddhist by chance or just a historian buff?Kennethtennyson 21:32, 26 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Shaolin/Wudang forms[edit]

More as inherited individual postures than complete routines. Ride Tiger (跨虎) is a good example. As well as themes such as snake, dragon, crane, etc. Soft stylists traditionally attribute the influence to the time of the Song dynasty Neo-Confucians. Regards, Fire Star 13:15, 30 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be disheartened[edit]

you wonder why my earlier posts on the subject matter were so vitriolic. I've been dealing with people like this at conferences and on the internet and in publications. you would be amazed at the people out there (especially in regards to Indian history) who have absolutely no ability to see the world beyond their own POV. See the whole Taj Mahal debate. That's why I thoguht there was a Hindutva connection - brainwashing or some form of it. Kennethtennyson 03:18, 7 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Kudos[edit]

Good work at Baguazhang and the other articles, they look great! Fire Star 16:32, 30 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Xingyiquan[edit]

Great work with the tables and such, much better than the bullet lists I put in. The book reference was useful as an example too ;)

Interesting to compare the character for blowfish that you added, and the character used by Sun Lutang in his Xingyiquan Xue text for Tai (flycatcher) that I just added. Is this another example of translation or transcription problems? --Medains 06:15, 1 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

chinashaolintemple.com[edit]

Well, it does seem that it could be just more spam. I didn't want to take it out without looking at it more carefully (which I haven't had time to do, I've been spending most of my time at acupuncture, a debate you may find interesting, BTW). If you want to remove it, I won't object.

Also, there was a proposal to merge the Kung fu, Wushu and Chinese martial arts articles that I've just noticed. It should be possible, but it would make for one whacking huge article! I'm sure there is much redundancy to be eliminated, perhaps with the aid of some shiny html tables! ;-)

Cheers, Fire Star 17:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Barnstar[edit]

I, Fire Star award you this barnstar for the consistently excellent quality of your contributions, and especially for your neutrality, accuracy and informative tables on the various Chinese martial arts articles.

Pai Mei / Bak Mei[edit]

Hi, I noticed you suggested a merge. I think Pai Mei should be kept separate as a character in works of fiction, with links to the real life person the character is based on. -Ajshm 10:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese Characters[edit]

Hi, I'm wondering if you knew how to input Chinese characters in wikipedia. It's usually # followed by numbers. Could you tell me how to do that? Illusionz 03:56, 9 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Leopard Kung Fu[edit]

Hi there, I see you have contributed to the Leopard style Kung fu page. There has been another author, 24.131.148.98, who has been adding a lot of content that seems like personal opinion ("its the best of the five elements" etc), which seemed a bit out of place. I was wondering if you could take a gander at it and see if you think some of that content is a bit too much. I don't know enough about the styles to say so, but it sounds like those edits were made by someone who is trying to boast about how their style is the best, etc etc (of course, who doesn't think that, it seems...). If you agree, we could NPOV tag it I guess? I'm not really that up on wiki-procedure with that stuff. I've added a note on the talk page there as well. Cheers. --Vanchuck 05:38, 8 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Doc-Fai Wong[edit]

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as Doc-Fai Wong, but we regretfully cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from either web sites or printed material. This article appears to be a direct copy from http://www.plumblossom.net/Grandmaster/. As a copyright violation, Doc-Fai Wong appears to qualify for speedy deletion under the speedy deletion criteria. Doc-Fai Wong has been tagged for deletion, and may have been deleted by the time you see this message. If the source is a credible one, please consider rewriting the content and citing the source.

If you believe that the article is not a copyright violation, or if you have permission from the copyright holder to release the content freely under the GFDL, you can comment to that effect on Talk:Doc-Fai Wong. If the article has already been deleted, but you have a proper release, you can reenter the content at Doc-Fai Wong, after describing the release on the talk page. However, you may want to consider rewriting the content in your own words. Thank you, and please feel free to continue contributing to Wikipedia.

--Mr Stephen 21:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

User:Dessydes[edit]

Yo guy, thanks for the reply. The reason I originally wrote the bit on Shaolin Kung Fu was that I used to keep useful bits of information from TV and stuff lying around. That what you read was from a National Geographic article on Shaolin Kung Fu, and I hoped someone would be able to use it in the article. (I kept these things before I knew about Wikipedia).

My Interests are not solely in Kung Fu, However, but if you need help with anything, don't hesitate to ask. Also, don't be a stranger to my talk and user pages, I keep some Wikidiaries, which I hope other people read, as nowadays I often don't have time to write articles, etc. They also make for a good read. Please keep in touch every now and then. Dessydes 23:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removing messages[edit]

Please do not remove messages from your talk page. Talk pages exist as a record of communication, and in any case, comments are available through the page history. You're welcome to archive your talk page, but be sure to provide a link to any deleted comments. Thanks. --Mr Stephen 08:18, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you upload a picture?[edit]

JFD, I have a cover picture of Zhou Tong's biography. How do I upload a picture of it? I've gone to the "Upload file" section and tried it before, but It didn't work out the last time I tried putting a picture on Wikipedia.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 05:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Nevermind, I figured out how to do it. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 06:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Elephant Boxing[edit]

I think the info about Yue Fei expanding Elephant boxing into the 108 qinna techniques should be left on the page. I agree with your statement that the Zhou Tong page isn't a thesis; however, some info should be left that links elepahnt boxing to eagle claw. Otherwise, people are going to read about Zhou Tong's skill in Elephant boxing and say "What the hell is that?"

Maybe a sentence like this, "Elephant boxing was later adapted by Yue Fei to create the 108 qinna techniques of Eagle Claw," something short and too the point. This extra sentence will link the two pages together. I'll leave these changes to you since you seem to be a far more experienced wikipedian than myself. Thanks. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:13, 15 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I just thought of something simple. I saw that you took the "Yue Clan Eagle-Claw Catch" info and put it in the Eagle Claw page. Mabye the second sentence should read, "Elephant boxing has been linked [or assoaciated (that's up to you)] with modern Eagle Claw". Or perhaps you could paste the info you put about it being a system of joint locking and pressure-point techniques as the second sentence. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Testicle Eight Outstanding Qigong[edit]

As far as I know it is correct. I have spoken with a Chinese friend of mine and he assures me that the characters are correct. His actual words were "there are many different kinds of qigong" (as in spelling and context). I believe he even said that the characters used for qigong could also be a variation for the word "technique". I found the info on a chinese website. So if the info is indeed wrong, the original chinese author made the mistake.(!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 09:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Yue Fei's Soldiers: Xingyi or Chuojiao, Fanzhi, & qinna?[edit]

As I'm sure you have realized by now, Yue Fei is my favorite Chinese general. One thing that doesn't set well with me about him is the number of martial arts attributed to him. Most educated people would guess these styles were not created by him but by others, either before or after Yue Fei's time, whose disciples attributed them to the general because of his legendary status.

The only information I have seen that points to Yue Fei's involvement with Xing Yi is the so-called "Ji family Chronicle" that says Ji Longfeng found Yue Fei's manual of boxing. I think that is it. As you have explained, as well as what I have read, Xingyi, in one form or another, predates Yue Fei. I will, however, accept the very meek possibility that he indeed learned the style at one point in his very busy life. But this raises an interesting question. Did Yue Fei actually train his soldiers in Xingyi?

I don't believe he trained his soldiers in Xingyi at all. My basis for this is that Xingyi is such an advanced art and his soldiers were constantly on the move. I just don't think the average person, under those harsh conditions, would have been able to effectively utilize this style on the battlefield. This could be compared to the “Northern” and “Southern” schools of Shaolin. Originally, “Northern” Shaolin was a softer style (but with hard techniques of course), which took many years to master. During the struggle between Ming loyalists and Qing forces, the “Southern” Shaolin adopted harsher training regimes in order to turn out an effective fighter in a much shorter amount of time. I don’t think Yue Fei’s soldiers were afforded the time necessary to learn this complex system. However, I believe he might have taught them Chuojiao, Fanzi, and the 108 joint-locks techniques. These systems seem to be quicker to learn.

If he did teach it to anyone, I believe he would have taught Xingyi to his most trusted generals. What is your view on this subject? (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 22:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

I’ve also read that Xingyi is easy to learn, but takes years to fully understand its principles. Again, I have read about the possible link between Wen family boxing and Xingyi and Chuojiao. That's a pretty heavy claim! It’s just astonishing to me to see so many styles that are either "sister styles" or "variations" of Xingyi--Xingyiba, Luihe, Wuji, Water Boxing, etc.

In your opinion, what variation on Xingyi do you think he taught his troops? I mean, if Zhou Tong taught him Chuojiao, Fanziquan, Elephant Boxing and maybe even Xinyiba, do you think he could have changed the postures of these styles to accommodate soldiers wearing heavy armor and came up with a completely new style? Plus, there is also the boxing style which bares his name, Yuejiaquan– “Yue Family Boxing”. Do you think this style could have been the end result of changing said postures?

According to a website that carries instructional Yue Family boxing VCD’s, two particular boxing styles--“Six Harmonies” & “Double Three Doors” boxing—make up this system (well besides the spear, staff, and grappling forms). The postures from each vcd jpeg look very familiar.

I'm afraid to admit the HISTORY of Xingyi is just too confusing for me. If my chinese were better, I would do some serious reading on the subject, but sadly I have the chinese reading level of a toddler.

Like I said before, I am writing a historical fiction novel based around the life of a soldier under Yue Fei's command. I want to make the events and martial arts as historically correct as possible, so many years from now, when I finally publish, I won't have historians and martial artists coming up to me and spitting in my face! (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 23:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Could you tell me more about Xinyiba? What are its Chinese characters? You say it could have been apart of the Shaolin curriculum by Zhou Tong's time, right? This sounds like an avenue I could explore. I know you said it dates back to the Liang Dynasty, but I've googled it and it is only mentioned in regards to Ji Longfeng.

I did find a site that talks about the "Three Fists" (San Quan) of Xingyi. This is interesting to me because the Yue Family Boxingstyle has a set known as "Three Doors" Boxing. I wonder if these Three Doors were developed from the three fists of Xinyiba?

I especially liked your comment, "armor makes joint-locking techniques relatively more useful and striking techniques relatively less so." (You see, the problem with me is that I concentrate so much on my research that I tend to overlook obvious conclusions.) I watched a video of Xinyiba on youtube.com and it seems to me that this style's evasive actions would be a great set up for following through with joint-locking techniques. When I was in the US Army, 82nd Airborne Division, I used qinna a lot to neutralize rowdy or aggressive soldiers.

On a side note, the picture of the Chuojiao player will be deleted any day now. I had used the picture originally because there were no copyright licenses on it, but I wrote the operator of the site (where I got it from) for more Chuojiao info and he told me a copyright had just recently been placed on it. I guess I will have to find a new picture now. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 11:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

This is what you wrote on the Xingyiquan Discussion page:

“Whenever anyone talks about Xingyi predating Yue Fei all the way back to the Liang Dynasty, they're usually talking about Xinyiba, which mimics the movements of animals and human labor, a description that fits Xingyi as well, with its animal routines and Chopping, Crushing, Pounding, Drilling and Crossing fists. (Yes, I know this contradicts what I wrote above about the Five Element Fists postdating the Henan/Shanxi-Hebei split; that said, all branches of Xingyi share the Three Fists Drilling, Wrapping and Stepping Forward.”

I realize that you didn’t specifically mention the “three fists” in regards to xinyiba; however, you did mention the basic three fists inherent in all Xingyi branches. But later, I read something on the Dai Family martial arts webpage:

“On the other hand some researchers point out at Three Fists (San Quan) as the earliest part of Dai Family Xinyi system with Five Elements coming later.”

Of course I do not know how far back Dai Family martial arts go, but I (stupidly?) assumed there was a correlation between the two: The 3 later became 5. Then again, I might be “overthinking” this. Maybe there were originally 5, but the Dai family “purified” it down to 3, but later adopted the 5 again.

From my understanding, the Dai family are the creators of “Modern” “Xingyi” and not “Xinyi”. I am still confused on the split there, but from what I read, Xinyi came first then Xingyi. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 03:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

What are the major differences between xinyiba and "modern" xingyi? Is it the stance (ie. knees and elbows closer to or farther from the body)? Is it the Animal forms (10 or 12 and which ones)? I found a page about xinyiba on the interenet, but its descrition of technique is mostly "Qi theory" and the "six harmonies". Here is the link. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 19:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Thanks. I recently found this information about Xinyi quan:

"Brief History of Yiquan

Xinyiquan is also named Xinyiuba, Liuhebu and Xingyiquan. In his Essence of Combat Science , Master Wang Xiangzhai mentioned that Xinyiquan was named Xingyiquan (shadow boxing) since Master Dai Longbang. Even now, both Xinyiuquan and Xingyiquan are still spreading in Henan Province, slightly different in practice because of the different development routes.

Master Wang also said that Xinyiquan was named Lao Sanquan (Old Three Punches) in its earliest time, that was, "Jian, Zan, Guo". In his words, Jian refers to footwork, Zan refers to the movements of the front arm and Guo means one's body movements should be all-embracing.

Wuquan Shi'erxing (five punches and twelve images) was explained by Master Wang as follows: in the original Xingyiquan, there were no definite practice of Twelve Images, yet it had incorporated all of them into it, with no one conflicting another. Nevertheless, Wuxing, referring to five forces, was not any set of hand posture or tactics and skills..." [1]

I find it interesting that Master Wang claims Xinyi was also known as "Old Three Punches". Of course this nickname is in reference to the footwork and stance and not the number of fist techniques used. The last sentence is interesting because it makes it sound like the "5 Fists" were not inherent in all of the earliest forms of xinyiquan. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 21:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC))[reply]

Kalaripayattu[edit]

Sorry for the delay in the reply I believe that the citations above actually came from Zarilli's work and he cited other authors. I don't believe that current historians believe that the Chera and Chola war ever existed. As for the redundancy I can rewrite what i've written. The ban under the Raj is in Zarilli's text and I believe that I've read it in other descriptions of kalaripayattu's history

ilacization was actually an accident. as for zarilli's online text, i believe that it is taken from his book and it is actually cited. the citation for the chera and chola war i believe is in his book. If i remember correctly, the reason why people dispute the existence of the war is due to the fact that no one has found evidence of the existence of a war that lasted 100 years. Kennethtennyson

=bodhdihdarma[edit]

i think it's necessary to place that he is semi-legendary or legendary to preface the article. most encyclopedias do this... it lends a belief that bodhdiharma was truly a figure in history if you do not. Kennethtennyson 20:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]