User talk:Tamsier/2011

Talk:Maba Diakhou Bâ

Hi,

I don't have any particular investment in the Maba Diakhou Bâ: i believe I translated the French language Wikipedia article, but I was some time ago. Adding additional sourced information would be valuable, even if multiple sources disagree.

I would just echo what was said here: User_talk:Belovedfreak#Maba_Diakhou_B.C3.A2. I would recommend a careful reading of Wikipedia's sometimes rather peculiar guidelines on style and sourcing. Wikipedia is not the place to uncover new information, but merely to report what established secondary sources say, even if we disagree with them or if multiple sources disagree.

Maba Diakhou Bâ may well have been a 'very bad man', but we're not interested in truth: we're interested in what verifiable, established secondary sources say. And their accounts need to be reported as such. Martin Klein, Alioune Sarr, and Charles Becker are all -- as I'm sure you are quite aware -- incredibly respected sources, and I would suggest following them closely here. I note Mohamed Mbodj as one of the editors you cite: he was my professor when I was at Columbia, and so I implicitly trust his writing. I would suggest paraphrasing what they say and citing them with inline citations (using the "ref" tag).

Best of luck, and please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. T L Miles (talk) 14:51, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Hello again. I'm just an editor like you, so feel free to edit Maba Diakhou Bâ. Please do, though, read up on stylistic/'point of view' rules on Wikipedia. The difference between an essay and a encyclopedia entry. Both tone (neutral) and balance (you're not trying to make a point) are pretty crucial. This is less from any moralistic standpoint on my part: writing with the expected balance and style will prevent your content from being reverted or removed by the next editor who happens along.

Footnotes: they're kinda important to get right (in part also because people are less likely to delete well footnoted content). Please do carefully read WP:NOTES. You can play with this -- and other aspects of wiki syntax -- by creating pages beneath your account page e.g. User:Tamsier/sandbox/pagename and editing it until you're happy with it. This might help with your article deletion issues as well. Best of luck. T L Miles (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Genetic report...

On the first page of this article it states, "The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin." http://www.africandna.com/ScienPapers/MtDNA_Profile_of_West_African_Guineans.pdf

The Serer also have haplogroup M1, so this also supports a Nile Valley origin for the Serer: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/8/223/figure/F1

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2164/8/223

It has been found that paternally, all Senegalese are 80% haplogroup E-M2(also called, haplogroup E1b1a, haplogroup M2, and haplogroup E3a ... our haplotype is haplotype IV, which means haplogroup E-M2).

On page 3 of this article it states, "The E-P2* lineages were observed mainly in Ethiopians, whereas E-M2, which is considered a signature of the Bantu expansion (Hammer et al. 1998; Passarino et al. 1998; Scozzari et al. 1999), shows its highest frequency (>80%) in Senegal and has been sporadically observed in North Africa and Iraq." http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf

According to the International Society of Genetic Genealogy, towards the bottom of the site, it states, "E1b1a is an African lineage that probably expanded from northern African to sub-Saharan and equatorial Africa with the Bantu agricultural expansion.": http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE.html

Dr. Shomarka Omar Yahya Keita Ph.D of the National Human Genome Center of Howard University and the Department of Anthropology of the Smithsonian Institution wrote that, "The M2 lineage is mainly found primarily in ‘‘eastern,’’ ‘‘sub-Saharan,’’ and sub-equatorial African groups, those with the highest frequency of the ‘‘Broad’’ trend physiognomy, but found also in notable frequencies in Nubia and Upper Egypt, as indicated by the RFLP TaqI 49a, f variant IV (see Lucotte and Mercier, 2003; Al-Zahery et al. 2003 for equivalences of markers), which is affiliated with it. The distribution of these markers in other parts of Africa has usually been explained by the ‘‘Bantu migrations,’’ but their presence in the Nile Valley in non-Bantu speakers cannot be explained in this way. Their existence is better explained by their being present in populations of the early Holocene Sahara, who in part went on to people the Nile Valley in the mid-Holocene, according to Hassan (1988); this occurred long before the ‘‘Bantu migrations,’’ which also do not explain the high frequency of M2 in Senegal, since there are no Bantu speakers there either." http://knol.google.com/k/peopling-of-the-nile-valley

"Haplogroup E3a may have originated in North Africa, and spread south into Sub-Saharan Africa." http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_e3a.htm

"We analyzed Y-chromosome haplotypes in the Nile River Valley in Egypt in 274 unrelated males, using the p49a,f TaqI polymorphism. These individuals were born in three regions along the river: in Alexandria(the Delta and Lower Egypt), in Upper Egypt, and in Lower Nubia. Fifteen different p49a,f TaqI haplotypes are present in Egypt, the three most common being haplotype V (39.4%), haplotype XI (18.9%), and haplotype IV(13.9%). Haplotype V is a characteristic Arab haplotype, with a northern geographic distribution in Egypt in the Nile River Valley. Haplotype IV, characteristic of sub-Saharan populations, shows a southern geographic distribution in Egypt." http://wysinger.homestead.com/haplotypes_in_egypt.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by MenAfuraka (talk • contribs) 16:10, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi MenAfuraka,

Thank you for the genetic reports you have sent me. I have read it with great interest and crossed checked the links however this is not my speciality. I am the least qualified to discuss this issue. My speciality is history and religion and to a lesser extend archaeology. My two areas of expertise are history and religion but not genetics. However your sources seems to be reliable or notable. You seem to have a greater understanding of this topic than I do. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to come from a genetic angle and discuss your case in the Serer people talk page here: [1]. It may even perhaps be wise to invite other editors who are specialist in this field. Also try to find many other reliable sources (try hardcopy books or Google books) that backs up these as long as they are qualified in this field and their books peer reviewed you'll be fine. Try and invite other editors also. Some years ago, there used to be an African-American editor here who is a specialist in this field but I can't remember their username. You need people like that who are specialist in this field. It may be helful to visit pages like this [2] some of them are arguing about a similar thing, hopefully some of the editors are still around. Try to come back to the Serer people talk page (see link above) and argue your case calmly with sources. The more diverse the views the better. Just two small things:

1. When pasting URLs, especially long ones, use the bracket [ ] so that it minimises it with the URL right in the middle of the brackets.

2. Always sign your name in talk pages using 4 stilds (~) (without the brackets) at the bottom. I think you can find that in your the Welcome message above. People get really annoyed if you don't sign your name.

Tamsier (talk) 18:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Serer

I will be adding the information you posted on 'Serer Religion' page onto the 'Pre-History' section of the Serer page since it definitely fits perfect there. I'm referring to this information you shared from Henry Gravrand: "Rupestral engravings of the Sahara before it turned into a desert are well the proof of a double presence of Blacks and Berbers in the Sahara. During a visit of the geologists on the pre-historic site of Thiemassas (in Senegal), not far from Mbour, the geological analysis of the site, its oral tradition and the origin of the Sereer were successively evoked. I was brought to present the Sereer origins from the Nilotic point of view, going back to ten millennia to the present, of their ancestors from the Nile valley. During the debate held on the geological site in question, the possibilities of the crossing of the Sahara were recognised reasonable before the fifth millennium. According to the present geologists and pre-historians, there was a Saharan optimum with the seventh, the sixth and even at the fifth millennia. On the assumption of a Sereer presence in the valley of the Nile, between the tenth and the fifth millennia, or of a Lebou presence in the west of Egypt at varying times, a series of migrations relating to restricted groups is about the possible one."

MenAfuraka (talk) 02:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi MenAfuraka,

Thanks for your message. That part was actually in the Pre-history section of Serer people. It was I who put it there with the sources but was apperently deleted by someone. I am trying to ensure that all the major contributors to Serer people come to a decision. The source is very reliable because it is based on leading scholars, historians and prehistorians, archaelogists etc. I decided not to waste my time re-doing it again because I don't want it to be deleted again when I am not here.

Regards

Tamsier (talk) 03:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.28.125.148 (talk)

Proposed deletion of Rémi Jegaan Dioh

The article Rémi Jegaan Dioh has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

I'm not seeing any references to back up claims of nobility. The Ferloo ref is an interview and quotes sources from his webpage, therefore not reliable. I see alot of refs out there to his webpage or forums, but no reliable, independent refs. (see WP:SOURCES). I can only find on album he has done, but his webpage claims more.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. Bgwhite (talk) 06:45, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi Bgwhite, thanks for notifying me about your Proposed deletion of the Rémi Jegaan Dioh article. I created the article and added a stub tag to it. I was intending to develop it but because I am sourcing or cleaning up several unsourced articles, I was intending to come back to it. I'll work on the article and remove the proposed deletion tag.

Thanks