Talk:Serer people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Africa / Gambia / Mauritania / Senegal (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Gambia (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Mauritania (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Senegal (marked as Top-importance).
WikiProject Ethnic groups (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ethnic groups, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to ethnic groups, nationalities, and other cultural identities on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Vandalism by Please stop it[edit]

  • Would stop vandalising this article. People have invested a lot of time and effort to improve this article it doesn't help if you keep vandalising it. In future if you have something positive to add to this article please discuss it in the talk page. I have to spend hours undoing what you have just done. Citing several sources (some of which are unreliable) about one particular issue which has already been addressed and sourced with notable sources is one thing, deleting edits with notable sources and then copying and pasting those sources to make a point is another. You wanted the article to talk about Serer Nile Valley migration. That had already been discussed several times with notable sources like Gravrand, Cheikh Anta Diop, etc. You also wanted the ethnonym of Serer to reflect the thesis of Diop. The article already did that with notable sources including Diop himself. If only you took the time to read the whole article you would have realised that, all these had been addressed. However, you should also appreciate that not every scholar and certainly not the ultra traditionalist Serer who wants nothing to do with Egypt agree with Diop and in fact his thesis were rebutted by several scholars including Schuh, etc. These are relevant view points which should also be taken into account in other to avoid bias.

I will now respond to the "sources" that you have provided.

Link 1:

Have you realised that this source is not credible contrary to all the sources cited? Have you also realised that the author referred to the Kingdoms of Sine and Saloum as Wolof states? Even the least verse on Senegambian history can easily find out for themselves that the Kingdom of Sine and Kingdom of Saloum were Serer Kingdoms not Wolof never mind a supposed scholar. Just in case, here is a link for your perusal: Editor: Carole Boyce Davies. "Encyclopedia of the African diaspora: origins, experiences and culture". Volume 1. P987. Published by: ABC-CLIO, 2008. 1851097007, 9781851097005. Further, all the sources, historical and archaeological evidence shows that the Senegambian stone circles were built by the Serer people. (See: Gravrand, Pangool; Gamble, Salmon and Njie; Burke and Else; and F. Richard).

Since they were built by the Serers, and evidence have shown that they are built well before the 14th century, how then could the Serers have migrated into the area into the 14th century? That doesn’t make sense. Now the Serers may have migrated to from the Nile Valley as implied by Henri Gravrand in “La Civilisation Sereer, Pangool”, which is one of the sources cited in the article, but as noted by Gravrand, if they did came from the Nile it was more than 5 thousand years ago and certainly not the 14th century. Further, as demonstrated by Gamble, Salmon and Njie, the Serer are the oldest inhabitants of Senegambia, others later moved in. This backs up archealogical source, backs up Gravrand, Kleine, Richard and so on. If your source was referring to the Guelwars of Kaabu coming from Kaabu to Sine in the 14th century at least I could understand that because it was at that time the Battle of Turubang (1335) occurred as stated by Sarr, Becker and others. Even the Wolofs were already present long before the 14th century never mind the Serer people who have been present for thousand of years. Further as substantiated in the article with credible sources which all backs up each other, the Almoravid wars on Takrur due to religion (Islam) led to the Serers of Takrur who were finally defeated in Battle to leave Takrur and headed south. That was in the 11th century during Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar and War Jabi. Even those “Takrurien” Serers came south long before the 14th century to join their other Serer relatives (See Daggs).

Link 2.,+according+to+Pierret,+Serer+means+in+Egyptian+%22he+who+determines+the+limits+of+the+temples.%22+This+meaning+conforms+with+the+religious+fervor+of+the+Serer+who+are+today+one+of+the+few+peoples+in+Senegal+who+have+not+yet&dq=Finally,+according+to+Pierret,+Serer+means+in+Egyptian+%22he+who+determines+the+limits+of+the+temples.%22+This+meaning+conforms+with+the+religious+fervor+of+the+Serer+who+are+today+one+of+the+few+peoples+in+Senegal+who+have+not+yet&hl=en&ei=DnlnTpSiDIXagAe1mozYDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA

This link tells us about the meaning of Serer according to Pierret, which tallies with Diop. The article had already address this point with notable sources as evident in the article. However, since there are controversies regarding the meaning of the word, it is relevant to address those as well. Furthermore, since there are sources such as Schuh which contradicts Diop’s thesis, it is relevant and prudent to note those as well. Therefore, the article had accounted for both sides of the argument before your vandalism as discussed earlier.

Link 3

This link is the same as your first link (14th century migration of Serer from the “Northeast” which I have addressed above.

Link 4

This link is not a notable source. In any case, as the notable sources shows, the Serers were already present thousands of years ago and certainly not in 500 AD. Further, the wrongly held view that the Toucouleurs and only the Toucouleurs ruled over Takrur is wrong as evident in La Civilisation Sereer. Cosaan ; La Civilisation Sereer Pangool; Vestiges historiques by Becker.

Link 5

This link is simply quoting Diop which I have already raised above. The article has acknowledged both sides as indicated above.

Link 6

This link like the previous is quoting Diop. Again the article had addressed both sides prior to your vandalism. Further, the “Poular” (Fula) are not “ancient Toucouleurs” the Tocouleurs are not ancient but just like the Wolof a métissage (see Diop and Taal) .

Link 7

This link just like link 4 is not notable. In fact, it copied word for word your 4th link.

The so called Nile Valley or Egyptian origin argument has already been stated in the article before you vandalised it. However, there are other sources which contradicts that claim and it is paramount that they are mentioned too. In fact, along with the ultra traditionalist Serers who want nothing to do with Egypt, other respectable scholars have also refuted Diop's thesis as noted in the article. Issa Laye Thiaw is a well respected Serer scholar on Serer Religion and history. You just vandalised his quotations in order to make a point. In future please discuss your intentions in the talk pages before vandalising Serer related articles. I’m sure like me you want Serer articles to be the best they can possibly be, but vandalising the articles helps nobody more so the general reader who may or may not be of Serer heritage.

Tamsier (talk) 10:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Ah, Tamsier, here we agree with each other. The Egyptian idea is garbage. It seems that for every nation in Africa, there's someone who claims either that they're either a Lost Tribe of Israel or lost Egyptians, with their language written on the pyramids, or sometimes both (as with the Ewe). Very occasionally, there may be some truth to such claims (the Lemba of Mozambique turn out to have Jewish ancestry in the paternal line, for example), but mostly it seems to be insecurity stemming from colonialism. Given the loads of nonsense written on these ideas, we'd need very good sources indeed before accepting them.
However, this is not vandalism. Vandalism is purposefully falsifying data (like saying there are only 36 Serer and they live in Bali), or changing the article to say things like "I love Jody" or "you suck". Adding nonsense because you believe it is just foolishness. Big difference. — kwami (talk) 05:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
  • @ kwami I for one am open minded about the issue hence the reason the article showed both sides with notable sources before all my sources and edits were were deleted regarding this issue. I believe that you Kwami have also deleted Henri Gravrand's report which included historical and archaeological evidence from the pre-history section. I don't know whether that was by mistake or what. The quotes were from a notable sources. Henri Gravrand is also another well respected scholar on Serer history and religion so I don't know whether that quote and sources were deleted by mistake when reverting the IP user's edit or what. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tamsier (talkcontribs) 12:22, 9 October 2011 (UTC) You have been warned. Stop it now.[edit]

I have invited you to the Serer people talk page to discuss and settle our differences but you never showed up, instead you kept on undoing and deleting reliable sources and adding nothing of value to this article. You have deleted all the reliable sources I have cited, copied and pasted some of my sources in order to prove your foolish claims. You have added nothing new to the Serer people article and totally destroyed the "Notes" section with your copying and pasting. You even copied and pasted some of the remarks of Issa Laye Thiaw (the historian I cited) by mistake when deleting my edits which now shows up in the Note section. In your desire to make a foolish point about a Nile Valley migration, you have totally destroyed the credibility of this article. Even your own sources contradicted themselves. You have totally destroyed this article. Why can't you register like all credible people rather than hiding behind an IP address? If your desire is to destroy the Serer people article, you have succeeded. Well done. People have invested a lot of time and effort in this article for you to come here and destroy it. You have been warned. Stop it now.

Tamsier (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)


Someone did not want to leave anything out. It is TOOOOOOOO LONG, even the references is too long. there are guidelines to structure and length of an article. Split it up, create stubs and new pages on History of the Serer People. I cannot read it because of the structure, more over I do not want to read it. It is a turn off.

In future please remember to sign your post per Wiki's policy. It helps everyone which I'm sure you can appreciate. That said your comments and recommendations have been duly noted. Thank you. Tamsier (talk) 03:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Having compared the view history it is apparent that it is user:Halaqah I'm responding to. Again, thank you for your comments and recommendations and remember to sign your posts according to Wiki's policy. As regard to the lenght of the article and sources, have you seen the Islam article? Tamsier (talk) 03:31, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
@ Halaqah - The split template you've put on the Medieval history of the Serer people has been removed for the following reasons:

1. All ethnic groups have a history section under one article and the Serer people should not be denied that. Just because Serer people have a documented pre-history and medieval history does not mean they should be penalised. In fact to ease reading, the two phases of history have been separated as evident in the article. Since by your account you have not taken the time to read the article and "do not want to read it" please refrain from placing templates or passing judgements about articles you have not read.

2. The "medieval history to present" section of the article is virtually all about the Serer people's strong and successful resistance against Islamization and Arabization for almost a thousand years. With respect to Wiki's policy regarding "good faith", it is noteworthy to mention here that Halaqah is a Muslim and wants that section of the article decapitated from the main Serer people' article. Halaqah has of course tried for several years to distant Islam from Islamic slavery in East Africa eventhough substantial evidence proves otherwise (see talk page and Islam and slavery). This is just some of the distortion of Islam by certain Islamists, and the Medieval history of the Serer people they want to mold nicely in order to fit what they deem as acceptable in line with the history of Islam. With respect, the history of the Serer people cannot be molded to dance to the tune of Islam. It never has and never will even if an authorised Administrator finally backs your recommendation. Tamsier (talk) 05:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

We go by sources. If you think that the sources support your position, and you can't work out a settlement, then you can follow the dispute resolution guidelines and present your evidence or invent outside review or comment. One thing that will get you into trouble, though, is using a style that reads like personal opinion rather than reflecting the sources. I have no idea myself; history is not my strong point. — kwami (talk) 06:11, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I would prefer if Tamsier, leave his Islamic fears and editing the editor outside of wikipedia. We can have that debate on a forum. When we come here your views should be limited to the article in question not what you think my personal view on Islam and Slavery is. I actually do not recall doing too much work on Islam and Slavery. People who already have religious, or ethic confidence can live with some bad stuff, or unfavorable reviews. In any event, here are the facts. LENGTH is too long. It can be stubbed and put on a separate page. Dont care what you want to debate, the glory of Islam in Africa, it still has rules. One famous rule you should observe is reliable sources or in the case of this page just sources, cuz right now we dont even have bad sources.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
All the Serer articles are thoroughly sourced and I am sure any person a with a small degree of intellect would realise that. If articles are sourced and certain people are either too lazy or do not have the intellect to read it or in certain cases, explicitly state that they will not read it, then that is their prerogative. I cannot be held responsible for that. I would advise that people take their own advise and comment on the article rather than me personally or spend their entire time trying to wage edit wars against me. It disrupts Wiki and is not good for Wiki. Tamsier (talk) 18:06, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
Do not put back that content it not reliable and verifiable by wiki standards reliable sources, it is not even accurate. Source from better places, and books not out of print. Try John Thorton or Basil Davidson or Molefi Asante. Do not lecture people on wiki after violating NPOV, If this habit of copy editing, propaganda, and NPOV violation as well as advocacy it will disrupt your contributions. You are not adding constructive contributions. And respect Wiki Civility before you get an admin warning again.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 18:15, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Removed content per NPOV[edit]

I have removed this as it is a NPOV and comes across as stereotypical and propaganda. in the interest of transparency I have placed the text I have removed so others can cross check it and comment on or understand my edits. Other edits re-arranged the material to fit a wiki type leade. See Wiki lead for more on how to do that

The Serer people have a reputation among other ethnic groups as hardworking, exceptional farming and fishing skills, honourable and very industrious people especially recently, a profession they looked down on as ignoble and vulgar in the past (that is trade).[1] Highly represented in all major professions including politics, commerce, medicine, literature, law and art, especially in Senegal where they are numerous, has resulted in being referred to as "the true elite of Senegal."[2][3]

--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

  • I see no reason for removing this text which are not only sourced from notable sources, but also relevant in the context used as they outline the characteristics or qualities of the Serer people. We are writing about people after all so their characteristics or qualities which is how others view them is paramount and deserves to be mentioned. Tamsier (talk) 12:30, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Request removal of hatnote[edit]

Please remove the hatnote at the top of the page. Serer is now a DAB page and Rafael Calvo Serer is listed there. noq (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems the hatnote has been removed. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:17, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Diop - What is the issue now[edit]

Edit war over this:

Professor Cheikh Anta Diop proved that the name "Serer" derives from the ancient Egyptian language and that it means "those who trace the lines of the temples."[4](See also Cheikh Anta Diop's work titled: Nations Nègres et culture: de l'antiquité Nègre Égyptienne aux problèmes culturels de l'Afrique noire d'aujourd'hui. 1954).

My principle issue is the word I have highlighted. It is a NPOV issue. Had it said "Diop claims, or proposed that..." then I have no problem with it. And I vote for its inclusion as it is relevant to the Serer people. Plus I love Diop and trust much of his work. Looking at the article I see far more serious nonsense, So applying that threshold I am not to up in arms about this inclusion. --— --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Even with that, it's a matter of WP:WEIGHT. Diop's been debunked. Do we really want to include nonsense in our articles? I suppose if we had many different opinions, it might be worth a very brief mention. But it's not appropriate as the only opinion.
Also, this nonsense about the Serer being the original inhabitants of the area, esp. as we then go on to talk about the people who were there before the Serer. — kwami (talk) 10:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
I will have to look at Diop's argument. And other opinions would be good. It would be good if the IP editor (who might be one of our old friend LOL) explains himself on the talk page ;-]. One of my minor points is had this been a high level article it would def deserve this level of scrutiny but the thing is hardly even C class right now.

but I support the rmv of that original people thing. I mean even without reading you know it makes no sense, they arrived in AD times, are we to believe it was only monkeys and palm tree there b4? --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Just to let you know an editor has re-inserted the Diop stuff again. I didnt undo it, b4 adding new tags. I am looking at this general article and it is so terrible it is not even funny. re:Diop I think it would be better to balance it with a statement as discussed above, since you know the issues with it (better than me) Maybe it is the best soln. up to you. It is just starting to be too much energy divided between too few Jedi on Wiki-- and the quality is slipping, not because we dont see the issues but the energy it takes to fix them all.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ kwami I for one have tried several times to remove that prove word from the IP user when they first put it in as one can see when I told them to stop here [1] as well as inviting them to a discussion here [2] but they never showed up. They also done the same thing at the Wolof people article. Although I have put both sides in the Serer article according to notable sources even including Diop himself (for), the editor in their wisdom left the sources for and deleted the against edits with notable sources such as Schuh and Thiaw. They were all deleted including the sources themselves which is now becoming a regular occurent on Wiki not just by this IP user. I was informed by a reputable editor long ago that if one has a another notable source to that given, one cite their sources underneath rather than deleting the other notable sources. In fact, I believe the original quote was "according to Diop" or something like that, but certainly not "prove". Diop didn't prove anything he merely proposed a theory. Some academics accepted it and others rejected it. Hence the reason my original edits included both sides of the argument on this issue. As regards to the Serer being the "original inhabitants", I can't recall using the word "original". I think the article said "oldest inhabitants" and not "original" which is backed up by several notable sources including Gamble, Salmon and Njie, Dianou, Mwakikagile etc.

Tamsier (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, they could be the oldest surviving population of the area where they reside, but not of Senegambia as a whole. The Wolof may be immigrants in the Serer area, but not where they're from originally. And older than the Balanta? Cangin? Jola? There's no reason to think that all of what falls in the modern boundaries of Senagal was once Serer.
As for Diop, this is pseudohistory. It's not enough to have sources, they need to be reliable, and Diop's been debunked. We should use 2ary sources for any controversial claim. See WP:REDFLAG. — kwami (talk) 18:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ kwami - The article is about the Serer group as a whole as evident in the way treated which was there even before I started editing this page, which makes total sense since the article is about an ethnic group. Interesting you brought in the Jola people. In fact, the orginal opening line referred to the Serer and Jola as the oldest inhabitants which was backed up by some of the above sources whilst some of the other sources only referred to the Serer. Hence the reaaon why there were more sources cited than might be necessary to avoid any doubt or accusation that one is trying to "cook it up". However, all those sources and edits have now been deleted with the constant war on this article and others by certain editors. The Jola issue is very interesting (see Kal - Joking relationship section) they are linked to the Serer by blood according to oral legend of both groups (the legend of Jambonge and Ougeney (sometimes spelt Eugeny) see Taal and Mwakikagile. Since I had already dealt with the Jola issue (which has now been deleted thanks to the edit wars), there was no need to talk about the legend of Jambonge and Ougeney here inspite of the fact that, there are sources for that. Besides I personally did not have the time but somebody else may decide to that if they so wish. Further, since this is an article about Serer people, there was no point in referring to the Jola again unless relevant since the opening statement on this issue had already done that.

As regards to Diop, as you can see on my discussion (see top section) I am very opened minded about the issue and tried to put both sides of the argument. Regardless of my opinions about Diop, Diop is a highly respected scholar and is quoted and requoted by several respected scholars i.e Pierret etc. The only thing I personally think (but up to others to decide) is in favour of Diop is the archaeological report by Gravrand in Pangool couple of years after Diop's death which some historians claim vindicate Diop's thesis. Gravrand is one of the most respected scholars and authors on Serer history and religion. His report was based on archaeological evidence and the reports of pre-historians which backs up Becker. That too (Gravrand) has been deleted. It was there to avoid any accusations of withholding information for the "for side" of the argument to balance out the "against side" of the argument with sources such as Schuh. The ethnomym section was under developement because it is a very controversial issue with two warring sides. The ultra traditionalist Serers who wants nothing to do with Egypt and in leak with the "against" scholars and the "for" scholars on the other side. Tamsier (talk) 00:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, if Diop's been picked up in 2ary sources, it might be worthwhile to add him in. Per WP:WEIGHT and WP:REDFLAG, though, I'd expect some serious support: if there were any real evidence that the Serer built the pyramids, that fact would be in every book on African history. It's not. I don't know about Gravrand, but I have noticed that when linguists make an argument for something, such as peoples X and Y being related, archeologists and anthropologists tend to be completely uncritical in accepting it. Then when the linguists decide that better data shows that languages X and Y aren't related after all, you're left with archeological claims built up around a spurious X–Y people. This even extends to psychologists trying to accommodate Chomskyan linguistics despite it being cognitively implausible. Very few scholars seem to know enough about linguistics to evaluate linguistic claims. I don't know about a historian evaluating archeological evidence, but suspect it might be similar. If you look at the politics surrounding something like the Lemba, with purportedly respected scholars saying all sorts of things about the Bantu having or not having built Great Zimbabwe, with genetic evidence, contradictory archeological, cultural, & historical claims, etc., much of it motivated by politics or ethnic identity / racism, and then look all the other people who claim it was their ancestors who built the pyramids / were the lost tribe of Israel / etc, I think we need to be very careful: Diop's linguistic claims as represented in 2ary linguistic sources, his archeological claims in 2ary archeological sources, etc.: the standards we'd expect for something like astrology. — kwami (talk) 02:16, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ kwami - I can't recall Diop making a big issue about who did or who didn't built the Pyramids. I think the issue is more about the word "Serer" as evident (well previously evident in the article). No mention was made on the article about who built the Pyramids but only the supposed meaning of the word according to Diop and his admires like Pierret and the like. With respect and fairness to Diop, I think that is what needs to be focused on irrespective of my views or anybody's view on his work. Not who built or didn't built the Pyramids. Nevertheless, I too feel we need to be cautious as evident in my edits above and on the article regarding the issue hence the provision for both sides of the argument. As for Gravrand, he is a well respected scholar and specialist on Serer history and religion. Many of his archaelogical references are made from the excavations reports of Cyr Descamps, Guy Thilmans, Y. Thommeret, Henri Lhote etc. Some of Gravrand's work include:
1. La civilisation Sereer, Pangool
2. Les civilsation Sereer Cosaan, Origines
3. Mythes et rites religiux Sereer
4. Les Droits de l'Homme au temps de Mbegan Ndour (15th century) en pay Sereer
5. L'Ethique Sereer
6. Le Symbolism Sereer: Mythe du Saas et Symboles
7. Classes sociales Sereer
8. Dynamisme Sereer das le Sénègal Moderne.

Etc etc etc. They are all to many to. Most of his work has been cited by scholars like Amad Faye; Issa Laye Thiaw; Salif Dione; Marguerite Dupire; Martin A. Klein; Simone Kalis; Charles Becker; Victor Martin, etc. Tamsier (talk) 05:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Okay, but my point is that if Diop made a linguistic claim, such as the etymology of the name Serer, then we should base our coverage on the reaction in linguistic RS's. What a scholar of history or comparative religion thinks of it is not terribly illuminating. That is, when considering sources, we consider whether they're qualified to address the point, not whether they're well respected in some other field. Same as in any field: if there's a controversial medical claim, we use medical sources to cover it. We could use Gravrand for, say, Serer beliefs about the medical efficacy of herbal remedies. But we'd need a medical ref in order to claim that they're actually effective. — kwami (talk) 06:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
  • With respect to Gravrand, he didn't cite Diop as a source as indicated previously. Indeed when looking at sources one must bear in mind whether they are qualified to address the issue, which these people are qualified in their respective fields. One is at liberty to do more research about their qualifications. Their books are peer reviewed and cited which was the essence of my point. As for Descamp etc, they are also qualified in their field. Unless I am mistaken, I see nothing wrong in one citing their work in passing in their book since they are qualified in their field. In fact, we do a similar thing here at Wiki. For example if you are citing Issa Laye Thiaw on Serer religion, it would be rather foolish of me to ask for speedy deletion of the article just because you are not Issa Laye Thiaw (who is qualified and a scholar in this field) Tamsier (talk) 07:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

POV and "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tags[edit]

  • The editor who put these tags especially the "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tag in the Medieval history section should support their case here with sources. Putting any old tag on Serer related articles without discussing it on the talk pages is unprofessional. All the sources mentioned in the Medieval history section are from notable sources most of whom are are well known and highly respected within the field such as Diouf, Klein, Gravrand, Asante etc. These people are not advocacy or lobbying groups, but professional historians many of whom have authored dozens of books. If you have any evidence to prove otherwise, please bring it here so people can scrutinize it. Tamsier (talk) 13:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I am going to allow a grace on this section and suggest the person who wrote it to clean it up per wikipedia NPOV policy. It would be better they do it than I do it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 14:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • You are the one who placed the "relies extensively on quotes that were previously collated by an advocacy or lobbying group" tag on this article. Perhaps it would help if you tell us why you have placed that template with sources so that people can have a understanding why you deem it fit to place such a template on the article in particular. Tamsier (talk) 14:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I see you have now removed the tag without justifying why you placed it there in the first place. Tamsier (talk) 17:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Cleaning up NPOV violations of Medieval history to present[edit]

This section is too long and once clean will see how to split it up. But the commentary is being taken out. We just need the history per the sources. I will review the sources from New Perspectives on Islam in Senegal. Because at first glance the way it is used here is very different to how the actual book reads. So it becomes synth when we cherry pick for advocacy reasons. Dont worry I have three excellent books to add to the ref God Alone Is King : Islam and Emancipation in Senegal : The Wolof Kingdoms of Kajoor and Bawol, 1859-1914 (Social History of Africa). and Muslim Societies in African History (New Approaches to African History), not to mention the best book yet edited by Randall L. Pouwels. Funny thing is none of these 3 books take this tone.

What I am noticing is despite being a very long article on a very small ethnic group. What is happening is duplicated information from the same sources. Daggs (who I will need to verify), Klein and another person. The info repeats over and over again the agenda of the editor who was blocked for advocacy and other behaviors. It seems to have one agenda, not to discuss the history of the people, but to insert Islam as a problem. The history is not a mystery, it is not hidden. But this article should deal with that once and move on, not in every section. It should also reflect the source and I will bring in the balance where needed. Moreover we do not need the author comments between the referenced material.

Below is evidence of what I am removing

  • In any case, all these false accounts against the Serer people surfaced after 18 July 1867
  • any respect Saer Matti may have had from the Serer Ultra Orthodox people turned to dust when he exercised such cowardice (it is clearly a statement I would expect in a forum or an article)
  • the Islamic wars that had ravaged Takrur in the 11th century which led to Serer migration from Takrur only relates to those Serer people living in Takrur at the time.
  • For those Serers that remained, they will face constants wars brought on by the Almoravids and their African converts who have allied with them. Stubbornly attached to their religion, the Serers of Takrur continued to resist Islam throughout the medieval era before their full exodus to Sine-Saloum and old Baol. (this opinion is repeated maybe 6 times all over the page)
  • In Sine, the Serers lived in peace and practised their religion (good guys tone)
  • As followers of the Orthodox Serer Religion, they looked down at those who engage in slave trading. - No they killed their captives (women and children included)
  • As regards to Saer Matti Bâ (son of Maba) another jihadist, too much credit is given to the French which led to his defeat at the Battle of Kumbof 1886 which forced him to seek the protection of the British governor in The Gambia where he would later die.
  • Such false account that the Guelwars conquered Sine was invented by certain Senegambian Muslims e.g. Wolof, Fula, Toucouleur and to a lesser extend the Mandinkas. (guess who added this? certainly no Wolof).

I will not waste my time critique what is clearly the work of an advocate.But I am putting it here as evidence. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 15:16, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Interesting. I also have those books in my library. In fact I was reading Searing only last week after you instigated for an administrator to block me two weeks ago. I glad to work with anyone who is "sincere" about making Serer related articles better or Senegambian or African articles better than they are. Happy editing and remember protocol: "never delete an edit with notable source, if you have a different source, cite it underneath". As for the additional tags you have added to the Medieval history section, I shall deal with those in my own time.

My advise, do refrain from the name calling. It is unprofessional. Tamsier (talk) 16:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

I am removing yet again the following:

Professor Cheikh Anta Diop proved that the name "Serer" derives from the ancient Egyptian language and that it means "those who trace the lines of the temples."
Numerous scholars have worked on the case of the origin of Serers, and as a result, it has been found that the Serers originate in the Nile Valley. The Serers migrated away from the Nile Valley onto Senegal at 300 B.C.E.

You might want to check my talk page for the intellectual level of the person who added these. Funny, Diop is Serer and concludes that the pyramids were built by Serer. I've heard Ewe scholars who, funny enough, think that they weren't Serer but Ewe. It's easy to dig up refs for pseudohistory, but that's not acceptable in an encyclopedia. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and if either of these claims were convincing, we'd find them all over the place. — kwami (talk) 17:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah just saw the remark. I didnt know he was Serer I thought Diop was Wolof. I would agree with such a large claim it needs something else. And would by now have a heavy academic debate thread following it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 17:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I shouldn't have said that. He comes from a Serer area, but that doesn't mean he is Serer. — kwami (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ kwami I have responded to you (see above - top) regarding that user IP sentiment about Diop. By the way Diop is neither Serer nor Wolof but Lebou. The surname Diop or Jobe (English spelling is Lebou). The Lebous are associated with the Wolof but totally distinct.

Tamsier (talk) 17:39, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Comment The person who added that may not be a Serer at all. They have also made their way in the Wolof people article. Tamsier (talk) 17:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Truth is truth, there is nothing you dumbasses can do to change the fact that the Serer people originate in the Nile Valley, they migrated from there onto west Africa in 300 B.C.E. They were temple and pyramid builders in ancient Egypt and ancient Sudan, thus is why "Serer" means "those who trace the lines of the temples". You can attempt to continue to hide these facts but I will continue to pulverize the bullshit you all post about the origin of Serers. If you're not African(or if you're a Euro-centric "African"), leave African history alone. We(meaning, those whom are actually African), are the only ones truly in position to speak about African history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MenAfuraka (talkcontribs) 19:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

There's plenty we can do about it: we can WP:block you for disrupting the encyclopedia. Wikipedia isn't about what you imagine to be WP:truth, it's about what we can document. — kwami (talk) 22:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ (User:MenAfuraka - Hi, I am glad that you are passionate about this subject and others. But as a brotherly advise, I would recommend you read all the messages left for you on your talk page here [3] before responding to any editor or making any further edit on Wiki especially the Serer people article. I have also left you there a message which I hope you will take into account. I don't want to see you get into trouble. Also, do not allow youself to sink so low by using this kind of language. Back up your argument with sources and leave it at that. Please read your messages and cool down. Tamsier (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

The deletion of notable sources by Halaqah - Pro Islam pushing[edit]

This editor (Halaqah) keeps deleting notable sources and refusing to follow protocol[4]. After I have repeated told them if they have a different source to the sources cited, they should edit underneath and cite their sources rather than deleting the previous edits which are sourced with notable sources. Yet they still continue to delete notable sources and edits and replacing them with sources that agree with their view. It is much easier to change the wording of content than having to locate previously used sources as it require lots of work and time. I have no problem people using different sources as long as they are notable etc, what I cannot understand is why this editor keeps deleting notable sources and edits that shows Islam in a negative light then accuse editors of being anti islam? Talk about NPOV! If the Serer people didn't have a good experience in their medieval to 19th century history with Islam, I can't understand why it should be sugar coated to suite one's sensitivities. If the Serer people had a negative historical experience with Islam, it should be brought up in the article. Had they had a positive experience, it would have been brought up. This is not about NPOV pushing or violation or being anti Islam but basic common sense. I am sure there are other people who had a very postive Islamic experience in their medieval history, but the Serers are not one of them per the sources cited as well as oral tradition. Trying to sugar coat it is actually for the benefit of Islam and does great disservice to Serer history and an insult to the Serer people's ancestors who sacrificed their lives to preserve the Serer religion, culture and tradition. With respect, I really do not have the time nor the energy arguing about the same old thing with this editor. I would like to know what other editors think about this - particular Serers and non Muslims. Tamsier (talk) 05:27, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

If you said Pro-African pushing you might actually be correct to the history of what I have been doing for 6 years on wikipedia. This is a first. No edit the article please not my apparent agenda. You cannot find one edit i did that insults, degrades Serer people. Like i said, and I will say again, I have no issue with the imperialistic Aspect of Islam & Serer, it is not a secret. I accept it as one of the exceptions. Where it was a bad history in some cases, but not all.As you admitted much of the fighting had nothing to do with religion. So i have no plans of masking anything-- I want the truth. I believe the article still says "They were resistant to Islam, and retained their beliefs" what it doesn't need to say is "they resisted this foreign religion brought by Arabized people who betrayed their indigenous faith". You see my contributions to wikipedia, there are no secrets from which i need to verify my dedication to quality. Oh and that book by Klein, is being used out of context, he certainly does not take the POV tone displayed in current edits in dispute.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:40, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

traditional religion[edit]

Re. the edit war over %ages of various religions, we need RS's. We follow what they say. Ethnologue has "Traditional religion, Muslim, Christian", suggesting that a plurality are traditional, but no figs are given. The %age of Islam was given while citing the Joshua Project as a source, and the JP says, Most Sereer adhere to traditional beliefs while some have converted to Islam and others are Roman Catholic. The Sereer have been very gradual in accepting religions outside of their traditional beliefs. Even though people claim to have accepted Islam there are still many traditional beliefs included. Combining these two systems of beliefs is called "folk Islam".[5] I'm not sure either really counts as a RS, but they are suggestive. — kwami (talk) 06:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Exactly! This is why I removed the percentages cited by Halaqah and brought to their attention in the edit summary that Joshua Project in that regard is not reliable. That is why I am very reluctant to add percentages to the number of followers of Serer religion yet, but this Halaqah in their wisdom considered it right to do so in order to show a higher percentage of Islam followers. Even if you go by Joshua Project as you can see for yourself, the key words are "some have converted" couple with the fact that, it had contradicted itself by saying Most people adhere to the traditional beliefs then gave a higher percentage to Muslim section (which Halaqah used) this is certainly not RS as far as this issue is concerned. I am actually not in favour of adding percentages yet because even those who converted to Islam and Christianity still revere the Serer religion to some degree.

By the way it was I who changed Halaqah's edit. I thought I was signed on but I wasn't it was after posting I realised I wasn't signed on. Tamsier (talk) 06:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, the only way to give religions is in how people identify themselves. How would we decide on a religious test, and how would we administer it? I know more about Islam than many Muslims I've met, but that doesn't mean we don't count them as Muslims. And few Christians actually believe the fundamentals of Christianity, but that doesn't mean we don't count them as Christians. This isn't just in Senegal, but all across Africa and really the whole world. In southern Benin, for example, Christians believe in Vodun, they just don't practice it. I think the way to approach this is to note that what we are counting as Muslim or Christian is largely syncretistic. As for %ages, I agree that JP does not look like an adequate source. In the table, for example, they say that the primary religion of the Serer is Islam, at the same time as saying that most Sere are animists. — kwami (talk) 07:23, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
No JP is not a good source and I will remove it pending a better source. My Issue is JP has an agenda. I came across them when checking the edit which one editor put in. But They seemed very keen on JP when one editor used it to say Muslims were a tiny tiny percentage. (i never knew JP up until then). See the edit history for this edit. Now here is what I do know. Go and look at all the notable Seer, start with NDour, what is his religion? 100% Muslim. What I am realizing is most Serer are Muslim people. Synergistic is not unique to Africa, it is in every corner of the planet where Islam and Christianity live. So Islam accommodates this, all the key historian on Islam say this. especially David Robinson and others. Vodon per Kwami is a good example. Even in the Caribbean - google Jesus in the morning Vodon in the evening. These people are classified as Christian. I do not think we will get exact stats but should not go with the POV that most Serer practices their religion, which is a myth. It is the same in Ethiopia (which i know something about) When the animist holiday comes everyone is there, when eid of Meskal comes, well they are there to. However Islam and Christianity define most people. And when you ask them this is what they will say. See this book.The resistance to Islam was a thing of the past I do not think it is the case today--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
[6] 44% ATR, 40% Muslim, .6% Protestant. "Originally animist by religion, they (the Serer) are now becoming increasingly either Muslim or Roman Catholic" (EB, 856). While far more accurate can we trust a missionary site for stats on religion? I will hold off on any stats either way until it is discussed here first. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 08:26, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • How strange! All of a sudden JP has an agenda yet it did not stop the editor using it. Even if "one editor" put it in, it was balanced out with other sources that only commented but never did any editor started to put in percentages until Halaqah put it in. There was a reason for that, non of the sources gave actual percentages apart from JP. However, JP did redeem itself by disclaiming that the figures are not accurate. However in the text version, it provide a direct link of the source which collaborate "most Sereers adhere to traditional beliefs..."

Again this editor is passing an opinion. This article never denied that there were Serer muslims. Just because Youssou Ndour is Muslim all of a sudden all Serers are 100% muslims? And what do you mean 100% muslim? Are you talking about orthodox? If you are how do you know Youssou Ndour is 100% muslim? Youssou could also be one of those Serer muslims who also revere the Serer religion to a certain degree and mix it with Islam which is very common in Senegalese muslim populations as well as Gambian muslim populations in fact in many parts of Africa. In the case of Senegal for instance:

"Elements of animism have also found their way into the practice of Islam" (Source: Anthony Ham. West Africa Lonely Planet West Africa, p672. 7th Edition. Published by Lonely Planet, 2009. ISBN 1741048214)

Even you have said a similar thing in your analysis above. You also claim that: "The resistance to Islam was a thing of the past I do not think it is the case today." You then provided us your link to justify your statement. I had to scroll further down to find a reference to Serer people and here is a snippit (click on link above):

Note 37: "The Sereer were truly non-Muslims by the fact that they followed the precepts of Sereer religion and did not claim to be Muslims. Until the colonial period, the Sereer put up a stiff resistance to Islamization that they also associated with Wolofization."

There are two issues here:

1. Could it by any chance be that the Serer people no longer needed to "resist Islam" (meaning going to war in the Serer case see Klein, Sarr, Diouf and Becker) since the last jihad that affected them was the Battle of Kumbof (also "Goumbof" of "Coumbof")? (See Martin A. Klein. Islam and Imperialism in Senegal, p135, 138-41. Also see Alioune Sarr. Histoire du Sine Saloum).

2. As regards to whether they still are resistance, what we do know is that there are no more Islamic jihads in modern day Senegal or Gambia. Therefore there is no need for going to war against Islam. But according to certain scholars (see quotations below):

I. "The Serer are among the most traditional people in Senegambia. They have been among the most reistant to Islam, often continuing today to follow traditional beliefs" (Source: Elizabeth L Berg, Ruth Wan. Senegal. Cultures of the World. Volume 17, p63. 2nd Edition. Published by: Marshall Cavendish, 2009. ISBN 0761444815)
II. "But Christians are a small minority among the Serer in The Gambia and Senegal just like in all the other indigenous ethnic groups in the reigion. Many Serers still follow their traditional religious beliefs." (See Godfrey Mwakikagile. The Gambia and its People: Ethnic Identities and cultural integration in Africa, p133).
III. "Maba Diakhou, the fighter of the faith died in the land of Sine without ever managing to Islamized the country deeply rooted in centuries old belief. The glorious epic of Islam in the land of Senegambia did not spread to "Ceddo" (Animist) Sine, who were determined to reject forever the religion that threatened the faith of their forefathers and to rule their lives in defiance of their customs. The Sine is an impregnable bastion of the anti-Islamic." (I.D. Thiam. Maba Diakhou Ba Almamy du Rip (Sénégal), Paris, ABC, Dakar-Abidjan, NEA, 1977, p44. See also Cheikh Diouf . Fiscalité et Domination Coloniale: l'exemple du Sine: 1859-1940. Université Cheikh Anta Diop de Dakar - (2005)).

Tamsier (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:AGF If you want to continue to use this talk page successful I will ask you to assume good faith I am getting a little tired of the remarks. Do not tell me my agenda, nor try to tell me any "all of a sudden" foolishness. It is a waste of time per wiki policy. Who was it that put the Joshua link in the article? The issue with trying to edit and editor is you are not a very good mindreader and it is taking away from working on this article. You will be reported if you continue. If your position has merit it will be cleared up here, not by trying to insult my African intentions. The proof is in the eating, look at the b4 and after article and tell me about agendas.

I do not know why their resistance stopped and I suspect the decline of Jihad is one possibility, not to mention as Seagal (I think said) Socialization increased in the days following colonialism. Where Islam vs, the new "White" religion. Islam Won out b/c it was seen as more local (Asante).(Robinson). I have no problem accommodating both positions. Although I suspect 85% Muslims in Sengal, 10% Christians doesnt leave a lot of room for 14% Sereer being majority non-Abrahamic. So houston we have a problem. So the debate is over "MOST", if both arguments are presented then it is balance. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 11:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

  • I agree with kwami in that Muslim and Christian populations in many parts of Africa is Syncretism with the old African religion. There are two camps, those who Syncretise with Islam or Christianity and those who don't. As for percentages, until we find reliable sources about percentages, we should not put it here. I think this discussion should be in the Serer religion article because it affects it. I will put a link on the talk page.

@ Halaqah, I do not have the energy.

Tamsier (talk) 11:47, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

In good faith I have added your references. as i see no issue with some of the arguments.(that is the main thing here) I dont think we will get pure stats due to syncretization. And at best it should be noted in the article. Most Africans mix, esp in Senegal with all of the maroubout and sainthood going on.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 11:51, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • @ Halaqah - Thank you. Finally we agree on something. Who would have thought. Tamsier (talk) 11:57, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
Someone added "majority Muslims" (and in Serer religion) without going through this discussion. I have balanced it out per the sources cited.Senegambianamestudy (talk) 21:47, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Medieval history to present[edit]

In good faith, I have re-edited and reformated the Serer people's medieval history to present section with a lead in case there is a need to split it from the main article. Subsections of the Medieval history to present include:

  • Opposition to the Almoravids and Islamization
  • The death of the Almoravid leader: Abu-Bakr Ibn-Umar
  • The effects of the religious wars in Tekrur
  • Independence and destruction of the Ghana Empire
  • King N'Diadian N'Diaye of Djoloff (Jolof)
  • Senegambia and the death of the Mansa Jolofing
  • Turubang and Guelowar refuges to Sine
  • The effects of Islam in Senegambia and anti-Serer sentiments
  • The last Serer Kings

Tamsier (talk) 22:10, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

NPOV is a serious issue. And an article is not quality in any wiki standard b/c of this section. I actually think if written properly and reduced to notable info it would not need to be split. The other issue is all of these quotations according to: followed by according to: We dont need their opinion to be the bulk of the content. Thats why we have references to their books. Info only needs to be mentioned once. No where should "fiercely" be in the article. No where should text be bold for no reason. Its not encyclopedic. And reference cannot all favor the Serer position. And the test for quality A class article is dead simple. Balance. Look at any A-Class article. I have not read ONE good thing about Islam in this section. Strange b/c then what I am getting is Islam = Bad. Thats not Wiki purpose. And that needs to be fixed. And no source should be used which contradicts the majority view, esp when it is not balanced. Islam was certainly not divisive per every book on my shelf. No more so than being Amhara and non-Amhara is divisive in Ethiopia. No more so than being Griot class and non-Griot class, Rich and poor, Royalty and peasant, Serer and non-Serer. It is also very narrow that a peoples history seems to exist exclusively around fighting Islam. Is there nothing else? Cuz the bulk of the text is a history of reaction. Logic says more people are likely to read something the more balanced it is and the easier it is to read. repeating info and adding in redundancy is appealing to passionate readers-- but not to anyone else. I strongly suggest reading other wiki articles and following the tone and style. and more than 1/2 this info should be edited out. In 100% honesty I would love to know about the Serer people but struggle to gain any info despite reading this section over and over again. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:23, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I don't know whether you have read the article after your deletion but you've left some incomplete sentences etc i.e. the deletion of the leading scholar on Serer religion - Thiaw etc: [7].

Where appropriate, scholars are directly quoted. Not only for obvious reasons, but after the numerous tags placed on this section on every other sentence, I was actually forced to cite sources for almost every sentence which is a total joke. I don't even see this in the A-Class articles you speak of. I noticed you mention Ndiadiane Njie in your edit summary. He was a Serer of the medieval era that's the reason he was added. You have also removed the leading scholar on Ndiadiane and remarks about people claiming false genealogy, which is Samba Diop etc. Since false genealogy to Arabs by certain muslim communities in Senegal (not all) is very life and kicking, and since you have deleted the leading scholars citations in this area which is relevant to this article, perhaps you can tell us how you intend to address this issue because it is very relevant to this article. Serer people was bracketed [ ] not bolded, but because it's the Serer people article, it comes up as bold. The reason for bracketing is so it turns to "Serer people" article if splited. If the article is not split, well the brackets can be removed, if it is split, it turns to Serer people, if it makes no difference after spliting, brackets can be removed. Per your edit summary, I did not write a personally essay on Abu bakr, I only provided what the sources say. Islam may not have been divisive for the Muslim communities but in the Serer case (per sources and tradition) it is. Since we are writing an article for Serer people, we would be concealing facts if we do not mention it. For the muslim communities, Islam may have been a very unifying religion. If you want me to add that, I can add that no problem, but the Serer experience should also be accounted for. Serer people's history does not fully exist around fighting Islam as the whole article shows. As stated in the lead in Medieval history to present, it does say "partly characterized". Although not the only part of Serer medieval history, as seen in Turubang; Mansa Jolofing; kingdoms etc, it is also a major part of Serer medieval history which still have implications today and failure to address that would be concealling the facts. Not only did people die, but it also resulted in the Serers of Tekrur migration southwards to join their distant relatives etc which are important parts of people's history and merits to be added. Perhaps it may be useful instead of deleting sources, to post here the statements that you think needs rephrasing. Once we all agree on the phrasing, it can be inputted in the relevant section. In this case, it saves every body's time and avoids edit mistakes like above.

Tamsier (talk) 05:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Fixed edit errors i.e. incomplete sentences and punctuation mark (,) [8].

Tamsier (talk) 13:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Time is a luxury, I am sure I will make mistakes in cleaning up what is a very poor section. Feel free to speed up what has to be done, by correcting these mistakes. But you will find it better to let me clean it up and get it up to standard. And then once the article is at least B class spend time debating. It is how most editors work. The first issue above any fine debates is the quality. It is very important to remove information. Wiki is about summarized info, not excessive detail. If it was the case then lets just copy all of Kleins book into this article. Nothing should repeat. And all the redundant things about peoples names and extra info needs to be history. Everything in red link should be gone. A less sympathetic editor could tear this apart had the topic been more notable. Actually they would just delete a lot more than I am doing. Contrary to popular belief quality is not a subjective thing on wiki. I seriously think you should look at what I have said and go over the problem areas. One reason this is your topic, your expertise, your focus on wiki. I am editing far more content in my area of expertise to dedicate time to what i see as editing someones essay. hence I will read it and just chop anything that fails. Summarize the excessively long content. rmv the essay like tone and the NPOV issues. You should by now realize that NPOV means the so-called Muslim position should balance the article. or the non-Serer position or there should be "not all good" reference to Serer. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 01:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

R.S Gravrand Edit war=[edit]

Is there not an editor war over this persons opinions Henry Gravrand. La Civilisation Sereer-Pangool? So how do they know the history goes back 1000 of years? And with regard to the ongoing edit war (Men Africa). i do not believe the new user is going to stop and maybe some sort of protection is in order. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:28, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I thought Gravrand was addressed here [9], well at least no one commented after my last entry. Gravrand is a very reliable source and all his books see link are peer reviewed. As for how we know history go back 1000s of years (lol), see Charles Becker; Cyr Descamps, Guy Thilmans and Thommeret; Simon Kalis, Thiaw, Diouf etc. Though I agree that people are edit warring on the pre-history which needs to be sorted, I think editors should reach a conclusion on the link above where it was originally discussed. Discussions are being started and no conclusions are being reached at least no obvious conclusion so that every one knows. Tamsier (talk) 06:12, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


  • Focus on medieval section esp Turubang and Guelowar refuges to Sine and Accounts of Serer people(I challenge anyone to actually read that)
  • Clean up essay like tone
  • Remove ALL red links to non-existent articles
  • Reduce text significant and summerize, remove excessive detail which is specialist (it should be 25 percent)WP:LENGTH
  • Reduce "According to:" thats what reference are for.
  • Cut out all repeating content. If the point has been made dont need another person to say the samething.
  • Balance means the article should not seem to defend Serer people but report history in a professional tone. Hence we would expect some "positive" opinions on Islam and some "negative" things on Serer. (hard to do when you are too close to a subject). Professional distance is thus critical.
  • Should match other Class A articles on other ethnic groups. (therefore considering the demographic of Serer people it would be strange if this article has in more content than say Amhara or Zulu people)

--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

  • Was editing the page and adding more sources yesterday but when I pressed save, "Edit conflict" occurred and I lost everything. May be another day. Not now. I haven't got the time or the energy especially the deletes you are making without even reading your edits. I can't make out the head or the tail in certain sections. Too many mistakes and everytime I come to this article there is something new that greets me. I' haven't got the time or the energy. Got other things to concentrate on. Done what I could for this article. May be another day, but not now. Over to you. Happy editing.

Tamsier (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I dont work for you, nor do i edit your essays for you. that is your job. i gave you the list, you want to toy around then let the content come out until you have time to re-write it per wiki standards. That way the article is not compromised and your time and more importantly my time is not wasted. If you dont know help when you see it then i cant help. I will just deal with the hard rules of wiki. No Synth and neither are essays. hard to complain about typos when the essay is not there anymore.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 21:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Exactly the type of response I would have espected from you. Putting any tag onto articles is so easy but actually editing articles but more so a specialist subject like history is not so easy. Is it? You do not have the knowledge or the expertise. For the attention of other editors, I have edited the article. Of course it can be improved, any article can be improved. As one can see in the edit history of the article, this disruptive editor only copied parts of the article they took issue with and pasted them below (see "Add back when meets wiki standards") per my advise when they started deleting sources and edits and left incomplete sentences. Apart from that, they haven't touched the article since then.

Tamsier (talk) 12:17, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Rmv excess redundant type content[edit]

I have just chopped this. I have put it here for any other editors to comment on, because my gut tells me it is off no value to wiki.

There are several anti-Serer sentiments for example the claim that the Fulas drove out the Serers from Futa Toro (formerly Tekrur) in the 19th century and enslaved them; the Tondyon dynasty of Takrur that succeeded the Dyaago dynasty of Takrur in the 14th century were Serers and that "Tondyon" in Mandinka means "crowned slave"; and the Serers were mixing with the Portuguese in the 15th century and were responsible for mixed people in Senegambia etc. According to historical sources, the Serers of Tekrur left Tekrur in the eleventh century and the Fulas and Toucouleurs resided there,(if true then why is it not in the history summary, what is it being doing random here? who says they are anti-serer? this is serer opinion not NPOV)[5][6] therefore it begs the question how could the Fulas have driven out Serers from Futa (previously Tekrur) in the 19th century when the Serers have left almost eight hundred years earlier? In similarity, how could the Serers have set up a Tondyon dynasty in the 14th century when they have already left three hundred years earlier?(I am vindicated, the wiki article is asking the reader a question - talk about essay like) --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

  • To the contrary. More like style that any body can edit. The sources had already been cited and anti Serer sentiments are addressed in the context of those sources etc. As regards to Serer people of Tekrur living Tekrur in the 11th century, that had already been mentioned even before the reformatting of Medieval history. It is also mentioned in the relevant section long before anti Serer sentiments. It seems like you don't read. You have also decapitated several content which has resulted to incomplete sentences etc. Here is an example under "Accounts of Serer people":
"Some of his accounts are as follows:"

Who are you quoting here? This is just one of many errors I bearly have the time to go through and fix. If you are going to delete stuff at least take the time to read your edit and ensure huge errors like this never happen again. One or two mistakes is understandable but always the same mistakes about the same subject matter ("Serer related articles") seems very strange. Try the "Show preview" button, read it before you hit "Save page". If you can't be bothered, express your concerns here so people who really care about the article can fix it rather than deleting things and living incomplete sentences everywhere. You have also deleted "The effects of Islam in Senegambia and anti-Serer sentiments" and renamed it to something else which actually conceals why there are such anti Serer sentiments. By removing Islam from it (the root cause) the effect (intentionally or not) is to confuse the general reader. Even I as one of the editors on this article was left confused after reading that section of your edit. Anti-Serer sentiments are rooted in Isalam the religion that the "majority" of Senegalese and Gambians follow, per the sources including Thiaw etc which you have deleted, and was even going to add more but now I can't tell the head from the tail after your edits. Islam is the direct root and by removing that root, you have confused the reader. Anti Serer sentiments especially when it concerns the deformation of their history is critical to this article and certainly merits to be addressed. There is no point trying to protect Islamic sensitivities. We are not here for that. You have also renamed the previous section to "The effects of Islam on Serer people". Can't you see the patronising tone of this? You choose such a title because ...? Either you change it or I will change it. Tamsier (talk) 20:36, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I honestly dont think your confrontation is of any use to wikipedia, i will warn you again to contribute. I have previously warned you about this attitude. You wrote this stuff, didnt you? well it doesnt belong on wiki period. fix it and then add it back. How dare someone write junk and then tell me to edit it. It doesnt belong here in the first place. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 21:07, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Add back when meets wiki standards[edit]

I have tolerated this essay garbage for the last time. i outlined what had to be done but it is being toyed with. It has now been placed here to be re-edited and put back when it meets wiki policy per above. comments. That way the article is not comprimised by essays.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Turubang and Guelowar refuges to Sine[edit]

In the first half of the 14th century, some Mandinkas came from Kaabu to live in Sine. These Mandinkas are members of the Guelowar (many spelling variations: Gelwar; Geulwar, Gelwaar etc) royal family of Kaabu (in modern day Guinea Bissau - sometimes spelt Gabou). They were blood relatives of the Nyancho royal dynasty of Kaabu and descendants of Mansa Tiramang Trawally (many variations also: "Tira Makhang Trawally"; "Tiramanghan Trawally"; "Tiramang Traore") of Mali.[7][8] They left Kaabu following the massacre of Turubang in 1335AD.[9][10] "Turubang" in Mandinka language means to wipe out a clan or family (cleansing). Just as in pre-colonial Senegal, there were different noble maternal clans e.g. Joos, Wagadou, Tedyek, Sai, etc who can marry into the paternal dynasties e.g. Faye, Joof, Njie, etc, Kaabu also had different noble maternal clans e.g. Nyancho, Guelowar etc. Different maternal clans will fight to death in order to marry off their daughters, sisters and nieces into the royal family and ensured the continuation of their maternal clan.[11] Once they arrived in Sine, the council of Lamans occupied by the Serer nobility granted them asylum. In addition to being granted asylum, they will cohabit with the Serer aristocracy. The reasons for that was political, economic and social. They were of royal stock just as their Serer hosts. It was political because the Mali Empire was not far away. Having a Mandinka political ally was a strategic move on the part of the Serer Lamans. These Guelowar royals were of the same family as that of the royal family of Mali (they are distant relatives)[12]. However, before any relationship between Serer - Guelowar, these Mandinka royals will learn the Serer language, pledged allegiance to the Serer Gods and Goddesses, loyalty to the Serer Kingdom of Sine (and later Kingdom of Saloum) as well as to the Serer people. That was the deal before any intermarriage between Serer - Guelowar. In return, the children of these Mandinka women and Serer men will inherit the throne. These children in time will be authentic Serers with loyalty to Sine and later Saloum and not Kaabu. The council of Jambuurs (nobles who are not necessarily members of the royal family) made up of Serers will continue to check this.[13] Maysa Wali Jaxateh Manneh (many variations in seplling: "Maissa Wali"; "Maissa Wally") - (reigned 1350)[14] who took the name of "Maysa Wali Jon" (many variations in spelling - "Maysa Wali Dione") towards the end of his long reign was the first Guelowar king of Sine post Turubang 1335. It was him who appointed Njaajaan Njie (a Serer) to rule Jolof and head the Jolof Empire where he (Njanajaan Njie) resided after he left Waalo.[15] That was at least ten years after the reign of Maysa Wali. [16] Maysa Wali himself did not have a Serer father, he was one of those Guelowar princes who survived the Battle of Turubang. His father Silmang Koli and his mother Jomogue died at Turubang in Kaabu. His sisters and nieces that escaped the massacre married into the old Serer royal families e.g. Faye, Joof (or Diouf, Njie (or Ndiaye), etc. These noble paternal clans were in the main, the old royal families - descendants of the ancient Serer kings and land owners (Laman).[17] The Serer paternal families provided the royal paternal bloodline and the Mandinka Guelowars provided the maternal blood by marrying into these families just as the Nyancho and Guelowar maternal clans of Kaabu married into the paternal noble families of Kaabu: "Sanneh" and "Manneh" (also spelt: Sane and Mane) before Turubang.[18] The Mandinkas of Kaabu did not conquer Sine. They were granted asylum by the Serer nobility. Maysa Wali himself did not reign until fifteen years after Turubang. He was nominated and elected by his hosts, the Serer nobility and accepted by the people due to his character several years after Turubang when he assisted the Serer Great Council of Lamans pass a legal judgement as one of the advisors to the Great Council of Lamans. He became assimilated into Serer society and gained the confidence of the Great Council.[19] His nieces and sisters he gave the Serer nobility in marriage. That sealed the union between Serer-Guelowar. [20] Virtually all the Kings of Sine and Saloum were Serer bearing Serer surnames not Mandinka. [21] Maysa Wali's descendants did not rule in Sine neither did they rule in Saloum.[22] Serer culture, language, religion and traditions prevailed in Sine and Saloum not Mandinka.[23]--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Accounts of Serer people[edit]

Some of his accounts are as follows:

  • Along the Grande Côteat at an anchor point, Alvise called it the "Palma di Budomel.[24][25][26]

"Budomel" actually means the "Damel" of Cayor (the King of Cayor) who ruled over the Wolof inhabitants of Cayor.[27]

  • Alvise stated that this "point" has previously been used by the Portuguese traders and dated that trade between the Portuguese and Wolof was established in 1450 – "that was five years before I went on this voyage" Alvise noted.[28] The chronicles of Henrican discoveries by Gomes Eanes de Zurara ended in 1448 and conflict between the Wolof people and the Portuguese were noted. Although it is unknown how peace and trade resumed between the Wolof and Portuguese, in Peter E. Russell's book (Prince Henry 'the Navigator': a life. New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press, 2000. Page 297) he cited a document (f-1489) which demonstrates that Lourenço Dias opened trade again between the Wolof and the Portuguese. Lourenço was of course the same person who participated in the slave raiding of Lançarote de Freitas between 1445 and 1446 and returned between 1448 and 1450.

Alvise wanted to trade horses for slaves which was the main income generator for Wolofs at that "point" and Alvise is reported to have sold seven horses and woolen products for 100 Wolof slaves.[29][30]

  • At his time in Wolof Cayor, Alvise got to meet the king of Cayor and stayed with the king’s nephew named "Bisboror" for atleast a month.
  • Accompanied by Usodimare, they decided to sail further south and finally reached the Sine-Saloum delta, which is inhabited by the Serer people whom he called "Sereri" (a term his Wolof interpreter might have used – which means "Serer of …"). In his chronicle, Alvise has nothing good to say about the Serer people. He referred to the Serers on the border as "idolaters of great cruelty." Alvise has never set foot in Serer Country and his opinions about the Serers is mostly coming from his Wolof interpreters.[31] According to Alvise, he was the one who named the Saloum River as "Rio di Barbacini" as it would be become known in European maps. Although Alvise, his Portuguese entourage and slaves they have been carrying from Cayor tried to rest there before moving on, they decided against it when one of his Wolof interpreters got off the ship and tried to make contact with the local Serers and was killed on the spot for daring to bring foreigners into their land. In his chronicle, Alvise described how the Serers people seeing their ship gathered at the beach looking menacing and unwelcoming. As a result, the Portuguese occupants of the ship were ordered not to get off the ship. Instead, they moved the ship further back and ordered no one to come off the ship apart from their Wolof interpreter whom they sent to make contact with the Serer natives to negotiate on their behalf. Their Wolof interpreter was killed by the Serers for his heresy. The occupants of the ship inlcuding Alvise himself still didn't dare to come out but headed south to The Gambia.

These Serers are the Serer-Ndut (one of the members of the Serer Group) who resided at that area and refused to submit to the Kings of Cayor. They are renowned warriors who for centuries refused to bow to the Kings of Cayor and have defeated the Kings of Cayor with their armies as Alvise will testify to in his chronicle. [32] Highly feared among the Wolofs of Cayor including the Cayor army itself, they possess a reputation for using poisoned spears and arrows as well as terrorising the Wolofs and Moors of Cayor. Subsequent historians will testify to that fact hence why the Serer-Ndut were never subjugated by the Kings of Cayor but left alone. They are the only group in Cayor who enjoyed their independence and did what they wanted to do without approval from the King.[33] According to Alvise, these Serers differentiated themselves from the Wolof people due to their hatred of slavery and slave trading. Slavery is also forbidden in the Serer religion. [34] As such, when Alvise’s interpreter came off the ship to talk to them, they (the Serer-Ndut) knew exactly what the Wolof and his accompanies wanted and he was killed on the spot.[35]

The word "Barbacini" used by Alvise, came from his Wolof interpreter. If he had spoken to the Serers, they would not have used such a term. Although Alvise misspelt and mispronounced the word, the word comes from the Wolof phrase "Bur ba Sine" which means "The King of Sine" who took residence at the Serer Kingdom of Sine. Due to the fact that the Serer-Ndut who resided at the Wolof border refused to submit to the King of Cayor, some groups have used Alvise's commentary literally in reference to the Serer-Ndut of Cayor, by saying the Serer people as a whole didn’t have kings which is further from the truth. [36] The Serer-Ndut of Cayor refused to bow to the Kings of Cayor, but the Serer people as a whole have Kingdoms and certainly Kings two of which were the Kingdom of Sine and the Kingdom of Saloum and for centuries the Kingdom of Baol. [37] By Alvise distinguishing between the "Sereri" and the "Barbacini", this seems to indicate that he is referring to two different people when in fact, the Kingdom of Sine was a Serer Kingdom where the King of Sine ("Barbacini") took residence. But since he has never set foot in Serer Country, not only was he confused as to what his Wolof interpreters were telling him, but he based his opinions about the Serers mainly from his Wolof interpreters, for whom the Serer Ndut of Cayor brings fear. [38] Although Alvise's chronology provides some insight about Senegambian society in the 15th century, his chronology is full of errors and should therefore be taken with caution. As noted by Kerr when commenting on Alvise's entry regarding sand banks in Senegal, "which extend about half a mile into the sea", Kerr noted that: "It is necessary to be cautious with respect to these early voyages, which, having gone through various transcriptions and translations, are liable to numerous errors. In our best charts, this sank bank, intermixed with sunk rocks, extends two miles out to sea…".[39] Another error made by Alvise is the year Cape Verde was discovered by the Portuguese. According to Alvise, "Cape Verd was so named by the Portuguese, who discovered it about a year before" (i.e. the year before his journey). This is totally wrong. In fact, it was discovered in 1446 by Denis Fernandez which was nine years prior to Alvise's entry.[40][41]

According to these early European sources, the Portuguese were not in contact with the Serers but with the Wolofs. In the 18 to 19th centuries, among the Wolof population of the coastal areas of Senegal such as Gorée and St-Louis, Burke and Else reported that:

"While Omar Tall had been active inland, the Europeans had been busy on the coast. Throughout the 18th century, the French settlements on Gorée and St-Louis grew considerably. As the Portuguese had done before them, French settlers intermarried with the local Wolof, and by the 1790s the majority of the town's populations were of mixed race." [42]

According to Mcay:

"The intermarriage of French traders and Wolof women in Senegambia created a metis or mulatto, class. In the emerging urban centres at Saint-Louis, this small class adopted the French language, the Roman Catholic faith, and a French manner of life."[43]

According to the 18th century Scottish explore Mungo Park:

"The noses of the Jaloffs (Wolofs) are not so much depressed, nor the lips so protuberant, as among the generality of Africans; and although their skin is of the deepest black, they are considered by the white traders, as the most slightly Negroes in this part of the Continent." [44]

According to early Portuguese sources, "

"The Serer of Siin had a very belligerent reputation for attacking and mistreating Europeans, despite the fact that their ruler was a good customer of the Portuguese and tried to protect traders. The Portuguese were aware of the importance of appeasing the local powers. Even if not attacking the Portuguese directly, a hostile ruler could forbid his subjects from selling food to the Europeans."

These European sources appears to indicate that, the Portuguese and French were romantically linked with the Wolof populations and other groups and not with the Serers. They also appear to indicate Wolofs' long participation in the Atlantic Slave Trade and the selling of other Wolof people to the European slave traders.[45] Although slavery is forbidden in Serer religion and culture,[46] some Serer kings and nobles did sold prisoners of war in revenge, but not in huge numbers compared to other groups. According to François G. Richard:

"The Kingdom of Sine remained a modest participant in the Atlantic system, secondary to the larger Wolof, Halpulaar (speakers of the Pulaar language i.e. the Fula people and Toucouleur people) or Mandinka polities surrounding it on all sides... As practices of enslavement intensified among other ethnic groups (i.e. Wolof people, Fula people, Toucouleur people and Mandinka people) during the 18th century, fuelling a lucrative commerce in captives and the rise of internal slavery, the Siin (Sine) may have been demoted to the rank of second player, in so far as the kingdom was never a major supplier of captives."


According to Klein (1968) and Mbogj (1978):

"In times of peace, the Kingdom of Siin (Sine) more readily supplied grain, cattle and other basic necessities to the French."


On 18 July 1867, Muslim jihadist called Maba Diakhou Bâ who was the leader of the Marabout movement tried to launch jihad in the Serer Kingdom of Sine. The Serer army led by the King of Sine Maat Sine Kumba Ndoffene Famak Joof defeated and killed Maba Diakhou Bâ at The Battle of Fandane-Thiouthioune commonly as The Battle of Somb.[49][50] Maba Diakhou Bâ was also a slave trader who raided Mandinka villages in The Gambia for slaves as well as killing pagans.[51] Maba is treated as hero and saint by some Senegambian Muslim communities for propagating Islam in the region during the 19th century.[52]

Saer Mati Bâ (son of Maba) was also a 19th century jihadist who was backed by the royal family of Jolof (his maternal relatives) along with the British in The Gambia but was defeated at the Battle of Kombof 1st April 1887 (also spelt "Goumbof") by the King of Saloum Gedal Mbooj aided by his cousin the future King of Saloum - Maat Saloum Semou Jimit Joof and some French forces.[53] After his defeat, he abandoned most of his men in battle and fled for refuge to Albreda in The Gambia under British protection and finished his days in exile in Bakau (a Gambian town) where he died in 1897.[54][55]

  • You have tolerated! Don't rise above your status. I have warned you before regarding the way you address other editors. Try to edit articles for the benefit of Wiki and keep your attitude to yourself. It was I who told you to put parts of the article you have issue with on this talk page so that it can be edited. That was after you kept making poor edits, failure to follow protocol by deleting sources, deleting parts of the article and living incomplete sentences etc. I told you that at least twice, here [10] and here [11]. You finally followed my advise and now pretending as if it was your idea after all. Please!

For the attention of other editors, I have edited the above two sections and inserted them back to the article. Tamsier (talk) 11:56, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Request for comments in progress[edit]

There will be a request for comments about the quality and direction of this essay section. I think it will benifit from alternative voices. Excessive non-notable content is a problem. Every little obscure detail and personal opinion needs to be removed and no time should be spent fixing a mess.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Serer people[edit]

This article has been created by a known advocate who has been warned about (but fails to get it). The sections in debate areexcessive non-notable.WP:TLDR It is practically a essay with opinions and almost personal notes. Every little obscure detail and personal opinion occupies 1000 of text. Make huge unreadable blocks of red links and brackets and bad grammar. Tried to work with the editor and point out how to fix it but I get conspiracy theories and accusations. The way i saw it assist them to fix what they put. Why should any editor fix bad essay content, just remove it until it is properly written. There is no shortage of Ethnic articles yet even notable groups do not run on like this. But other opinions would be nice. Here is a sample of the tone In similarity, how could the Serers have set up a Tondyon dynasty in the 14th century when they have already left three hundred years earlier?(and guess what it has reference hence it is valid per the editor who wrote it)--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 21:21, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

  • There may be problems with the article, however I think you are overstating the situation, I don't see walls of text, I don't see masses of redlinks. The article has been around for several years, I see also there have been difficulties over a number of edits, which are partially valid in neutralising language for example, but also remove sourced informaiton. Rich Farmbrough, 18:46, 21 October 2011 (UTC).
  • I agree with Farmbrough's comments. Reading through the article I note structural and copyediting issues. However, I do not see evidence of bias nor does it read like a opinion piece. The content is sourced. The article can definitely be improved but I don't think that Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ's criticisms have any substance to them. FiachraByrne (talk) 16:42, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree with Farmbrough above. The article looks fine. FurrySings (talk) 13:17, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
  • There do seem to, perhaps, be difficulties with the article, and it may well be that there are significant problems with the article, I don't know. But I don't see any particularly actionable request in the comment that starts this RfC, and on that basis don't myself see anything requested here which necessarily required an RfC. Could the article be improved? Yes, virtually any article could be improved. But if this is, as it seems to perhaps be, a discussion of the conduct of an editor, I would think WP:RFC/U might be the more appropriate venue. John Carter (talk) 00:46, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Greetings. I am one of the main editors of this article and it is apparent that the editor who started this Rfc is referring to me. I am quite baffled that they commented on my poor grammar. Considering the fact English is not even my 5th language and I have never professed to be a master of the Queen's English, it did not stop me correcting this disruptive editor's poor grammar. Here are examples:
1. [12]
2. [13]
3. why is it not mentioned who "died" him?

Believe it or not this editor added the "User: en category" (editors who can read and write in English) to their User page, but shows no prove of it. That aside, this editor has been rather disruptive for several weeks and have deliberate deleted sourced content and left incomplete sentences. They have also deleted an entire bibliographic section as well as inline citation sources as commented on by User:Rich Farmbrough. Here are examples of their disruptive edits:

placing tags without backing them up on the talk page
Deletion of sources to which there are many as evident above. This is just a snippet and here [14]. I've tried my best to work with this editor but apart from the disruptive nature of this editor, they also lack tact and civility when addressing other editors. Just take a look at the above and other Serer related articles such as Serer religion etc and one will see for themselves how they talk to people. We are all here to do our bit and improve Wiki articles. Rudeness towards another editor is on call for. The editor should follow their usual advise by editing the article not the editor. This article can be improved. No one is doubting that, but this editor is overstating the situation as noted by Rich and others. In good faith, I have also re-edited parts of the article.

Tamsier (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

the Fang: another people "proved" to be from Egypt[edit]

This is just a slide show,[15] but it deals with another "out-of-Egypt" claim, the Fang. The refs at the end may be interesting, esp. about Diop picking up on colonialist mythology about superior races (that it was the French etc. in the 19th century who suggested that any Africans who did not fit their stereotype of primitive savage must be from Egypt. No wonder some Serer nationalists find this kind of thing offensive!) — kwami (talk) 16:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Everyone is from KMT these days. I have no doubt people must have moved out of KMT and into other Southern parts of Africa, it is only natural (and very common more than not) for people to do so. The issue is evidence is still needed.

List of notable people - Wikipedia is NOT a shopping list[edit]

per this policy i have removed the messy fan styled Notable people. It is not policy. and should be inline with the article if they are notable.Also as with other articles such as Oromo people, it must be in the sources that these people are exclusively or majority from this ethnic group. Now considering this is 2011 and so much mixing goes on it is a very un-encyclopedic and really subjective. some of these people are 1/4 Serer, some may or may not be the sources are vague or absent, has to go. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 05:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

NPOV not resolved, do not move any tags[edit]

Do you think a request for comments means tags can be deleted? dont get too much confidence and take out tags. anytime an article is written like this:

  • "Like the early European sources, the 18th to 19th century sources also appears to indicate that, the Portuguese and French were romantically linked with the Wolof populations and other groups and not with the Serers. They also appear to indicate Wolofs' long participation in the Atlantic Slave Trade and the selling of other Wolof people to the European slave traders" (this section favors only one people, the entire section is pro-Serer at the expense of history)
  • The Serer people have a very rich and ancient culture that predominates modern day Senegambia which is imitated and enjoyed by all Senegambian ethnic groups.

Will anyone tell me this is not violating NPOV. You can get 200 people to say it is okay, but policy is greater than vote. That is just some examples. Call me names but the evidence is my vindicator --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 05:58, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

You asked for comment. Mine is that everyone should take a deep breath.[edit]

I am finding the argument almost incomprehensible and I know more about Africa than most North Americans. Granted, that's a *really* low bar, and I by no means claim to be an expert. Clearly though, emotions are running very high, and religion does seem to be involved. This may in fact be a case for mediation. However, perhaps the following thoughts will help you avoid this, or at least make the issues easier for outsiders to understand.

I don't think the article is "fine." I am interested in the topic and could not read it. Yes, there are language problems but that's the least of it. It is definitely too detailed. For example:

"It is necessary to be cautious with respect to these early voyages, which, having gone through various transcriptions and translations, are liable to numerous errors. In our best charts, this sank bank, intermixed with sunk rocks, extends two miles out to sea…".[146]
what is the importance of this sand bank?
Another error made by Alvise is the year Cape Verde was discovered by the Portuguese. According to Alvise, "Cape Verd was so named by the Portuguese, who discovered it about a year before" (i.e. the year before his journey). This is factually inaccurate. In fact, it was discovered in 1446 by Denis Fernandez which was nine years prior to Alvise's entry.[147][148]
what is the importance of this error, if error it is? What does this paragraph have to do with the preceding one?

Just a thought, you could make a subpage for early history, another for medieval history. This would not at all be an abridgement of anyone's rights; very large topics like biology are handled this way, and the material and energy do not seem to be lacking ;) Is there a version of this page on some other wikipedia? The French one for instance? I am just wondering if it has had similar issues and if so how (or if) they were resolved.

Remember that most of your readers won't know anything about any of this. Your sentences and your paragraphs should be short. This will improve readability a great deal. If there are reasons why Alvise or Diop need to be debunked -- and I gather that somebody thinks so, though I don't have time to sift through this for the reasons -- then document them on the separate page devoted to them personally. Make one if you need to.

Hope that helps. (talk) 06:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

guess I am not signed in, sorry. -- elinruby
  • Thanks elinbury for your feedback. I'll take your advise.

Thanks. Tamsier (talk) 12:25, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Edit war over image[edit]

If you have a problem use the talk page. You have been warned about editing editors and not the article.assume good faith- Luckily for me i have been editing African articles for a very very long time, so the conspiracy theories will not work as to why i edit here.So Here [16] i am constructive but here [17] i am destructive? correct? Do not destroy this article with you stupid games. Since when have you cared about Serer articles or Serer images? I have tolerated you long enough. Unexplained reversion are against edit policy. It is not clear what your issue is. If it continues you will be reported for civility as well as edit warring. It is your choice, but it might be very hard to explain why you are reverting my developments.Avoid incivility. --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 09:00, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

  • You are improving NOTHING. You are trying to play silly games as you have been doing for the past few months in ALL the Serer related articles e.g Serer people, Serer religion, Maat Sine Kumba Ndoffene Famak Joof, Serer medieval history to present, Ama Gôdô Maat, etc etc etc. Even in the Gambia and Senegal articles where Serer peoople are mentioned. I always assume good faith to other editors but your constant edit wars against me over the past few months relating to Serer articles demonstrated to me that, it would be rather foolish of me to assume good faith in your part when your actions spoke volumes. The lady whose picture you have taken from Wiki French (who do not even bother sourcing articles) may still be alive and may not even be aware that her picture was used in this way. This is the reason why I didn't use it but chose older images. I have passed assuming good faith as far as you are concerned. You have also revealed yourself that your lack credibility and integrity after the way you handled yourself in the Almoravid discussion [18], [19],[20], [21]. Although initially you were a bit of a pain, albeit the constant edit wars you were making against me in Serer related articles, and you getting your friend to block me, even after all that, I still had a bit of respect for you as an editor. Any tiny respect I had for you you had destroyed in the Almoravid discussion. You have no integrity and no sense of character. You follow what others say; you have no opinion of your own and are easily led; you edit in revenge; you alway express the opinions of others without sources; commanded to do the work of others and last but not least, you go against your own principles which is the worst as far as I am concerned. I will assume no good faith. You! Your actions over the past few month have demonstrated to me that you do not edit in good faith, so do not expect any from me. Whilst I and several others come here to share knowledge and edit articles, you come here hoping to be made an Administrator. You have added NOTHING to African related articles never mind Serer related articles other than tags and deletions. In most case, you even use the wrong tag and needed somebody else to show you the right tag in spite of the number of years you've been tagging African articles. [22], [23], [24]. Heaven knows why you've added African categories on your user page other than as badges of honour. In instances when I come upon an unsourced African article, the first thing I do is try to source with reliable sources even if I've never edited it. You on the other hand place tags or delete things. Very easy to place tags but difficult to provide sources because you will have to do some reading. You see the difference between you and I? My aim here is to improve African articles. Your aim here is to destroy hoping to be promoted to Administrator. You will NEVER be an Administrator, no matter how hard you die trying. You even know this yourself hence the remark on your user page. Our motivations for joining Wiki couldn't be more different. You are dying to be an Administrator and I am not interested in it even if someone handed it to me on a platter. I just come here to edit and go. No badges, no position, nothing. I am not interested in that. Show me one article where you were the original editor. I will die waiting. Where were you from again? From the HOA region. Well let me tell you something.

Several people have tried to improve this article over the years. You only came here "yesterday" and want to destroy everybody's work! I have tolerated your nonsense, childishness and stalking for long enough. Yes stalking! You think I didn't realise long ago? You bet I did. I just chose to ignore it and kept quite about it. This is a WARNING. I have nothing to loose. If you want to play with articles, go and play with Ethiopia related articles and get your filthy little hands from Serer related articles, better from African related articles. Tamsier (talk) 12:14, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

General clean Up Notes (Wolof -Serer POV)[edit]

I have gone through this article after reading the more developed one here Sereres It is interesting that the tone over there is more in keeping with most wikipedia ethnic articles. I wonder why? I think more editors of the Franchophone region edit there and hence it is harder to push a POV. Like the one which seems to claim aspects of Wolof history without any balance. [25]. One thing is in common with this POV all over wikipedia, that's right the editor who has been blocked. I think that is me for this article, As they say the proof is in the work. Everyone is free to do a [A] and [B] and give feedback.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 06:42, 19 November 2011 (UTC)


Some sources to work with - we have to show the various viewpoints.

[26] "A contrasting problem surrounds the identification of the Serer ethnic group; the label "Serer" has long been applied to several different groups, some of which speak unrelated languages. The "true" Serer, who make up over 90 percent of the population identified by that name, are comprised of the speakers of Serer-Siin and the closely related Serer-Niominka, fisher- men who inhabit the coastal islands north of the Gambia river and who are consequently known as the seereer-u-ndox, or "water Serer" in Wolof. The most significant of the distinct small groups also called Serer are the Non, Ndut, and Safene peoples who inhabit a series of villages around the region of Thies." page 51

"Serer identity in Fatick is linked to the history of the pre-colonial kingdom of Sine. One of three Serer kingdoms to emerge between the fourteenth and the sixteenth centuries. Sine survived as an independent state in various permutations until the colonial conquest." p.52

Islamic Society and State Power in Senegal: Disciples and Citizens in Fatick By Leonardo A. Villalón Dougweller (talk) 17:06, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

page 21

The term "Serer" encompasses several groups associated with the states of Sin and Salum, situated between the former Wolof states in the north and the Mandinka Kabu states in the south. Although some Serer may have originated in their present region, others probably migrated from Takrur in the north beginning in the eleventh century, being pushed south by Moors, Fulbe. and Jolof. By the fourteenth century the powerful state of Sin was established, led by a line of rulers of Mandinka origin known as Gelwar. The Salum kingdom was established in the late fifteenth or early sixteenth century by Mbcgan Ndur (Ndour). 9. For further information on the Wolof. sec Ames (1955-disc). Brooks (1993:167-257). A. Diop (1981). Gamble (1967). and Uvl/.ion (1985:145): on the Sorer, sec Gamble (1967) and Gravrand (1983. 1990): on the Job. see Irvine and Sapir (1976). Mark (1985. 1992), and Sapir (1965-disc); on the Scncgambia, see Barry (1998). Clark and Phillips (1994), and Sonko-Godwin (1986); on the Baga. sec I .amp (1996).

Mande Music: Traditional and Modern Music of the Maninka and Mandinka of Western AfricaBy Eric Charry Dougweller (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:16, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Original inhabitants[edit]

As Kwami says above, there are sources that talk about the predecessors of the Serer. Saying that they were the original inhabitants of the Senegal Gambia area would be like saying that the Celts were the original inhabitants of Britain (except that when we speak of prehistoric Celts we are not making assumptions about culture but are talking about a group speaking related languages known as Celtic). I note that one of the sources used for the Serer is Charles Becket. Our article on the Senegambian stone circles says at the moment "Sources suggests that, these megaliths were built by the ancestors of the Serer people and form part of Serer ancient and medieval history.<ref>[[Henry Gravrand|Gravrand, Henry]], "La Civilisation Sereer - ''[[Pangool]]''", Les Nouvelles Editions [[Africa]]ines du [[Senegal]], 1990, p 77, ISBN 2-7236-1055-1</ref><ref>Gambian Studies No. 17., "People of The Gambia. I. The Wolof with notes on the Serer and the Lebou", By David P. Gamble & Linda K. Salmon with Alhaji Hassan Njie, [[San Francisco]] (1985)</ref><ref name="Serer-Jola">Espie, Ian, "A thousand years of West African history: a handbook for teachers and students", Editors : J. F. Ade Ajayi, Ian Espie, Humanities Press (1972), p 134,ISBN 0391002171</ref><ref>{{fr}} Becker, Charles: "Vestiges historiques, trémoins matériels du passé clans les pays sereer". Dakar. 1993. CNRS - ORS TO M [] (Excerpt) (Retrieved : 28 June 2012)</ref>".

Which also means that these are not part of Serer pre-history, since when they were built the Serer didn't exist - despite several articles now which state as fact that they did. Dougweller (talk) 05:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)


Looking for information on Gravrand (because I find his time depths claims WP:REDFLAG, I found [27]. Note the comments on historical bias. And " A lack of scientific rigor in data processing leaves a bitter impression tote [de fourre-tout.]." and "des hypothèses audacieuses, inscrivant beaucoup de fausses évidences dans un questionnement critique ". Dougweller (talk) 11:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

(A lack of scientific rigor in the treatment of the data leaves the sour impression of a free-for-all.)
Good ref. Added it to the Gravrand article. — kwami (talk) 13:04, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Becker and "ancient history"[edit]

Beckerpdf is misrepresented here. He wrote:

"I. les vestiges de populations anterieures.

Il s’agit des traces laissées par les proto-peuplements avec lesquels les Sereer ont été en contact lorsqu’ils sont venus du Fuuta. Selon les divers pays sereer, ces restes sont différents :

- les mégalithes de latérite taillée, plantés en structures circulaires, avec des pierres frontales implantées en direction de l’est, ne se rencontrent que dans une petite partie de l’ancien royaume du Saalum. "

Google translates this as

"I. vestiges of anterior populations.

These are the traces of the proto-populations with which Sereer were when they came in contact Fuuta. According to different countries Sereer, these remains are different:

- Megaliths carved laterite planted in circular structures with stone front located towards the east, are found only in a small part of the ancient kingdom of Saalum."

Bing translates it as:

"I. the vestiges of past populations.

It's the traces left by the proto-peuplements with which the Sereer were in contact when they came from the Fuuta. According to countries sereer, these remains are different:

-chipped laterite megaliths, planted in circular structures with frontal stones implanted in the direction of the East, occur only in a small part of the former Kingdom of the Saalum."

I've removed it. Dougweller (talk) 14:31, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

  • What a mess, Doug. Drmies (talk) 03:19, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Religious Majority Note[edit]

I think it is important, for the record, to put a note to this discussion. Talk:Serer_religion#Numbers — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inayity (talkcontribs) 03:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

As slaves in the new world[edit]

This may need a section of its own. Eg A History of African Societies to 1870 by Elizabeth Isichei[28]: "The Niger Delta produced relatively small numbers of slaves from the late fifteenth century on, as did Upper Guinea and the Senegambia, which was more prominent in the first phase of the Adantic slave trade than it was ever to be again - 20 per cent of all slaves exported to the New World in the 1520s may have been Wolof, 8 per cent Serer and 8 per cent Malinke.6' By the eighteenth century, the Senegambia was a minor supplier, and most of those sold there were Bambara from far inland." Dougweller (talk) 11:52, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I have not read it all but see Slavery and Ethnic groups in the Americas--Inayity (talk) 15:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

User:Doug Weller and his POV pushing on Serer and African related article.[edit]

I will not give them the satisfaction responding to the above silly comments and personal attacks directed at me by bias and agenda driven editors especially in relation to articles concerning Sub-Saharan Africa and her people. Their attempts to discredit me and my edits is nothing more than agenda driven. If they have they their wish, every single article that addresses civilisations in Sub-Saharan Africa will be deleted, because that goes against their Eurocentric views and POV pushing agenda. My contribution to Wiki on African related articles (not just Serer articles) over the years speaks for themselves, whether you like them or loath them. The views of these Eurocentric POV pushers do not interest me. My life does not revolve around Wikipedia. Moving forward, I opened this section about this User:Doug Weller who has a long history of advancing his agenda driven POV on Serer and African related articles. All you have to do is look at the talk pages of Serer articles and you will see what I mean. This editor, copied and pasted unreliable sources on several Serer articles to advance his POV (see below).

According to the historian David Galvan, "The oral historical record, written accounts by early Arab and European explorers, and physical anthropological evidence suggest that the various Serer peoples migrated south from the Fuuta Tooro region (Senegal River valley) beginning around the eleventh century, when Islam first came across the Sahara."[56]:p.51 Over generations these people, possibly Pulaar speaking herders originally, migrated through Wolof areas and entered the Siin and Saluum river valleys. This lengthy period of Wolof-Serer contact has left us unsure of the origins of shared "terminology, institutions, political structures, and practices."[56]:p.52
Professor Étienne Van de Walle gave a slightly later date, writing that "The formation of the Sereer ethnicity goes back to the thirteenth century, when a group came from the Senegal River valley in the north fleeing Islam, and near Niakhar met another group of Mandinka origin, called the Gelwar, who were coming from the southeast (Gravrand 1983). The actual Sereer ethnic group is a mixture of the two groups, and this may explain their complex bilinear kinship system".}[57]

Eventhough they are quotations, I tagged them as dubious and opinionated [29]. This editor then took the matter to RSN (here is my last response, you can read it for yourself -see: "Are dubious and opinion tags appropriate for these quotes by reliable sources?"). Before I even commented, he reverted my edits [30]. For posterity, I will copy and paste my response to this guy here i.e. why I tagged these articles. He is free to copy and paste or respond here, but below are my response to the issues he raised at W:RSN :

Response 1

It is good etiquette to notify the person under discussion. The person who opened this discussion and I have had several disagreements over the years regarding African and Serer related articles in particular. Following my return to Wiki, I saw the numerous nasty comments he has left on some of the Serer talk pages directing them at me, backed by his Wiki friends some whom have hounded me from this project. I ignored those comments and did not dignify them with a response. I will not comment or pass judgment on another editor's remark about his racial bias, but from my experience dealing with him over the years, I find his edits to be racial motivated when it concerns articles relating to Africa especially Sub-Saharan Africa. Whether that is conscious or unconscious I don't know. I will state it here and will have no problem stating it elsewhere. My life does not revolve around Wikipedia. Because of the hatred he has for me, he has been targetting Serer related articles, which I have been active on, and providing selective sources which not only goes against general consensus, but substantiated no where else by reliable sources. He is merely doing that to advance his own POV, but most importantly to infuriate me. Little does he know that he is not actually infuriating me, he is destroying the Wikipedia project. Forget about the Kingdom of Sine for a minute (which I will come back to and will address wholesale with Serer history and Serer people, because he copied and pasted the same material in all three articles, see Serer history#Resistance to Islam, 11th century and Serer people#Ethnonym), a good example of his POV pushing is the Kingdom of Saloum article. Every reliable source would state that the Kingdom of Saloum was a Serer Kingdom along with the Kingdom of Sine from the medieval period. All one has to do is search for Kingdom of Saloum on Googlebooks and all reliable source would attest that it was a Serer Kingdom. This editor in his wisdom, skipped all those sources and went and select an obscure source (Saine, Abdoulaye (2012). Culture and Customs of Gambia. Greenwood Press. p. 13. ISBN 978-0-313-35910-1) who state that it was a "Serer or Wolof kingdom". There is no argument there are/were Wolof people in Saloum, but as noted by Diange (Diange, Pathé. "Les Royaumes Sérères", Présence Africaines, no. 54. (1965), p. 142-172) and Klein (Klein, Martin A., "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal Sine-Saloum, 1847–1914", Edinburgh University Press (1968), p.7) the Wolof were immigrants to Saloum. Even the Wolof do not consider Saloum as one of their kingdoms. Forget about Serer readers for a minute, but any Wolof reading that would probably laugh and loose all confidence in the reliability of Wikipedia especially if they are doing some academic research. Yes, I saw that edit too [31] but I ignored it. He is not scoring points with me, but destroying the project. I will now move to Serer history especially the section under King Njaajan Njie. This editor selected specific sources that talk about the nobility of this King not within a Sub-Saharan African context, but within an Arab context, by saying that this medieval Senegambian King's father was an Almoravid. Note that, anyone who knows the history which this editor doesn't, would know that the Almoravid being referred to is no other than Abu Bakr ibn Umar, as stated in his own article. Every reliable source agrees pretty much that Njaajaan ruled Jolof in the 14th century, which was 300 years after the death of Abu Bakr ibn Umar. This editor was selective quoting trying to advance his own POV and agenda. The earliest written narrative/epic about Njaajaan was recorded by the French governor of Goree in Senegal (in the 1700s) - Alexandre Le Brasseur and reproduced by Jean Boulègue in his book "Le grand Jolof p. 25-6". Apart from the oral tradition, every written record about Ndiadiane (specifically) originated from Alexandre's work because it is the earliest written source specifically about Ndiadiane and the Jolof Empire. I saw the nasty comments and false accusations he left on the Almoravid talk page where he claimed that the original performance I was referring to was Samba's work. See the talkpage of Almoravid dynasty under "See above: "In Ndiadiane Ndiaye's epic, scholars observed that:". That debate between some editors and I all those years ago were put to rest. There was no reason to hound me there as he has done on several articles trying to discredit me. Oh for your, information, I was not referring to Samba, it was Alexandre's work I was referring to when I wrote "original performances." Anyone who knows the subject would have known what I meant. I would rather you ask me than run around making false accusations against me on talk pages. I know the history of my people and the Senegambia region better than an obscure American Wikipedia editor. Please do not try to change our history. Thank you very much. And this is not about W:OWN. This is about present material in a neutral manner, using reliable and verifiable sources with respect to weight, as stated in Wikipedia policy. Although "fact" may not be one of the principles of Wikipedia, every good editor try to present the facts in the spirit of Wikipedia policy, because without fact, there is no need for an encyclopedia. I would rather all these Serer and African related articles be brought down than spreading false information by an editor known his his racially motivated edits and with a long vendetta against me. Wikipedia articles are highly ranked in Google. Some readers read these articles and believe in what has been written without doing their own work. If POV pushers like this editor are editing articles based on their own biases, it is dangerous to the project. By the way the OP has reverted my edit [32]. If you have an issue with Serer or African related articles being made available on Wikipedia, delete them. It is as simple as that. It is much better to delete them or reduce them to a stubb than putting out there factually dubious claims. I will still sleep at night whether they are on Wikipedia or not. Generally speaking, it is much better to delete articles or reduce them to a stub than to present factual bias, or worst, incorrect material driven by someone's own agenda.
Furthermore, Galvan is not qualified to make such a statement. His book is about Serer lamanic custom and land in particular. He has no background on languages African or Serer to make such expansive claims. No reliable source who have studied the subject have ever attested that. The closest we have is that Serer and Pulaar are similar. But to jump from that and say the Serer people who migrated were Pulaar speaking is dubious and Galvan's own opinion which he is neither qualified to make nor is it supported by any reliable source. Galvan should have stuck to Serer land law / inheritance (which is what the book is about) than going outside his remit. Étienne is unreliable, because he has confused the Guelowar dynasty (who arrive in Sine in the 14th century according to all notable and reliable sources) and the Serers of Sine who were already there. To jump from that and say the Serer existed in the 13th century is factually dubious. Note that, he or the editor cite Gravrand but did not state the page number. I have Henry Gravrand's book. Please state the page number and I will look it up. These are the reasons why I tagged them.

He then insisted on the reliability of the sources he cited according to "our criteria" but could not refute my arguments above. Then I responded as follows:

Response 2

And what criteria would that be? A criteria you invented or a Wikipedia criteria? For a source to be deemed reliable, the author must be qualified in the subject. Further, even authors have to cite reliable sources. Neither of these people you have cited are qualified on the subject or cited references to support the claims you have cherry picked to push your own POV. I will state it again since you have missed it the last time: Galvan's book is about Serer customary land law/ lamanic land inheritance, which he wrote by interviewing some Serers and cited them as primary sources. He went against the remit of his book by making expansive claims which he provided no refs for, not to mention not qualified to make such a claim. He is the first person that I've ever seen made such a claim. There are numerous scholars who are qualified on the subject, well verse in Serer history, languages and culture and have worked extensively with these people for decades but have never made such a claim. To take his claim as fact and insert it in the article under the guise of quotation is nothing more but disingenuous. It is dubious and an unqualified opinion no matter how you frame it. As for your comment on Étienne, I will take it that he did not provide a page number when he cited Henry Gravrand? Therefore, I now take issue with using Étienne for two reasons: 1. In his haste, he mixed up the Guelowars with the Serer who were already living in Sine as you well know since you co-edited the Serer history and Guelowar articles, and cited Alioune Sarr ("Histoire du Sine-Saloum (Sénégal)" Introduction, bibliographie et notes par Charles Becker. 1986-87), a paper you knew about thanks to me because I cited him before. All mainstream reliable sources state that the Guelowars arrived in the Sine in the 14th-century. You knew this yourself because you co-edited some of the Serer articles. To go from there and cite an author who clearly hasn't done his homework properly is disingenuous. He clearly hasn't done his homework because if he had, he would not have made such a silly statement that the Serer are a mixture of Mandinka and only came about in the 13th-century. Even Galvan, the person you cited above made reference to the fact that the Serer were resisting Islamization back in the 11th-century. That fact is well known and record in all mainstream sources. If Étienne has done the leg work, he would have known that rather than make his ridiculous claims which is unscholarly. Of course you were not interested in facts or Wiki policy on neutrality and weight. You were only trying to advance your own agenda. I remember you stating somewhere that the Serer are a recent ethnic group around the 14th century when plenty of sources disagree (here are some sources that may interest you: (1. Chavane, Bruno A., "Villages de l'ancien Tekrour: recherches archéologiques dans la moyenne vallée du fleuve Sénégal", KARTHALA Editions (1985), p. 10, 28, ISBN 9782865371433; 2. Asante, Molefi Kete; Mazama, Ama; "Encyclopedia of African Religion", SAGE Publications (2008), ISBN 9781506317861 [33] - I threw in Molefi there because one of your chums on the Serer talk page I believe kept stating there are no Serer references in Molefi's work. Clearly they did do their homework because it is available on Google books). You then went on copying and pasting unreliable sources everywhere: this and this. For someone who once claimed to be very thorough when it comes to reliable sources. Please! I bet you couldn't believe your luck when you stumbled upon Étienne, or dear I say entered certain keywords on Google search to justify your POV. Sorry, he is not reliable and anyone that claims otherwise is not truly interested in creating an encyclopedia, but an encyclopedia full of bias and factually in accurate material. 2. The other issue I take with Étienne is that, he cited Gravrand but did not provide a page number. You have addressed him as "professor" in some of the Serer articles when you inserted his unreliable material. You inserted the title "professor" solely to give him credibility and advance your POV. A professor/scholar cite his sources in full, not just provide a name of the author and year of publication. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. He is not reliable. Neither of them are reliable for the claims you have cherry picked to support your POV. That is the reason why I tagged the article. As for your Martin Luther King claim, don't take me for a full. Not for one minute do I believe you will be made to revert your edits back to my tags even after demolishing your agenda driven unreliable source citations. Therefore, I will be copying and pasting some of what I've stated here to the relevant talk pages.

This editor has a long history of pushing his Eurocentric POV on Sub-Saharan African /Serer related articles. Since he could not rebuke my argument at RSN, I doubt he could do it here. Therefore, I will not be wasting my time responding to any comment he may have unless he can back up the reason he has cherry picked those sources to advance his POV which goes against any mainstream reliable sources. Unless he offers something new, I will not be wasting my time. All I got from that RSN debate was "I am the Administrator. I can do whatever the hell I like and you can't do nothing about it." Take a look at RSN link above and see how he worded his response, to gather support against me. As he has done on numerous occasions including here [34]. My conscious is clear. I sleep at night very well. And I have a life outside Wikipedia. Thank you. Tamsier (talk) 11:01, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Great. I sleep well too. Your arguments at RSN have been refuted, you just don't accept that. You're unhappy that a respected academic didn't give a page number in a reference in a quotation added to an article, but we actually don't require that and to try and guess what page he was referring to would be original research. That you don't believe that I marched with King at Selma is your problem, not mine. If I had a Eurocentric or racist point of view I wouldn't, for instance, have Great Zimbabwe on my watchlist and revert edits by the real racists/Eurocentrics who deny that it was build by Africans. It's a lie to suggest that I want articles on sub-Saharan Africa to be deleted.
Everyone edits from one or more povs, there is nothing wrong with that, it's whether we follow NPOV that matters. My pov is basically that of mainstream science, history and archaeology. I'm not sure that you do. Perhaps you can tell me how old you think Serer religion and the Serer people are? My experience with you is that you are unhappy with showing different povs in the articles you've created - as you are doing by claiming that these two academics aren't reliable sources. And that just as you think I've used unreliable sources (although so far no one agrees with you), some of the sources you've tried to use in the past have been shown to fail WP:RS. As for using 'Professor', if someone doesn't have an an article of their it seems reasonable to show in some way who they are and that they aren't just a random source found through a Google search. And since I'm the one who added the Galvan quote about the Serer resisting Islamisation in the 11th century (which I think you agree with despite not liking Galvan) I'm hardly going to argue that they didn't exist before the 14th century. Having said that, if a source meeting WP:RS makes that statement we should probably also use it, suitably attributed. What we shouldn't have is articles that only present one perspective and ignore the rest. Doug Weller (talk) 11:59, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
You sleep well! I don't know how but good for you. Here is a response I made earlier on my talk page so I will change some of the wording rather than wasting my time.
I made my case succinctly regarding the unreliability of the sources you have cited and for which they were cited. I've said it before and I will say it here. Galvan, may be reliable but only in the context of Serer customary land law and lamanic system (which is what his book was about) because that is his remit i.e his qualification. But he is not qualified to go outside that remit by making expansive claims without first sourcing them from reliable sources. That is the reason why I tagged Galvan's citation. As for Étienne, not only is he not qualified on the subject and went against mainstream sources, but he confused two facts and prescribed his unsubstantiated opinion. First, the Guelowars arrived in Sine in the 14th century, which you well know, but just in case it escaped your memory, see Sarr (as stated in RSN). Second, there were already Serers in Sine, which also knew since you co-edited Serer articles, so for Étienne to come up with that ridiculous notion is unscholarly. Last but not least, Étienne quoted Gravrand for his dubious claims, but only gave the surname of Gravrand and the year of publication of his book (according to your insertions). Even scholars have to quote sources in full when making such claims. I have never seen a scholar quote like Étienne. Never in my life. For that reason I tagged him too. I tagged them for different reasons which are justified. I have stated my point at RSN. Notice that provided nothing in return that rebukes my argument. For someone who once claimed to be very good at selecting sources, I'm surprised you didn't picked that up. As such, I am surprised why RSN didn't ask you to revert your edit or at the very least provided reliable sources that substantiate your claims. I have scoured the internet and the books in my possession trying to find reliable sources that backs up your claim but found absolutely nothing other than the sources you inserted, which means you were cherry picking.
You said and I quote : "And since I'm the one who added the Galvan quote about the Serer resisting Islamisation in the 11th century (which I think you agree with despite not liking Galvan) I'm hardly going to argue that they didn't exist before the 14th century."
On the matter of resisting Islamization in the 11th-century, because that is in the mainstream sources. There is a huge difference in stating something that is in most mainstream sources and saying something totally new which you are not qualified, not to mention no reliable source to back it up. Again, that is the reason why I tagged Galvan. Serer resisting Islamization in the 11th century is in countless reliable sources. As for your last statement : "I'm hardly going to argue that they didn't exist before the 14th century." But you did countless of times. Remember this Really? Wow! Forget about the 13th, if they were resisting Islamization in the 11th century how could they have existed only in the 11th century, formed a religion, culture, language, etc. all that in the 11th century. Wow you are a genius. Who need reliable sources when we have you? and this [35] and this [36]. I am tired waisting my time here. Perhaps someone else in the future can deal with this editor's POV pushing. I am done! Tamsier (talk) 14:59, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
You're getting confused. The Galvan quote says ""The oral historical record, written accounts by early Arab and European explorers, and physical anthropological evidence suggest that the various Serer peoples migrated south from the Fuuta Tooro region (Senegal River valley) beginning around the eleventh century," - which clearly means that they existed before the 11th century. I added that quote. One real problem seems to be the lack of recorded history for this period.
I've found something more recent. François G Richard[37] has a chapter in Ethnic Ambiguity and the African Past: Materiality, History, and the Shaping of Cultural Identities called "The Very Embodiment of the Black Peasant?’ Archaeology, History, and the Making of the Seereerof Siin (Senegal)"[38]. In it he writes that " Oral traditions chart the Seerecr expansion across Senegal and their settlement in the Siin, as they peacefully’ absorbed ‘autochthonous’residents and subsequent waves of Mandinka migrants, resulting in the emergence of a small polity sometime in the mid-14th century (M.-C. Diouf 1996; Gravrand 1981. 1983). In effect, historical sources document the existence of a Seereer kingdom at the time of early Portuguese navigations (Boulegue 1987)." He acknowledges that "Historians of oral traditions have generally accepted the consistency across dliferent myths of origins and linguistic affinities between Siin and Fuuta Tooro to imply that a ‘Seereer' identity had already existed at the time of separation or had crystallized through the process of migration and that recognisably Seereer groups emigrated from northern Senegal around the 11th century and gradually spread south to the Siin and Saalum through different migrations (Becker and Martin 1981)" but continues saying "Yet other signs invite us to pause before postulating the existence of Seereer social consciousness avant la lettre. The most obvious problem is that the current ‘Seereer' denomination and its colonial antecedents do not represent a single ensemble but an amalgamation of seven distinct subgroups whose histories, languages, and social organisations do not always coincide (Galvan 2004: 38, 40)." Copyright limitations mean people will have to read it themselves from the link, but he notes that "At the same time, the facts that considerable cultural differences remain between different Secreer communities and that their political trajectories over the past centuries have taken very different paths demand that we regard scenarios of deep-time Secreer connections critically (sec Richard 2007: 121-24)" and says "A second difficulty stems from the fact that what we call today the Seereer of Siin are not a singular, authentic entity but a historical product shaped bv several centuries of contact between different populations and their political traditions" and refers to " the fact that what we call today the Seereer of Siin are not a singular, authentic entity but a historical product shaped bv several centuries of contact between different populations and their political traditions". I realise this will be unpopular with Tamsier but again, by our criteria if not his, it's a reliable source.
I also note that Tamsier says elsewhere"Saine described the Serer as idol (kharem) worshipers. The word kharem is an Arabic word used by Senegambian Muslims to when speaking about those who follow the Traditional African religions. Serers who follow Serer religion would never ever used such a word because it is found offensive. Mainstream scholars use the word pangool which is linked to their religion and ancestors." I think this is part of the problem - he's appears to be saying that mainstream scholars are Serer, almost by definition. If we only used Serer scholars these articles definitely would violate NPOV. I've asked Tamsier when and where he thinks the Sereer originated but he hasn't answered yet. Doug Weller (talk) 16:58, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • ^ Elizabeth L. Berg and Ruth Wan. Senegal. Cavendish Marshall. 2009.
    • ^ Manirakiza Elvis. L'impact de la croissance et de l'inégalité sur l'évolution de la pauvreté au Sénégal Université de Sherbrooke. 2009. ISBN 0494429909, 9780494429907.
    • ^ Gilles Blanchet. Élites et changements en Afrique et au Sénégal 1983
    • ^ Issa Laye Thiaw. "La Religiosite de Seereer, Avant et pendant leur Islamisation". Ethiopiques no: 54, Revue semestrielle de Culture Négro-Africaine. Nouvelle série, volume 7, 2e Semestre 1991
    • ^ Martin A. Klein. Islam and Imperialism in Senegal Sine-Saloum, 1847-1914, Edinburgh At the University Press (1968)
    • ^ Henri Gravrand. La Civilisation Sereer. Cosaan - Origines
    • ^ Gordon Innes, Bamba Suso, Banna Kanute, Dembo Kanute. "Sunjata: three Mandinka versions", p128. Published by Psychology Press, 1974. ISBN 072860003X
    • ^ J. D. Fage, Roland Anthony Oliver. The Cambridge history of Africa, p282. Published by Cambridge University Press, 1975. ISBN 0521204135
    • ^ "Le Gabou dans les traditions orales du Ngabou". By Gravrand. Éthiopiques 28 special issue No. socialist journal of Black African culture. 1981
    • ^ Alioune Sarr. “Histoire du Sine-Saloum (Sénégal)” Introduction, bibliographie et notes par Charles Becker. 1986-87
    • ^ For the bitter wars between the different royal maternal clans of the Senegambia, see Boubacar Barry, Le Royaume Du Waalo: Le Sénégal Avant La Conquėte. ISBN 2865371417
    • ^ See:
    • Henri Gravrand. Le Gabou dans les traditiones orales due Ngagou
    • Alioune Sarr. Histoire du Sine Saloum
    • Martin A. Klein, Islam and Imperialism in Senegal
    • Denis C. Colven. The State Must be Our Master of Fire
    • ^ "Le Gabou dans les traditions orales du Ngabou". By Gravrand. Éthiopiques 28 special issue No. socialist journal of Black African culture. 1981
    • ^ See Alioune Sarr for Maysa Wali's reign. See also:
    • Éthiopiques, Volume 2, p100-101. Published by Grande imprimerie africaine (1984)
    • ^ See Boubacar Barry, Le Royaume Du Waalo: Le Sénégal Avant La Conquėte.
    • ^ For Maysa Wali's (also Maissa Wali) reign see Alioune Sarr. Njaajaan also mentioned in Sarr. For Njaajaan Njie's reign (also spelt Ndiadiane Ndiaye) See:
    • Bethwell A. Ogot. Africa from the sixteenth to the eighteenth century, p136. Published by James Currey Publishers (1999). ISBN 0852550952
    • ^ For information on Serer Lamanic lineage. See Dennis C. Galvan. For Serer royalty in Sine see:
    • Niokhobaye Diouf. "Chronicle of the Kingdom of Sine". Commented by Victor Martin and Charles Becker. Bulletin IFAN 34 B, 4
    • Alioune Sarr. Histoire du Sine-Saloum. Introduction, bibliographie et Notes par Charles Becker, BIFAN, Tome 46, Serie B, n° 3-4, 1986–1987
    • Martin Klein "Islam and Imperialism in Senegal
    • ^ For the Mane (Manneh) and Sane (Sanneh), see: J. D. Fage, Roland Anthony Oliver, p282.
    • ^ See Biram Ngom . La question Guelwar et la formation du Royaume du Sine. Also see Babacar Sédikh Diouf
    • ^ See Alioune Sarr. Histoire du Sine-Saloum (Sénégal), Introduction, bibliographie et notes par Charles Becker. 1986-87. For more on the nomination of Maysa Wali, See Biram Ngom . La question Guelwar et la formation du Royaume du Sine. Also see Babacar Sédikh Diouf
    • ^ Klein (covering rulers of Sine and Saloum, 1825 to 1969. For all the kings of Sine after Turubang, with their historical account see:
    • Gravrand - Pangool; also La Civilisation Sereer. Cosaan - Origines
    • Niokhobai Diouf as commented by Becker.
    • Sarr

    For the list of Kings of Saloum, see:

    • Gravrand
    • Klein

    For even older Kings of the Kingdom of Baol - an old Serer Kingdom, See:

    • ( Ning and Sain 1972):Lucie Gallistel Colvin. Historical Dictionary of Senegal. Scarecrow Press/ Metuchen. NJ - London (1981) ISBN 081081885x
    • ^ See Biram Ngom La question Guelwar et la formation du Royaume du Sine. Also see Babacar Sédikh Diouf and
    • Gravrand - Cosaan
    • ^ For which culture, language etc prevailed, see Dennis Charles Galvan, The State Must Be Our Master of Fire. See aslo:
    • See Biram Ngom. La question Guelwar et la formation du Royaume du Sine. Also see Babacar Sédikh Diouf
    • Henri Gravrand. La Civilisation Sereer. Cosaan - Origines
    • ^ Robert Kerr. A general history of voyages and travels to the end of the 18th century. Page 225. Published by: J. Ballantyne & Co. 1811
    • ^ (Italian) Giovanni Battista Ramusio. Primo volume delle nauigationi et viaggi nel qual si contiene la descrittione dell'Africa, et del paese del Prete Ianni, con varii viaggi, dal mar Rosso a Calicut & infin all'isole Molucche, dove nascono le Spetiere et la navigatione attorno il mondo: li nomi de gli auttori, et le nauigationi... Page 113. Published by: appresso gli heredi di Lucantonio Giunti, 1550
    • ^ (Portuguese) Academia das Ciências de Lisboa. Collecção de noticias para a historia e geografia das nações ultramarinas: que vivem nos dominios portuguezes, ou lhes são visinhas. Page 33. Published by: Typ. da Academia, 1812.
    • ^ It is a corruption of the title "Damel" - the ruler of Wolof Cayor. See Kerr
    • ^ Robert Kerr. A general history of voyages and travels to the end of the 18th century. Page 220. Published by: J. Ballantyne & Co., 1811
    • ^ Frédérique Verrier. Introduction. Voyages en Afrique noire d'Alvise Ca'da Mosto (1455 & 1456). Page 136. Published by: Chandeigne, Paris, 1994
    • ^ Peter E. Russell. Prince Henry 'the Navigator': a life. New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press, 2000. Pages 299-300
    • ^ Robert Kerr. A general history of voyages and travels to the end of the 18th century. Page 239. Published by: J. Ballantyne & Co., 1811. (Italian) Giovanni Battista Ramusio. Primo volume delle nauigationi et viaggi nel qual si contiene la descrittione dell'Africa, et del paese del Prete Ianni, con varii viaggi, dal mar Rosso a Calicut & infin all'isole Molucche, dove nascono le Spetiere et la navigatione attorno il mondo: li nomi de gli auttori, et le nauigationi... Page 113. Published by: appresso gli heredi di Lucantonio Giunti, 1550. (Portuguese) Academia das Ciências de Lisboa. Collecção de noticias para a historia e geografia das nações ultramarinas: que vivem nos dominios portuguezes, ou lhes são visinhas Page 51. Published by: Typ. da Academia, 1812.
    • ^ See Kerr
    • ^ Alvise himself testifies to that see Kerr.
    • ^ See:
    • Issa Laye Thiaw, "La Religiosité des Sereer, Avant et Pendant Leur Islamisation". Éthiopiques, No: 54, Revue Semestrielle de Culture Négro-Africaine. Nouvelle Série, Volume 7, 2e Semestre 1991.
    • Henry Gravrand,La civilisation Sereer, Pangool, Dakar, Nouvelles Editions Africaines (1990)
    • Simone Kalis Medicine Traditionnel Religione et Divination chez les Seereer Siin du Senegal.
    • ^ See Kerr
    • ^ James F. Searing. God alone is king": Islam and emancipation in Senegal : the Wolof kingdoms of Kajoor and Bawol, 1859-1914,p20. Basing his book on the predominantly Muslim communities such as Wolof and the Fula accounts, James himself fell for the anti-Serer sentiments and referred to the Serers as without monarchy. This has been rebutted by historians such as Klein, Gravrand, Diouf etc.
    • ^ For the old Serer paternal dynasties and Wagadou maternal dynasties of Baol, See:
    • Lucie Gallistel Colvin. Historical Dictionary of Senegal. Scarecrow Press/ Metuchen. NJ - London (1981) ISBN 081081885x
    • ^ See Kerr
    • ^ Robert Kerr. A general history of voyages and travels to the end of the 18th century;;. Page 238. Published by: J. Ballantyne & Co., 1811.
    • ^ Robert Kerr. A general history of voyages and travels to the end of the 18th century. Page 237. Published by: J. Ballantyne & Co., 1811.
    • ^ James Stanier Clarke in The Progress of Maritime Discovery: From the Earliest Period to the Close of the Eighteenth Century, Forming an Extensive System of Hydrography... Page 94. Published by Cambridge University Press, 2010. ISBN 1108023851
    • ^ Andrew Burke and David Else. Gambia and Senegal, p16. Published by Lonely Planet, 2002. ISBN 1740591372
    • ^ John P. McKay. A History of World Societies: Since 1500. Volume 2, p641. Published by Houghton Mifflin, 1999. ISBN 0395944910
    • ^ Mungo Park and James Rennell. Travels in the interior districts of Africa: performed under the direction and patronage of the African Association, in the years 1795, 1796, and 1797, p16. Second edition. Published by Bulmer and Co. 1799
    • ^ See Kerr also: Evana Elbl. "Slaves Are A Very Risky Business..." Supply and Demand in the Early Atlantic Slave Trade, p36
    • ^ See
    • Martin A. Klein: Islam and Imperialism in Senegal
    • Henri Gravrand: La Civilisation Sereer, Pangool
    • ^ François G. Richard. "Recharting Atlantic encounters. Object trajectories and histories of value in the Siin (Senegal) and Senegambia". Archaeological Dialogues 17(1)1–27.Cambridge University Press 2010)
    • ^ François G. Richard. "Recharting Atlantic encounters. "Object trajectories and histories of value in the Siin (Senegal) and Senegambia". Archaeological Dialogues 17 (1) 1–27. Cambridge University Press 2010
    • ^ Alioune Sarr. Histoire du Sine-Saloum (Sénégal) Introduction, bibliographie et notes par Charles Becker. 1986-87.
    • ^ See also Klein, p90-91 and 103
    • ^ Klein p70-73
    • ^ Kébé. L’épopée de Maba Diakhou Ba du Rip (Sénégal), 1996.
    • Bassirou Dieng. Orality et Creation: L’épopée et l’islamisation des traditions de l’Ouest africain
    • ^ See Sarr; also: Klein p139-40
    • ^ John D. Hargreaves. West Africa Partitioned: The loaded pause, 1885-1889, p83-85. Published by University of Wisconsin Press, 1974
    • ^ See Sarr
    • ^ a b Galvan, Dennis Charles, The State Must Be Our Master of Fire: How Peasants Craft Culturally Sustainable Development in Senegal Berkeley, University of California Press, 2004 p.51
    • ^ Van de Walle, Étienne (2006). African Households: Censuses And Surveys. M.E. Sharpe. p. 80. ISBN 978-0765616197.