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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by BoNoMoJo (old) (talk | contribs) at 21:08, 13 November 2003. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Keeping the discussion in one place

I don't want to bifurcate this discussion from what has already been discussed earlier, but despite my painstaking efforts to copy and paste earlier discussion into one place, the discussion has become separated again. I don't want to rehash the same stuff again and again. So, for the sake of efficiency, I'm going to move the naming-convention-articles and their talk pages back into one place at least for the time being. B 19:34, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Note that this discussion has split into at least two places. I'm going to avoid commenting further, to give B enough time to refactor the discussion into a single place. --Uncle Ed 19:56, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ok I think all the relevant discussion is in place again. B 20:06, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Old discussion from various articles relating to naming convention

Members of the church prefer to avoid the (often pejorative) label "Mormons" and reference to the church as the "Mormon Church". I have preserved initial use of these terms (offered as frequently-used alternatives) to enable searching, but have altered them in the larger body to more neutral and common words like "church members" (&c). Also, I altered one paragraph that used terms like "claimed" and "allegedly" with distracting frequency for such a small body of text. --branteaton 

This is fuzzier nowadays - some people dislike it, and others
don't mind.  It's also commonly used within the church when
speaking casually.  Its connotations seem to swing back and
forth every so often...

Why should it matter what they like or dislike? This is an encyclopedia. Members of the church are commonly called Mormons; this is an important fact that should be reported. If you want to also report that they dislike this fact, that's good too. --LDC

Lee, this fact is reported and retained in the beginning of the article. The text that follows then refers to Mormons as "members" or "adherents," or somesuch. An article about any group may diplomatically contain mention of a pejorative label, and use more neutral language in the rest of the article. This sort of policy or convention seems appropriate in Wikipedial treatment of all groups. --BrantEaton

Yes, I think the article as it is now is fine. I just wanted to make the point that the term preferred by the people being described is not necessarily the most neutral or most accurate one. We should respect other beliefs, but we shouldn't coddle them at the expense of clarity. --LDC

The LDS church has their official statement on the matter here: http://www.lds.org/media2/library/display/0,6021,198-1-168-15,FF.html Should this be worked into the article? [The statement has moved since the link was posted to it. —B]

I think it is essential to maintain the term Mormon, because Mormonism is wider than just the LDS church -- there is also the RLDS church, the polygamy practicing groups, and various other groups (Hendricites, Strangites, Bickertonites, Church of Christ Temple Lot, Church of Christ Elijah Message). We need a term to describe all these groups collectively, since (whichever one if any is right) they are all closely related in historical origin, beliefs and practices. Thus I would use Mormonism as a collective term for all those groups which see Joseph Smith as their founder; therefore LDS shouldn't be called Mormonism, but rather a particular Mormon sect/denomination. -- Simon J Kissane

Simon, I believe the common practice is to apply the term "Mormon" and "Mormonism" only to the Utah church. This doesn't make a lot of sense, because all of the groups accept the Book of Mormon, or at least trace their origin to it. But nevertheless I believe this is established practice. I think this came about because the term "Mormon" was so closely associated in the public mind with the doctrine and practice of polygamy, which the RLDS (in particular) rejected. I agree that a general term to include all the derivative churches would be very useful, but I think that using "Mormon" and "Mormonism" for this purpose would be confusing. I believe the term "Restoration churches" is sometimes used in this sense. - Hank Ramsey

Well Melton, the respected religion scholar, uses the term in the sense I do in his "Encyclopedia of American Religions". -- Simon J Kissane

As far as I know, all groups involved do not want the term "Mormon" and "Mormonism" to refer to all such groups. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn't like the term "Mormonism" to begin with, and would rather restrict the term "Mormon" to refer to people of their faith.

The RLDS church never liked the appellation "Mormon" and has now, in fact, even changed their name to something entirely different. I don't know about the other sects, but I truly doubt they would take fondly to being called "Mormons".

Perhaps some other word/phrase could be used that seems more impartial? "Restoration churches" seems too broad ... maybe simply refer to the group as "denominations who consider Joseph Smith their founder"? I'm at a loss here, but I think that to refer to this group as "Mormons" would simply confuse most people and offend some. -- Dlugar

As an encyclopedia article ostensibly written for the neutral point of view, it would be good to explain what the common usage of the term "Mormon" is, and then state how the various groups do or do not identify themselves with it. Reality is that the general public uses the term Mormon, and a Wikipedia reader will probably come searching for it. It would be unhelpful to have the article take pedantic view that is too narrow. --Alan Millar

"Mormon" appears in the body of the article, enabling searchers to find it. A separate article Mormons discusses some groups that can or have been identified by that label. --branteaton

Perhaps this has been debated elsewhere, but shouldn't we strive to use the correct name[s] for the Church where possible?

From http://www.lds.org/newsroom/page/0,15606,3899-1---15-168,00.html, we have the Church's preferences clearly stated. I have no problem with these preferences, given that we universally allow entities (both individual, corporate, and religious) to choose their own names.

Specifically, I'd like to reduce the amount of times we see "LDS Church" in favor of the correct title. And I'd like to go ahead and use "Mormonism" when this makes sense ("the Mormons" refers to a people, not the body of doctrine, history, and culture). But I'm not trying to rock the boat. Is there any consensus on this isssue? LennyG

This was debated quite a bit and archived I believe, but I haven't read it. Regardless, I feel significantly dogmatic about this subject (even if I don't apply it consistently sometimes). I'm partial to the "LDS Church" usage, just because it is more specific than "the Church" and it is nicely shorter than the full name or "the Church of Jesus Christ". However, I absolutely agree that certain parts of the Church's style guide should be strictly followed: All references in wiki to "Mormon Church", "LDS Church" or "the Church of the Latter-day Saints" or the like should be changed to one of the acceptable formats. One of us interested folks should start going through the articles to make sure that they are all consistent and make changes where needed. This should include a change to "Latter-day Saints" where "Mormons" is used unless it is clear that the reference is intended to be used in a broader sense. There are also articles (many mine, I'm sure) where the a reference to the Church is followed by a parenthetical like "(LDS/Mormon)". Use of parentheticals like that is a poor practice too. B

I don't see why we have to pay attention solely to what the Church wants. Suppose the legal name of some bloke is Jeremiah Smith but he started a cult and now wishes to be solely known as The almighty ruler of the universe in bold italics. Calling him as he calls himself is a violation of NPOV for the billions of people who don't see Jeremiah as the almighty ruler of the universe. Calling him Jeremiah Smith is a violation of NPOV for him and a handful of his followers, and is clearly the lesser evil.

Similarly, the LDS Church might wish to be referred to as "the Church of Jesus Christ", but this is violating NPOV for the billions of people who consider that the LDS church is not the church at all, but rather one of a number of such churches.

I'm not saying that the wishes of the LDS Church should be ignored, but they should be weighed against other concerns, such as:

Martin


I agree that we don't have to do "what the Church wants," and I didn't mean to imply that we should bow to their requests at any time. BUT, I do think that their request is reasonable. The difference between this and the "almighty ruler of the universe" example is that one appears reasonable while the other does not. Let me give another example, that of the "Houston Oilers" NFL franchise, which moved recently to Tennessee and became the "Titans." Do we continue to call them the "Oilers," even though that's all they were ever known as for a long span of years? The answer is "no," even though there might be a few diehard Oilers fans out there who would disagree.

And the Church has an even stronger position in many ways: it was named "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" on its founding day in 1830. The various nicknames have an important historical context and should not be erased or never mentioned; all I'm saying is that whenever possible, we should use the correct name. Perhaps from some perspective the shortened "The Church of Jesus Christ" pushes the envelope of NPOV, but there are good arguments on both sides of that point.

I do agree that the term we use to describe should be weighed against the three concerns you mention. LennyG

Hi, Martin. Thanks for joining in. Neither of us is suggesting that the Church's preferences are or should be the sole determining factor here. Since you probably know that I'm committed to abiding by wiki policies and making wiki a non-partisan endeavor, then you probably know that when I say that I'm dogmatic about the naming convention it is because in light of other factors that should be considered, I feel that the Church's preferences are consistent with wiki policies and should be respected. As your example points out, avoiding offence can cut many ways. "Mormon" began as a pejorative term by detractors of the Church. It is offensive to refer to the Church as "Mormon Church" or "LDS Church"; the Church does not purport to be the church of the disciples of Mormon or the church that is dictated by the Latter-day Saints. The primary issue here is in title brevity and brevity in articles once that the full name is stated and the Church is referred to repeatedly afterward. These points should be relatively uncontroversial:

  • the first reference to the Church in any article should be by its full, formal, conventional and legal name
  • usage of the shorthand version in articles and titles should be consistent throughout wiki
  • usage of "the Church" is ok in wiki
  • "Mormon Church" should not be used at all
  • avoidance of offense and courtesy take priority over brevity (even in titles)

Here is what I propose (which is consistent with wiki policy and the Church's preference):

  • do not use "LDS", "LDS Church", "Mormon Church" or "the Church of Jesus Christ"
  • use the Church's full name only in articles and only as the first reference or when necessary to clearly refer to the Church
  • articles that are titled like "Priesthood (LDS)" should be titled like "Priesthood (Mormonism)"
  • "Latter-day Saints" should be used over "Mormons"

If no one disagrees, let's see if we can get by for now using these guidelines going forward and we'll revisit the issue if it doesn't seem to be working... B

I think this is an excellent compromise. Use the official full name upon first reference, a simple "the Church" instead of "the Church of Jesus Christ" thereafter where it is unambiguous (perhaps considering this abbreviation or the full name when needed to disambiguate), and use "Mormonism" as a descriptor for the rest. LennyG

The only problem I see with this compromise is that "the Church" is used in many other contexts to refer to either the aggregation of everyone who calls themself a Christian, some other particular "branch" of Christianity, or to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church referred to in the Nicene Creed. Perhaps to avoid this confusion, the first reference could include the full name followed by "(hereinafter referred to simply as the Church)", and leaving the references as they are. Would everyone find this clarifying addition to the beginning acceptable? As an aside, why would referring to them as the LDS Church for brevity be objectionable, as it appears to be a simple contraction of the full name? Wesley 15:27 9 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Wesley, I think you and Lenny are suggesting the same thing: full name in the first use, then abbreviated use thereafter. "LDS Church" is only a partial contraction of the full name. From a Latter-day Saint POV, use of "LDS Church" is objectionable for the same reason that "Mormon Church" is objectionable: it claims to be the church of Jesus Christ, not the church of (the) Mormon(s) nor the church of the Latter-day Saints. —B 22:43, Nov 12, 2003 (UTC)
I think I can go along with abbreviating it as "the Church" in most cases, as long as the first usage contains the full name so it's clear what is meant. There might be a few instances where something like "LDS Church" might be needed to disambiguate it from other groups. This shouldn't be seen as pejorative or a negation of the Church's claims, but comparable to how many articles use terms like "Roman Catholic Church" or "Eastern Orthodox Church" to clarify who is meant, even though the first could well argue that they extend far beyond Rome and have Patriarchs all over, and the second isn't just Eastern anymore but has a presence throughout the world. And both also claim to be the church of Jesus Christ.
As far as calling members Latter-day Saints, I suppose that can work as long as the context makes clear who is meant. My personal idea of a latter-day saint of course would be someone like Saint John of Shanghai and San Francisco, who lived in the 20th century and was officially dubbed an Orthodox saint I think sometime in the 1980s, well known for his piety and his miracles. In the articles here, given context, we can probably avoid that sort of confusion fairly easily. Wesley 13:03, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

[The article styled, Controversies regarding Mormonism, ]"Regarding" is kinda clumsy and anti-style -- someone should rename this. -戴&#30505sv 01:15, Sep 5, 2003 (UTC)

OLD DISCUSSION ENDS HERE

I think the term "Mormonism" should be avoided. This is a term used primarily by church opponents, so it's not suitable as a "neutral" term. We could say, however, that a particular church critic refers to LDS beliefs as "Mormonism".

I see no problem with using "LDS" whenever convenient. The church's website is http://www.lds.org and I've heard members use the acronym frequently. --Uncle Ed 15:32, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Ed, have you even bothered to read the prior discussion on this subject: Naming conventions (Mormon)?! Or even noticed Visorstuff's post and mine to YOU a few days ago!? The Church's website itself explicitly states: "The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." As a sixth-generation Mormon, I'm not happy with your well-intentioned, poorly executed attempt to NPOV Church and Mormon related articles. I specifically setup this naming convention article to avoid the sort of reckless, uncollaborative editing you and Anome have undertaken. I'm pissed! B 17:53, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Ed, don't get me wrong. I want you and Anome and whoever else (the more the merrier) to participate and help formulate the convention, but you guys were not paying attention. Let's try and get on the same page and have some consensus before you start making dramatic changes like that. Maybe we should go in the direction you've driven recently, but let's have some discussion first and get on the same page, please. At the moment, I think your changes are for the worse, not the better. B 17:59, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Ed Poor comments

Well, I sympathize with the bloke [above] who wrote the following at Naming conventions (Mormon):

This was debated quite a bit and archived I believe, but I haven't read it. Regardless, I feel significantly dogmatic about this subject (even if I don't apply it consistently sometimes). I'm partial to the "LDS Church" usage, just because it is more specific than "the Church" and it is nicely shorter than the full name or "the Church of Jesus Christ".
I am the bloke above who wrote that. As a newbie wikipedian I used that terminology...but you didn't complete the whole quote in which I said: "However....All references in wiki to "Mormon Church", "LDS Church" or "the Church of the Latter-day Saints" or the like should be changed to one of the acceptable formats." B 20:13, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

Here's my take: I don't it when people refer to my own religion, Unificationism, as "the Moonies" -- although on some occasions I admit that nickname kind of tickles my funnybone, as it reminds me of The Monkees, one of my favorite Sixties rock groups (not to mention a bosso keen TV show!).

Similarly, I think we ought to avoid put-down words like "Mormonism" in any context that requires neutral terminology. If only LDS opponents use it, that would be kind of like letting pro-life forces win the name game by referring to all abortion rights activists as "anti-life"; we have pretty much agreed to call them "pro-choice" instead here at Wikipedia.

Neither Mormonism nor Mormon are necessarily put-downs...it depends on the context. B 20:15, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
Of course, and Mark Twain was not being racist when he called the darkies niggers in Huckleberry Finn. The question, of course, is whether Wikipedia articles should use niggers rather than blacks in articles. And likewise whether Mormonism is the best way to refer to LDS doctrines or practices. --Uncle Ed 20:19, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

When we need an abbreviation, "LDS" is ideal. They call themselves "Latter-Day Saints" or maybe "Latter-day Saints", but we can simply call them "members" of their "church" in every case where this isn't ambiguous.

Okay, they have the longest official church name of anybody in the whole world: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". So what? My own church is, technically, "The Holy Spiritual Association for the Unification of Christianity", and it isn't really supposed to be a "church", let alone a "denomination", but that hasn't stopped us from adopting an abbreviation that everyone can use: the "Unification Church".

So, let's refer to Mormons as "members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" where needed, and then call them "Latter Day Saints" or simply "members" thereafter.

What's all the fuss? --Uncle Ed 18:15, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

If we can agree that Mormon and Mormonism are only pejorative depending on context, I suggest that Mormonism is a useful shorthand reference because it covers both the Church and Mormons. If the name of the Church or some abbreviation of it is used, then the topic of the article becomes too narrow because not every person who can claim to be a Mormon is necessarily a member of the Church. Mormonism is a much broader term and also a term which even the Church itself finds acceptable to referring to its doctrine, culture, etc. B 20:29, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)

If we need a broad term to cover "every person who can claim to be a Mormon", fine. If the Church itself finds the term Mormonism acceptable, fine.

But hardly any part of any of the dozens of articles I've recently read or skimmed concern non-mainstream LDS members or doctrine, so I don't see how that applies. Nor have I seen anything to indicate even a grudging acceptance of the term Mormonism by the mainstream LDS church. --Uncle Ed 20:35, 13 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I quote again the Church's explicitly policy at its website: "The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." The mainstream Church does accept use of the term Mormonism in reference to itself. B 21:08, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
I agree that generally articles related to Mormonism now focus on the Church and its members rather than non-Church-member-Mormons, but eventually Mormonism related articles will be filled out more broadly. Your last comment about grudging acceptance seems to contradict your comment that the Church finds the term acceptable. B 21:01, Nov 13, 2003 (UTC)
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