User talk:Kieronoldham/Archive 21

Considering retirement

Hi, I hope all is well. I have been through some very unpleasent, surprising, and abrupt times as of late. I may not to be able to continue editing much longer for multiple reasons and may soon de-activate my account, thought I might return at a later date. I would like to stay in touch with you through some method, so if you are OK with that and know of one please let me know. Davidgoodheart (talk) 02:04, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Aye all's well, Davidgoodheart (despite the pandemic). Sorry to hear of your circumstances, and hope all turns out well. Sure you can message me on here. Think maybe a wee break to rejuvenate may help? I, myself, thought about retiring a while ago, but decided to return. I hope you decide to return to Wiki. Even if you would prefer to largely or completely retire, feel free to keep in touch.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:14, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

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Sylvia Likens

I read your recent edit summaries. Thank you.Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 08:49, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

You're welcome,Tribe of Tiger. I spent a considerable amount of time researching this case last year for the article. I have always said that if a female wants to hatch calculated evil, for the most part, they make men seem like amateurs. I loathe this case, and those responsible, more than words can convey. It is just so obvious why this happened, ultimately: jealousy. But of course, according to what I have read online, if I sold Class A drugs in Indiana or shot someone in the middle of a robbery, I could expect to serve more time in jail.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:04, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks so very much for doing this difficult work. Something that I read online, lead me to look up this WP article. This well-referenced account is absolutely soul-sickening. Although I hope that this is an extreme situation, I have sat face to face, in group therapy sessions, (and other private "sessions") and heard people recount dreadful abuse, inflicted by fathers, stepfathers, brothers, etc., which were known or witnessed by their mothers. The ability to commit Evil is not restricted to one sex. I agree with your statement concerning jealousy. I think there was also a mob mentality element at work.

When I read the full article, some months ago, I noted that some of the people who tormented Sylvia, died at rather young ages. Now, 55 years later, I would hope that all of these people would have received longer prison sentences. Also, some people who should have noticed that something was wrong, turned a blind eye.

Frankly, in these days of COVID, I am very concerned for children and others, who cannot escape their tormentors. The enforced isolation provides abusers with a "captive audience", who have no means of escape. Respectfully, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 03:07, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. It was not easy researching and populating this article, Tribe of Tiger (even by comparison to other articles I have researched), but to my mind it would be doing a disservice to this poor girl to seek euphemisms or deliberately avoid describing the case in stark detail. People infer to times "being different" back then as an excuse for why this was allowed to progress. I only partly agree, and concur the neighbors, teachers etc. should have investigated further. It reverts back to the ultimate "b**tch's" calculating attitude in her downtrodden efforts to purge her deep-seated feelings of inadequacy and frustration onto the ultimate symbolic representation of what she no longer had, and had thrown away with her own life. But, of course, she apparently was "not sure" what role she had in this, as far as her explanation to the parole board, even though she repeatedly sought to deflect suspicions right up until her arrest.

The tears at the trial were because Sylvia died before her accomplices could take her to Jimmy's Forest. I'll leave it to your own imagination what would have happened to Jenny if those police had bought her excuses on October 26. I also agree with some online comments that, in her own way, she failed her own sister. As for the number of participants, they fed off each other. They each had different reasons. Coy, for example, primarily wanted to impress Stephanie. The abuse started roughly on July 20, but only really began to progress in the second half of August.

Some died young. Others (Paula, James, Stephanie, Judy, Mike) are still alive, and self-absolve even now. Like I said, a drug dealer or maybe a hit-and-run driver will serve a greater jail sentence. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot to watchlist your page! Just now thought to check on you and discovered my error. I wish to make some comments, but it is late...I will get back to you soon, thanks, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 06:55, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

This is a truly dreadful case. But abuse is still ongoing, according to newspaper articles. Children kept in cages, or beaten/tortured and murdered by parents or caregivers. Even in the 21st century, when we are supposedly more aware, the abuse continues.

Fifteen or so years ago, our neighbor's grandchild died, while being cared for by a trusted babysitter, who was the young mother's friend. I had "met" this charming little girl, one day, while talking to her mother. At the time, the little girl's father and uncle were in the process of working on a renovation project at my home. Her death occurred some months later.

The babysitter put the toddler into a scalding hot bath. Attempting to disguise, (or perhaps to enhance) the damage, she dressed the child in heavy clothing, a long-sleeved jacket and pants, and put her into bed. The child died from from the combination of her burns and the overheating.

During the course of the trial, it was revealed that the little girl had experienced some other odd injuries, while in the care of the babysitter, which had been "explained" at the time. The babysitter and so-called friend was, quite rightly, convinced of murder. The parents, who were in their early twenties, trusted the mother's childhood friend. I simply cannot imagine the horror and self-blame that this young married couple endured, along with the pain of losing their only child.

Children who grow up in dysfunctional/abusive homes are indoctrinated into secrecy. If a very young child "tells" it is easy for the parents to discount the reports. Then the child is punished, which reinforces the secrecy. Adults look the other way. Abused children often act out at school, which reinforces the image that the child is the problem, not the parents. You are probably too young to know this song by Pat Benatar[1], Hell is for Children, 1980.

Jenny was powerless, unless an adult would believe her. Even their sister, Dianna did not believe the two sisters. I cannot agree with any online comments stating that Jenny failed her sister. Blaming the other victim is not helpful. Neither girl had any power or anyone to turn to for assistance. If their own sister, Dianna didn't believe these two children, why would they think that an adult would do so? Absolute terror is a powerful weapon. Sadly, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 03:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Society will never be perfect, but we can and should learn from the past. There is a positive legacy here and I believe this should be in the Aftermath section? It was not easy researching and writing this, and I hope awareness can be increased via these articles and, occasionally, the YT videos people use Wiki. articles like this one to populate. Both sisters were psychologically abused (the hag had some tangible control in her life in her downtrodden impoverished home and against teenage females not biologically related to her), and I'll wager that if Jenny did not suffer from polio, she would have been subjected to the same type and degree of physical abuse. I take no pleasure in saying this, and do not hold any actual culpability to her (if anything Jenny was the individual who endured a form of life sentence from this as opposed to the perpetrators), but it is just my opinion - I just wish she would have told. Yeah, we were not there, and it is "easy" forming opinions, but we're still entitled. It was a defense-mechanism on Jenny's part. There were just so many missed opportunities over the better part of three months, by so many (esp. adults), it is almost surreal to acknowledge...

I was born in the 1980s, btw. No, I don't recall that song. Totally off-topic, but one of my earliest childhood memories is standing near a fireplace watching my oldest sister, Anna, playing Duran Duran vinyl singles when I was about four years old.

Sorry to read about the case you outlined, Tribe of Tiger.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:23, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

"Delta Dawn" identified!

Hi Kieron!

Just wanted to let you know that the previously unidentified victim, known as "Delta Dawn" was announced to be identified today as Alisha Heinrich, after genetic genealogy was used to identify her, prompting the addition of her mother into missing person databases.

Cheers!

--GouramiWatcher^Talk 20:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Gourami Watcher.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Sylvia Likens

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, before you archived. Thanks for your kind words regarding the incident I described. Remembering has caused me a few sleepless nights. I honor and respect you for writing this article. You supplied this link [2]. I know you are an experienced WP editor....is there any reason why this should not be added to the article? I think it is entirely appropriate. Perhaps in a separate section...Advocacy? If you agree/approve, I will add a summary under a new "Advocacy" section. The website states "Prosecutors and police began to understand the investigation of child abuse and neglect more. Schools and other child-first organizations began to understand more, too, and identify the signs of abuse. Sylvia’s tragic death shocked an entire state and community into recognizing the horrors of child abuse in a way no case had before or since." I think I could summarize this, etc.

Hold on to good memories of Anna and Duran Duran...most people do not recall their early years so well. (I do, but my spouse does not.) Best wishes to you,Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 06:30, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

No worries,Tribe of Tiger. I usually archive by default every two to four months. Aye I thought it would be appropriate to add the link either in the External links section, or the Aftermath section. I honestly thought there would have been an editor who would have included this by now. I only discovered the link a week a short while ago. Best regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:09, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay, although I haven't summarized the above quote, yet, I have added an Advocacy section, with a description of the Center. This is a start... I added the link as a source. See what you think.

WP is so huge...even our good faith people may not notice a particular, but important article. So glad you found the link, and mentioned it to me! Best, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 05:11, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Tribe of Tiger. I have started morphing the addition into the article. Hope it meets your approval. It is a nice addition to the article. Sure Wikipedia is vast. It is a welcome challenge to me. I usually devote focus to one particular article at a time. Best regards.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:40, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I approve, and I am grateful for your good work! Thanks so much for taking the time to make these improvements. Watching your edits and improvements, has provided me with some WP education. Kindest regards, Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:57, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Could you please help me out with editing

Hi, one of the reasons that I had considered retirement is because I have way too much editing to do. Do you think that you could help me add some entries to the List of unsolved deaths and the Lists of unsolved murders? I have been adding a lot of entries to these lists as of late, which is very time consuming as well as tiring. If you can then I can give you some entries to add. It would make it a lot easier for me and I would be VERY thankful for the help! Davidgoodheart (talk) 20:34, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

I will try, Davidgoodheart. I have helped a little occasionally, as you know, and I believe you made a similar request about two or three years ago. Most of the cases I am aware of are already in the articles. I am devoting focus on the Jeffrey MacDonald article at the moment, but will try and find time going forward. I am about 80-90% complete with this article, though. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:19, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

List some entries for one of the articles, if you wish. Thanks.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:00, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The Bocksten Man, a modern body from 1290–1430 CE, found 1936 in Varberg Municipality, Sweden, Borremose Bodies, from 400–700 BCE, found 1940s in Himmerland, Denmark and Cladh Hallan mummies some entries that could add to these lists. Davidgoodheart. Thank you. (talk) 20:37, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Of interest...

Considering your compassion for abused children, I wonder if you have seen Good Will Hunting 1997. Wonderful film, which provided Robin Williams with a well-deserved Oscar for his performance. At around the 1:40 -1:45 mark, is the beginning of an extremely powerful scene. "It's not your fault", is the ultimate benediction to an abused child. This cathartic scene resonates with any person who has experienced abuse. I recommend this film. Amazing that two young people (Damon and Affleck) could write such a powerful screenplay, and (deservedly) receive an Oscar for their work. Worth a few pounds/dollars, to watch, at least once. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 23:43, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I just populate whatever cases need expanding, given the fact Wiki. is a powerful tool. I also don't like the dismissive attitude some display to the website. Sometimes people ask me to look at particular cases. I have populated all types of articles, but mainly true crime. As I said to someone on here once I just compartmentalize any emotion because it could be detrimental to the psyche if you allow it to permeate. No, not seen that movie, Tribe of Tiger. May check it out sometime. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 23:52, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's often an annoyance to have people say "watch this or watch that". This is the first time, in nearly five years of editing, that I have recommended a film to a WP editor. I consider WP to be a wonderful source of information...I read many biological science articles, biographies, etc. To me, the ability to read the online sources, as cited in so many articles, is a bonus. For example, if I want more info, or question the article's statements, I can read the source, and arrive at my own opinion. I believe we are engaged in a worthy enterprise. We benefit from editors like you, who can maintain a neutral point of view, while writing about difficult subjects. Once again, I do thank you for the excellent work. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 00:26, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. You too. I have heard of the movie, Tribe of Tiger. :) I will check it in time, I assure you. There was a British made-for-TV film called No Child of Mine from 1997 I recall watching back when I was at college - that was difficult to watch. Not seen it since it was on TV, but it is on YT. I'll say again I think Wikipedia is a worthy - and trustworthy - ongoing project. Frequently, I purchase books to research cases before (or during) populating them. All the best!. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 00:59, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Article up for deletion

Please check this out article Daisy the Great. It is up for deletion. Davidgoodheart (talk) 23:15, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I'll try, Davidgoodheart. Do you want me to vote on its validity to keep? Bands formed by old college friends of mine and who have appeared on local radio shows and in regional press, and who have their own Facebook page, do not have their own Wiki. articles.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:29, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I can't decide for you, you must make your own decision on how to vote. Also asking someone how to vote is against the rules as it is called canvassing. Davidgoodheart (talk) 04:43, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

That I understand, Davidgoodheart. It just seems surreal to me, though, that somebody would ask me to "check" an article of this kind. I thought you may have been asking me to check the content of the article. My decision is in my prv. text.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:02, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Your right, I was asking you if you were going to vote to have it kept or not, not it's content. Thank you for understanding that. Davidgoodheart (talk) 05:14, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Just voted, Davidgoodheart. Can see merit either way, but the article needs working on significantly if a decision is made to keep. Point 12 of WP:BAND still makes me think otherwise, but, the likes of allmusic.com have entries for this group.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:23, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

I see that and I glad that you followed through. Here are some more articles that are up for deletion that you could vote at their AFDs: Arthur Harvey, and Bob Snyder (musician). I also wanted to know that I am still adding to the List of unsolved deaths and have added a few entries as of late and will continue to upgrade articles that need improving. Davidgoodheart (talk) 22:36, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Did Arthur Harvey perform a notable act in WWI? Earn any distinguishable military awards in either war? Fundamental achievements beyond discovering oil fields (which may warrant a referenced mention in other articles or his unlinkable, but referenced name upon a few Wiki lists)? An Impressive life, Davidgoodheart, but, in my own humble opinion, what sets him above the canopy?--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:15, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Your right as he wasn't very notable in the army, but he is mentioned in multiple books and may have been a good writer as well. Davidgoodheart (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Have a happy holidays and all the best. Davidgoodheart (talk) 06:25, 25 December 2020 (UTC)