Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints)

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(Latter-Day Saints) vs (LDS Church) Parentheticals[edit]

I know this has been discussed before. (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) However, it was last dissed in 2006, so thing may be different, so I'm bringing it up again.

A discussion related to Parentheticals, i.e. (Latter Day Saints) vs (LDS Church), has come up on Talk:President of the Church. I was attempting to break off the LDS Church section and create President of the Church (LDS Church). However, JonRidinger (talk) brought up the issue that Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC would suggest that the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Latter Day Saints) is doing things backward. Trying to explain his ideas, I think he is saying that Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC would suggest that pages about the LDS Church should be without Parentheticals, and general Latter Day Saint pages should us (Parentheticals). Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC reads:

A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.

JonRidinger points out that since the LDS Church accounts for some 98% of the Latter Day Saint movement, it would seem that articles without Parentheticals should be the LDS Church pages, with broader "Latter Day Saint movement" version using (Latter Day Saints). For example:

Currently appears as
 General Latter-Day Saint Topic  LDS Church Specific Community of Christ Specific
First Presidency First Presidency (LDS Church) First Presidency (Community of Christ)
Quorum of the Twelve  Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)  Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Community of Christ)
Should appear as (per Wikipedia:PRIMARYTOPIC)
 General Latter-Day Saint Topic  LDS Church Specific Community of Christ Specific
First Presidency (Latter Day Saints) First Presidency First Presidency (Community of Christ)
Quorum of the Twelve (Latter Day Saints) Quorum of the Twelve Apostles Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Community of Christ)

A part of me thinks he's right. However, the issues I have are

  1. It may give the LDS Church to much of a pro-POV. Since a large number of sects use the same terms, we may be relegating them to hard to find pages. The other sects may not be properly represented.
  2. The Latter-Day Saints movement includes that LDS Church. Since all LDS Church pages are part of the Latter-Day Saints movement it seems backwards to make the Main page only about the LDS Church and the Parenthetical page about the Latter-Day Saints movement as a whole. Kind of like making the "Dog" page use Dog (Mutt), because the most common bread is mutt, if that makes sense.
  3. Latter-Day Saints movement came first. Again this gose along with #2. Since the general Latter-Day Saints movement was first then shouldn't it get the main page?
  4. Someone is going to have to change a huge number of pages.

I thought I would bring this up hear, since it effect the standard Naming convention.--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Previously I was leaning toward PRIMARY mattering most on the naming of the President of the Church articles, but I can see now that there is a more central argument for things staying how they are: NPOV is core policy, and it trumps PRIMARY. If the article titled "President of the Church" is LDS Church specific, it does seem that we are giving credence to the LDS Church being the true continuance/successor to the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints) founded by Joseph Smith in 1830. Regardless of my personal convictions about that topic, WP can't be seen as taking an editorial stance on that question. -- (talk) 21:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
That in itself is a POV statement from a Latter Day Saint perspective. From a Wikipedia perspective, we're simply recognizing that the LDS Church is far better known than the other groups in the movement based on sheer numbers and available sources. It has nothing to do with "giving credence" to any position that the LDS Church is the "true successor". --JonRidinger (talk) 00:08, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with much of what has been said above. There is an issue of POV if we choose to make the LDS Church institutions the primary meaning of these terms which are common throughout the movement. I would generally be in favour of keeping things how they are right now. I too have reversed my !vote at the POTC discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I would say that it's not us "choosing to make the LDS Church institutions the primary meaning...", but rather a case of us recognizing the reality that they already are based on sources available. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
I meant us as WP editors choosing to convert President of the Church into a page solely about the LDS Church's institution. I wasn't referring to objective reality outside of WP, but I understand what you mean. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:05, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for moving it here! I definitely think we need to examine how we name articles in this project. I think our desire to be "fair" and not allow articles to be exclusively LDS is one cause, but also the general view of looking at the movement as being equally known as and encompassing the LDS Church. Instead, we should be looking at the individual organizations, one of which has 15 million members, one with 250,000, and the rest with a few thousand or a few hundred members. While "Latter Day Saint movement" is great for categorizing and grouping these many articles together, that doesn't mean the movement itself is as known as or better known. To answer each point:
1. Wikipedia isn't about equal representation, it's about notability. Because the LDS Church is significantly larger than the other Latter Day Saint movement denominations, not only does the Church itself have a significant presence in the search for sources, but most secondary sources that use the respective terms (President of the Church, First Presidency, etc.) are likely going to be referring to the LDS Church. All of the articles would have a hatnote as well, mentioning the broader, but lesser-known, use of the term, just like with any primary topic that has multiple articles with the same or very similar names. We deal much the same with city articles. I used the example of Cleveland being the article on the city in Ohio even though there are many cities called Cleveland, some of which are older. Another example is Miami and Miami (disambiguation).
2. Again, it's about notability. While the movement does include the LDS Church, which is more known? I don't think anyone can argue that for the vast majority of people, especially those outside any of the Latter Day Saint denominations, the LDS Church is far more well-known than the overall movement. My experience in Northeast Ohio and elsewhere in the United States has been that most people have heard of the "Mormons", but have no idea that there are other denominations besides the "Mormon Church" in Utah. Even locally, most do not realize the Kirtland Temple isn't owned by the LDS Church. I've lost count how many times I've had to explain that to people and how the Community of Christ is related! (and yes, I realize that's anecdotal) :)
3. Notability and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC aren't determined by first, but by better-known. On top of that, all Latter Day Saint movement denominations consider themselves to have been founded at the same time; it's all a matter of perspective as to which "came first".
4. True, though one person doesn't have to do them all, nor would they have to all happen soon. It is something that needs to be discussed as more articles are created. It's also not a must that all need to be changed. I would take it case by case, though I do think in most cases, if it's a uniquely Latter Day Saint term (i.e. not used by other churches/organizations) the LDS Church uses, the LDS usage is most likely going to be the primary topic. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
As for WP:NPOV, I'm not seeing how recognizing the LDS versions as the primary topic would violate that. Again, it's not about equality here, it's about notability. Stating that the LDS definition of a term shared with other Latter Day Saint denominations is better known isn't a simple matter of point of view, it's also a matter of numbers. Even if all the other Latter Day Saint denominations used the same definition, it would still be used by no more than 300,000 people vs. 15 million. That's on top of searching for sources for the various terms. It would be like saying the article on Miami should be "Miami, Florida" since it's POV to say Miami, Florida is the primary topic over things like the Miami people or smaller towns like Miami, Texas. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
  • An interesting discussion, in which I hope to comment further when I'm not on my way out the door. Very quickly, though, here's one idea that I don't think has been discussed yet that might resolve the issue: make the generic term a redirect to the most common usage, and add the disambiguating parenthetical onto the broad term articles.
 General Latter-Day Saint Topic  LDS Church Specific Community of Christ Specific Redirect to LDS Church specific topic
First Presidency (Latter Day Saints) First Presidency (LDS Church) First Presidency (Community of Christ) First Presidency
Quorum of the Twelve (Latter Day Saints)  Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church)  Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Community of Christ) Quorum of the Twelve
I've used up my meager WP time for the day, but I'll comment further when I get the chance. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:56, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
It's certainly a possibility, though I would say it isn't necessary. There seems to be a desire to look at each denomination of the Latter Day Saint movement as equally notable, when that is simply not the case. It would be one thing if the LDS Church were somewhat larger than the rest, but it is significantly larger than all the others combined on top of being far more known based on secondary sources. Again, it has nothing to do with POV.
That said, in looking at MOS:TITLES, in some instances, we have unnecessary disambiguation that can be addressed beside the shared terminology articles. "Quorum of the Twelve Apostles" is used by the LDS Church and the Bickertonites, so clearly there, the LDS Church, at 1,250 times the size of the Bickertonites (15 million vs. 12,000), is the primary topic. It naturally disambiguates from Quorum of the Twelve, which is the broader Latter Day Saint movement article. The Community of Christ calls theirs the "Council of Twelve Apostles" and there is no other organization using that name, yet the title currently includes "(Community of Christ)" suggesting there is another Council of Twelve Apostles of equal or greater notability. Articles that have natural disambiguation don't need parentheticals. Currently, both Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and Council of Twelve Apostles direct to Quorum of the Twelve. Instead, Council of Twelve Apostles (Community of Christ) should be Council of Twelve Apostles and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (LDS Church) should be Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (Bickertonite article would stay as is), with appropriate hatnotes on them and other related articles. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)