thanks, the link was fine last time I checked, but it's timing out interminently today. Removed for now, I'll restore if it becomes stable again Jimfbleak -talk to me? 14:43, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
OK, perhaps you can use some kind of archiving service. Ucucha 14:48, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
"The Crag Martin's is slow"; dos not make sense to me.Snowman (talk) 16:21, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
rephrased as The Crag Martin's flight appears relatively slow for a swallow. Rapid...
The flight speed is in the description section, but it is nothing to do with description.Snowman (talk) 16:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
How the bird appears in flight is part of the description (as in other bird FAs), and details of the speed seem to complement that. It seems more natural to put the speed with the rest of the flight description than put it in another section (which?) Jimfbleak -talk to me? 05:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Comments: Disclosure: I was the GA reviewer of the article
Checked images. All images are fine in terms of license and caption. Added 1 more img.
I checked few Wikipedia:WikiProject Birds FAs to check the general layout of these articles. Two sections "Relationship with humans (Cultural depictions)" and an explicit "Evolution" section missing. If Taxonomy covers the known info about evolution, then I suggest a rename: "Taxonomy and evolution". As this bird dwells in man-made structures, they may have an interaction with humans and thus the "Relationship with humans (Cultural depictions)" may be needed. I am not expert in this field, so it is quite possible that RS do not cover these aspects or the section like "Relationship with humans" may not be applicable. --RedtigerxyzTalk 13:47, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
thanks for comments and the great image, which I must have overlooked (unlike its close relatives, at least there is a choice for the Eurasian bird!) There is really nothing on the evolution other than what can be deduced from the taxonomy; the only fossils are of this species, not of an ancestral form, and given the close relationship with other swallows, it would be difficult to indentify an proto-crag martin if one were found. With small birds like these, the fossil record is bound to be a bit thin. In other words, the only guide to evolution is the DNA-derived taxonomy, so I'd rather leave the heading as it is, unless you feel the change is justified anyway. There is really nothing I can find on culture. Although the Crag Martin does breed on buildings, this is still much less common than using its natural habitat in the high mountains. The only European swallows with any significant cultural content are Barn Swallow and to a lesser extent House Martin, both, as their names suggest, much more closely attached to human habitation. Thanks again Jimfbleak -talk to me? 15:12, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
Partial (not complete) SUPPORT on all criteria except 1b (comprehensiveness) and 1c (partly, "a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic"). I am not the right person to judge those, though I should remark that this article is the best article about the subject on the net, I could find. --RedtigerxyzTalk 06:09, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
... Do you have doubts that the article might fail on criteria 1b and 1c? Snowman (talk) 13:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I've searched everything I can access, I'm not sure how this is actionable, but thanks for partial support Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Complete Support: I believe that Ucucha (who has written similar articles) has explained the information and also added a little more information. I also observe that Snowman's comments and edits have improved the article. I will take Jimfbleak's word that this article can not have the missing sections I pointed as they are irrelevant here. Good work. --RedtigerxyzTalk 12:49, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
many thanks, it's unusual to get so much input from reviewers, but good. I've move your comment to left edge as recommended Jimfbleak -talk to me? 14:39, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
"When feeding young, adults mainly forage in the best hunting areas in the immediate vicinity of the nest, since there is a negative correlation between foraging distance and feeding rate." - this would be logical if the adults make frequent visits to the nest with food for chicks, so could something be added about the frequency of feeding young.Snowman (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
I've given the feeding rate (every 2–5 minutes) under "Breeding", so I'd prefer not to repeat it here. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:06, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
This is difficult to read, so I have amended it and put the two related lines in the same section. Snowman (talk) 10:52, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
"Despite the general aggressiveness of the martin, ..." - if they were generally aggressive then they would not be able to live together in a colony. Presumably the aggressiveness is selective and territory based to defend their (nesting) colonies against hostile species.Snowman (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not like House Martins, where the nests are often touching, the colonies are quite loose. The text says that the nests are typically 30 m apart, so if the defended territory is 200–300 m2 as I've stated, this would suggest a distance of 14–17 m (square root of the area) around the nest. This is consistent with the spacing of the nests, so that any interaction with other pairs is likely to be only at the edge of a territory. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:04, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I could not work out if they were defending their owns nests or the entire colony - so I have made a minor amendment. The word "conspecifics" is jargon and so I have amended it to read "other Craig Martins". The zone in which they fly in is a volume (m 3), but the article used an area (m 2), so this is illogical. Snowman (talk) 11:01, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I rather assumed it meant that area of the cliff face, but the source doesn't spell that out. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
m2 is a area, which does not seem to me to be appropriate to describe a birds flying zone, which is a volume - m3. Snowman (talk) 12:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
"against other Crag Martins and other species." - What are the other species here? Does it include Common House Martins, which the article says (in a different section) are tolerated?Snowman (talk) 11:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I've amended to most other species. Basically, they will repel almost any bird coming close to the nest, although obviously genuine potential predators like hawks are treated to more prolonged attack Jimfbleak -talk to me? 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
... so I have changed it to "most other bird species" - is that what is meant? Snowman (talk) 12:45, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
"increasingly used houses and other man-made sites to nest." - What part of the house do they use to nest? For the Commons House Martin in the UK there are less nesting sites on houses, because modern houses do not have eves or gaps.Snowman (talk) 11:40, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
They nest on walls under an overhang, but not necessarily touching it unlike the House Martin which has a closed nest and uses the overhang or eaves as a roof. Unlike the House Martin, most Crag Martins still nest on cliffs, and this behaviour is only slowly changing. It is likely that the supply of bridges and older building such as forts, farmhouses and temples will provide more than enough sites for Crag Martins for the foreseeable future, particularly in the upland rural areas that form the core of their range. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 12:28, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
That sounds interesting about nest differences. Is it worth mentioning that somewhere? - perhaps in this article or in the genus page. Snowman (talk) 13:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I've discussed nest briefly under taxonomy, I'd rather leave it to the genus article
"It is constructed under an overhang or in a crevice on a cliff or man-made structure" - this does not actually say about the nest being fixed to rock - this needs to be added." I think a bit more needs to go in to describe the location of the nest. Is the overhang just for shelter from weather?Snowman (talk) 13:08, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I thought it was self-evident that a nest on a cliff face would be attached to rock, but added anyway Jimfbleak -talk to me?
Fixed now. As it was, it could have been in a rocky crevice or hole in the cliff. Snowman (talk) 11:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Does it eat aerial spiders? - like swifts. Snowman (talk) 13:21, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, added to list
How long do they live? Snowman (talk) 13:24, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I can't find anything on this, it's usually very hard to find for birds that don't breed in the UK (where the BTO usually has a figure. I'd assume three or four years like other swallows, but that's just a guess
Some of the range areas in the map look like they have been drawn with a bit of a shaky pen. I would not like to see it go out in an FT book like this. It is best to draw a map viewed at high magnification in the draw software pack. Can the irregularities be straightened out?Snowman (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
I'm no artist, but these ranges are very approximate anyway, especially outside Europe, so smoothing is really just an illusion of accuracy. If you can improve the appearance, that's fine, but maps aren't an FA criterion, so if it's an issue it can always be removed.
I have uploaded a modified version of the map with some of the irregularities painted over. What is the dark blue area in Africa opposite to Gibraltar? Snowman (talk) 10:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I'd missed that, legacy from a previous colour I expect, re-uploaded with correction, thanks for your improvements Jimfbleak -talk to me? 11:26, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
I did not know what colour to paint that small area. I see that you have painted it green. Snowman (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
"Both parents feed the chicks, bringing food every two to five minutes, and continue to feed the young for 14–21 days after fledging." - I presume that this feeding rate applies to chicks in the nest and that feeding is less and less often when the chicks are on the wing and practising catching food for themselves. I would rewrite it, but I have not got the references and I do not want to risk adding an error or oversimplification.Snowman (talk) 13:50, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
You could well be right, but the sources just say feeding continues, not how often. This bird isn't well studied, but wait till we get to the other members of the genus where the info is even more limited and it's often assumed that incubation times etc are probably similar to [Eurasian] Crag MartinJimfbleak -talk to me? 06:31, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the comma in the line, which changes the meaning to say that feeding continues but without implying that it is at the same rate as before. Snowman (talk) 11:58, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
Presumably corvids would eat eggs and chicks, but would they be able to catch an adult Crag Martin?Snowman (talk) 20:56, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Although crows and ravens will readily eggs and chicks, the nests of these martins would be difficult to raid. The source says on migration, so it would be adults that were taken. I can only speculate that the corvids target tired birds that are less well equipped to fight back. I've seen large gulls and crows attack thrushes (and owls) flying in from the sea in autumn. The owls are too well armed, but exhausted blackbirds and the like often succumb to aerial attack by these opportunist omnivores Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:00, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I have scanned a few of the other language wiki, which generally do not have many in-line references, so this comment is more about ideas than omissions or facts, all of which will need checking. Language wiki indicated by brackets: weight of the bird (fi)(it); saliva added to mud for nest building (de); time taken to build a nest (fi); female feeds young after fledging (this en article says male and female)(fi); a comment in introduction about the large size for a martin (nl); nests in caves (sv).Snowman (talk) 09:21, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Weight added, I don't know why I omitted that. Time to build nest added. Caves added, I'd assumed crevices covered that, but made explicit. Saliva in nest is probably confusion with swifts, I can find nothing suggesting that any swallow deliberately adds saliva, whereas some swiftlets use only saliva (Edible-nest swiftlet). Size is subjective, this isn't large even compared to other European hirundines, and is dwarfed by some tropical martins; I've already said the other two members of the genus are smaller. Turner says "parents" feed young after fledging and gives three sources for that. The Finnish comment is referenced to an RS source, but I don't have access. It's often the case that even where parents share duties like incubation and feeding the female does most of the work. I can't resolve this, so changed to and the young are fed without specifying whether female or both Jimfbleak -talk to me? 10:53, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that the article should confirm that the bird catches insects in its beak. It could mention some anatomical details of the beak and mouth. Snowman (talk) 21:06, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I thought that was obvious, but added anyway. I'm not optimistic about anatomy, but if I find anything I'll add it Jimfbleak -talk to me? 05:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
The key fact is now included. Snowman (talk) 08:14, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Provisional impression: I edit bird articles, and some might think my comments are a conflict of interest. I think that the article covers all the relevant facets of the topic from the reasonably accessible sources written in English. It is quite possible that other reviewers will point out a number of further improvements, and I hope that the article will achieve FA status soon. Snowman (talk) 19:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Support comprehensive and well-written, issues addressed. Ucucha 17:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC) Comments. Great overall, a few things:
"Crag Martin pairs nest alone or in small colonies, usually containing fewer than ten nests, spaced on average 30 m (100 ft) apart and each pair aggressively defend the zone around their own nest against other Crag Martins and most other bird species."—please split sentence, it is unclear whether the spacing refers to the nests or the colonies.
split and rephrased to avoid too many "nests" ...usually containing fewer than ten nests. Nests are on average 30 m (100 ft) apart and each pair aggressively defends its breeding territory against other Crag Martins..Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Are the references given in the hidden comment (FieldMusNatHistZoolSer18:343. Forktail16:147.) of any use?
I don't have access, but my extensive searches of books and other material suggest that there's very little relevant that isn't covered by Turner. Looking at my sources, there are a handful of journal articles specifically about the crag martin that expand significantly on Turner, the rest (predators, parasites) are gleaned from articles about other species, or are more general reports on, for instance, hirundine taxonomy. Thanks for reviewing. Jimfbleak -talk to me? 06:41, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Sounds good. I'll look over the Zoological Record to see whether there's anything that does seem interesting. Ucucha 11:25, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
A new species of the Ornithomya biloba-group (Dipt., Hippoboscidae) from crag martin (Ptyonoprogne rupestris) (Aves, Hirundinidae).
Source:Mitteilungen der Schweizerischen Entomologischen Gesellschaft Volume: 54 Issue:1-2 Pages:157-162 Published:1981
Many thanks for taking the time, I should really have found the Swedish record myself, but bugs are a nightmare to track down. all are incorporated now Jimfbleak -talk to me? 15:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Good, I made some corrections. If you want, there are also papers with the first records for the Netherlands, Saarland, and the Czech Republic, but I don't think those are necessary. Ucucha 17:18, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
Sweden's furthest north, so most out of range, so I think that's enough, thanks Jimfbleak -talk to me? 19:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
"The groups are the "core martins" including burrowing species like the Sand Martin, the "nest-adopters", which are birds like the Tree Swallow that utilise natural cavities, and the "mud nest builders". The Ptyonoprogne species construct an open mud nest and therefore belong to the latter group;"
"Latter" is used for the second of two items; "last" is used for the third of three items.
"Where the range overlaps with that of another Ptyonoprogne species, the Rock Martin is 15% smaller, paler and greyer than its Eurasian relative, and the Dusky Crag Martin is also small and has darker plumage, particularly on its underparts."
This part is constructed sort of oddly. The subject of the article is the Eurasian Crag Martin, but the text seems to veer off to discuss the Rock Martin, and how it is different from other species. Just seems odd from a reader's perspective.
"Both parents feed the chicks bringing food every two to five minutes"
Is this correct? It sounds as if the chicks would explode after a few hours of this treatment.
I've no reason to doubt the source, chicks have voracious appetites Jimfbleak -talk to me? 15:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"The insects taken depend on what is locally available, but may include flies, Hymenoptera, aerial spiders and beetles."
It seems strange to use the scientific name, Hymenoptera, for one order of insects, but common names for other orders. The sentence immediately following also uses common names.
I've changed to ants - although bees and wasps are also Hymenoptera, they are well armed and only hunted by specialists like bee-eatersJimfbleak -talk to me? 15:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
"Common Kestrels, Eurasian Sparrowhawks, Eurasian Jays and Common Ravens are also treated as predators and attacked by repeated dives if they approach nesting cliffs."
Presumably, this means the ECM treats these species as predators, but if it does, this implies these species do feed on the ECM. Just seems vague here.
That's how the source phrases it, and I've been unable to confirm whether these birds actually hunt crag martin. The first two are very likely to, but with the jays and ravens, it's more a case of objecting to large corvids rather than their being a serious threat Jimfbleak -talk to me? 15:40, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for reviewing, sorry about delay in responding Jimfbleak -talk to me? 16:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC)
Support. I can't find anything else to nitpick. The article's prose seems smooth, the range map checks out, the sources look good, the article is accessible to the average reader, and my concerns above have been addressed. Another well-constructed article from Jim. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:16, 25 April 2010 (UTC)