Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Can't Hold Us Down/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Can't Hold Us Down[edit]

Can't Hold Us Down (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): WikiRedactor (talk · contribs) and Simon (talk) 15:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We are nominating this for featured article because we feel that it meets the FA criteria. We have followed the style of other music-related FAs, so we hope it is ready for the gold star — Simon (talk) 15:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a good amount of scholarly literature addressing this song.

  • Your references to Gendered (Re)Visions are incorrect. You're actually citing "Independent women? Feminist discourse in music videos" by Linda Besigiroha, pp. 227-52. The names you cite are the volume's editors.
  • I've added a couple of sources which should be cited on the article talk page.
  • The way you cite book publication locations is odd, and your publishing information seems off.

I'll hopefully give this a full review at some point, but you should look into those sources. J Milburn (talk) 23:54, 10 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the formatting on the sources you currently use, but I do recommend you look into those I've raised on the talk page. J Milburn (talk) 00:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for fixing the references. — Simon (talk) 12:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've only just realised that I completed the GA review... In any case...

  • In the lead, I'd like to see a mention of whether the track won the Grammy (if not, a link to what did wouldn't hurt) and I'd like to see more about what's been said by academics- we've got at least four separate academic works which discuss it, which is unusual for a not-so-successful pop song!
Done, those were some great sources you found!
  • "However, she was dissatisfied with being marketed as a bubblegum pop singer, an effort pushed by her then-manager Steve Kurtz, because of the genre's financial lure." Comma abuse- she was dissatisfied by the financial lure? Lose comma after "Kurtz"?
Done
  • "By late 2000, Aguilera parted ways with Kurtz" Either "By late 2000, A had parted..." or "In late 2000, A parted...". Your current way doesn't make sense
Done
  • " Hip hop producer Scott Storch wrote and produced several tracks for the album, including "Can't Hold Us Down".[4] Aguilera and Matt Morris are additionally given writing credits for the song.[5]" Irritating tense switch
Done
  • "Stylus Magazine's Todd Burns praised the dancehall-influenced melody nearing the end of the track, but opining that the production was overshadowed by underwhelming songwriting." This doesn't even make sense
Done
  • "It also appeared on the same list published" Same as what? This is unclear.
Done; this whole paragraph has actually been redone.
  • "In Europe, "Can't Hold Us Down" reached the top ten charts of several territories: it was a success on the Hungarian Singles Chart, where it peaked at number four.[30] The song additionally reached number five on the Irish Singles Chart and number six on the UK Singles Chart.[31][32]" This is clumsy
  • "On the Danish Singles Chart, "Can't Hold Us Down" peaked at number eight, while its highest position on the German Media Control Charts was number nine.[35]" Both those claims are cited to footnote 35- is this correct?
Done
  • It's such a waste that the Besigiroha source is just used for factual stuff related to the happenings in the music video and what people were wearing. Is there no proper analysis?
  • "while her nose is attached with a gold piercing" What does that even mean?
Done; I rewrote that sentence to be more straight-forward.
  • "The AV Club wrote" Clumsy personification
Done
  • The last paragraph of the music video section is very difficult to follow. The quotes don't seem to quite fit in the sentences that support them...
Done; I removed some pieces that I didn't even know were added into the article to make the last paragraph more cohesive.
  • "Aguilera performed "Can't Hold Us Down" on Justified and Stripped Tour" the tour? her tour?
Done; added "her" to complete the sentence.
  • The issue with the release history section is that it doesn't include a number of countries in which the single charted- did it chart without release, or could it be that these release lists are always going to be incomplete?

This doesn't feel quite there yet, but it's certainly not a bad article, as far as pop songs go. J Milburn (talk) 20:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The writing, in places, doesn't really strike me as FA-worthy. The composition section and the music video section, for instance, don't read as well as they could; fine for GAC, but not really FAC.

I addressed some of the issues you've raised above today, and I expect that I will be able to complete the rest of them tomorrow. Even if the article is not promoted for FA, the corrections you've commented on are certainly great pointers to maintain its GA status, and I appreciate your time! WikiRedactor (talk) 22:24, 12 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'd recommend moving the journal articles into the bibliography section and citing them in the same way as the book sources. J Milburn (talk) 18:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
WikiRedactor has added the information, while I have reordered the article — Simon (talk) 05:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support: WikiRedactor and Simon, the article is fantastic!

Suggestions:

  • ""Can't Hold Us Down" is a song by American recording artist Christina Aguilera featuring rapper Lil' Kim, taken from Aguilera's fourth studio album, Stripped (2002)." I think the first sentence of the lead can be more clear and should highlight the notability – a feminist theme that criticizes gender-related double standards. I’d recommend: ""Can't Hold Us Down" is a song from the fourth studio album Stripped (2002) of the American recording artist Christina Aguilera that has a feminist theme criticizing gender-related double standards." The part "featuring rapper Lil' Kim" can come in the next sentence, I believe.
  • For me the "feminist theme" belongs to the composition and should come after "featuring Lil' Kim" part
  • "However, she was dissatisfied with being marketed as a bubblegum pop singer, an effort pushed by her then-manager Steve Kurtz because of the genre's financial lure." (I think it should be "then manager". I’d prefer a rephrasing similar to "However, she was dissatisfied with being marketed as a bubblegum pop singer, an effort pushed by Steve Kurtz, her manager at that time, because of the genre's financial lure.")
  • "In late 2000, Aguilera parted ways with Kurtz and hired a new manager Irving Azoff, in addition to announcing that her forthcoming album would have more musical and lyrical depth." (I’d recommend a rephrasing: "In late 2000, Aguilera replaced Kurtz with Irving Azoff. She also announced that her forthcoming album would have more musical and lyrical depth." The portion "parted ways with Kurtz" appears a bit euphemistic and redundant when combined with "hired a new manager" assuming that a singer doesn’t have two managers at a particular point of time. I’d also recommend, a bit tentatively, that the sentence be broken into two fragments at "in addition" to avoid giving an impression that Kurtz prevented her from giving "more musical and lyrical depth". Also this announcement appears vague to me. Was she choosing shallow lyrics and musical style in her earlier albums deliberately? Was it a result of some criticism that they were shallow? Please feel free to rephrase it differently or ignore the suggestion altogether.)
  • "Aguilera and Matt Morris were additionally given writing credits for the song." (I’m not sure what "additionally" means here. In addition to what? It’s the second time I encountered some form of "addition" in an otherwise very short Background section, sounds boring. Overall I’d recommend a style conducive for the nonspecialist reader.)
  • "Lyrically, "Can't Hold Us Down" has a feminist theme,[11] as it criticizes the "common" gender-related double standards, in which men are applauded for their sexual behaviors, while women who behave in a similar fashion are looked down upon." (Can we have a single word for "looked down upon"? How about "disdained" or "scorned"?)
  • Changed to disdained — Simon (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "RCA Records serviced "Can't Hold Us Down" to mainstream radio stations in the United States as the fourth single from Stripped on July 8, 2003." (I’d prefer "aired".)
  • "The song was also distributed as a CD single from September to October 2003 in several countries worldwide by RCA Records and Sony Music Entertainment." (For the sake of clarity, I’d recommend a rephrasing similar to: "From September to October 2003, the song was also distributed as a CD single in several countries by RCA Records and Sony Music Entertainment." The portion "several countries worldwide" appears too broad and vague to me. Can we have few examples of countries to reinforce the fact that the distribution was "worldwide" and not restricted to a single continent?)
  • I think the sentence "Stylus Magazine's Todd Burns was underwhelmed by the lyrical content of the track and felt that those shortcomings overshadowed its stronger production; however, he appreciated the dancehall-influenced melody that appeared at the end of the track. " can be broken into simpler sentences to make it easier to follow. Can we have some other word for "underwhelmed" here? Which "shortcomings"? The "lyrical content of the track" is simply lyrics. Howz it a shortcoming is not clear to me?
  • "Jacqueline Hodges wring for BBC Music appreciated Lil's Kim's inclusion on the track for adding "a bit of edge"." (spelling)
  • "Josh Kun of Spin wrote a favorable review of the song, complimenting the confrontational lyrics for being more aggressive than the works of Britney Spears." (confrontational and aggressive, appear a bit repetitive to me. Can we have a rephrasing here? I’d recommend something similar to: "Josh Kun of Spin praised the song for its aggressive lyrical style which he felt was even better than the works of Britney Spears." I know it’s not good :). But, can you think of a better wording?)
  • "In 2009, Nick Levine from Digital Spy and Nick Butler of Sputnikmusic shared disappointment toward the song's absence from Aguilera's greatest hits album Keeps Gettin' Better: A Decade of Hits." (I think it should be "towards". Can you rephrase it without the "song’s absence" construct? I believe that the sentence can be rephrased to make it easy to follow. I’d recommend: "In 2009, Nick Levine from Digital Spy and Nick Butler of Sputnikmusic shared disappointment because the song could not make it to Keeps Gettin' Better: A Decade of Hits, an album featuring Aguilera's greatest hits.")
  • "In Europe, "Can't Hold Us Down" reached the top ten charts of several territories: it was a success on the Hungarian Singles Chart, where it peaked at number four." (I’d prefer "countries" over "territories". Also, the part "it was a success on the Hungarian Singles Chart, where it peaked at number four" should be in a separate sentence because there are other examples of European countries following this statement. How about a new paragraph for Europe?)
  • "LaChapelle described the video's concept as his "ode to the '80s"." I’d prefer "the concept of the video".
  • "In the clip, Aguilera wears a pink sleeveless shirt, a sleeveless sport jacket, a pair of shorts, a mauve baseball cap embroidered with the words "Lady C", and white long socks." (Simply, embroidered with "Lady C". The use of "the words" appears superfluous to me.)
  • I think that if "the words" is removed it would be misleading — Simon (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The music video received mixed reviews from critics:" (or simply, "The music video received mixed reviews:")
  • "Watson felt that the video exemplified cultural appropriation, specifically noting how Aguilera conducted herself as an African-American women" (women or woman?)
  • Andy Cohn from The Fader provided a more favorable review, and opined that Aguilera's "sass" helped to highlight her Irish and Eduadorian background. (The source says "Somehow it’s deep-rooted in Christina’s Irish-Ecuadorian roots which technically gives her a ‘hood pass, but not the John Mayer kind." Spelling of Ecuadorian.)

Besides that, I think the article looks excellent. WikiRedactor and Simon, please feel free to strike out any recommendation you think will not help in improving the article. All the best, --Seabuckthorn ♥ 06:34, 21 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am considering your comments before editing them. Thank you so much for your comments. Cheers, — Simon (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment -- Sorry but with relatively little commentary after a month, and in fact nil activity for a couple of weeks, I can't see consensus to promote being achieved any time soon, so I'll be archiving this shortly. I realise you've taken it through GAN and PR so you've done the right things (though PR was obviously barren), but the FAC list is so long right now that the chances of attracting drive-by reviewers is reduced -- I'm trying to address that by archiving slow reviews like this, so perhaps a re-nom down the track will have more luck. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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