Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Holden/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 00:37, 3 December 2007.

Holden[edit]

I'm nominating this article for featured article status because after successfully passing the article through the good article process, I was recomended that I take it further. Thanks in advance. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Opposing based on things from just a cursory read

  • 1(b) - comprehensiveness. From my limited knowledge there appears to be missing information. According to - Holden Barina - the early models were rebadged Suzuki Swifts but this is not noted in the article. There is no mention of the Adventura, Rodeo or other significant models. Mostly though there is little on the company, factories and people. The article is written about cars and models. The closure of many factories and the reduction in workforce from over 30,000 to 6,000 (numbers may be wrong) is of great note and must be covered more broadly. There is nothing on the company structure, any published financial information and little that I would expect to see in an article about a corporation.
  • 1(d) - NPOV. The section titles need some thought.
  • 2(a) - the Lead does not adequately summarise the article per WP:LEAD

- Peripitus (Talk) 11:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have resolved part of "1(b)" and there is now more information on key models. As for the company structure, it does not belong in the Holden article because Holden is not a company, it is a subsidiary of General Motors. When you buy a Holden you are not buying a Holden, but rather a General Motors badged as a Holden. OSX (talk • contributions) 22:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree strongly on this. Holden is a separate company owned by General Motors. They have a structure, management, financial results, impact etc.. that are separate to GM (although financially the accounts are combined in the US). The article is about a company called GM Holden Ltd yet contains little on the company. BAE Systems is a good example of a corporate article that does talk about what they make/made. If the article on Holden , as you say, does not require information as below then where does it belong ? I expect an article on a company to tell me about the company thenthe things they make, if required in a separate article. This article mentions nothing from the public record on significant things for Holden like:

  • Market share - mentioned as 15.4% in 2006 (down from 17.8% in 2005) from the GM company reports
  • The opening of the new V6 engine plant at Fishermen's Bend
  • That they were the first company in Australia (1992) to introduce ABS brakes
  • What their sales of vehicles (and $) have been over time ($301M USD in 2006 I think)
  • Done I have reported their revenue/losses for 2002-2006 instead. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The significance of the company to the South Australian and Victorian economies
  • Government subsidies received (particularly in relation to the closure of factories and the 3rd shift (last few years))
  • Their public attitude to the removal of Import Tarrifs
  • That in 1966 they were claim to be the first Australian company to introduce seat belts as a standard.
  • Holden was a Sydney 2000 Olympics partner (don't know what they did though)
  • What did they do during WWII ? (Try War record, September 1939-August 1945 (GMH 1946))
  • Union/wage disputes (many of these to chose from)
  • Done Unions mentioned with the proposal to decrease tariffs on imported cars OSX (talk • contributions) 05:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article tells you little about Holden but is more the History of Holden Models ?- Peripitus (Talk) 02:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps this is spreading into Peer Review territory but there are books on the subject that would shed a lot of light that I cannot see used as a reference. Holden: The First 25 Years(1973 by General Motors-Holden), perhaps The FJ Holden: A Favourite Australian Car( 2004 by Don Loffler), The Golden Holden: The Story of General Motors in Australia( 1965 by George Zangalis and John Arrowsmith), Holden: Everybody's Car (2000 by Wayne Stevenson), Holden in Australia 1948-1991 : the exciting story of Australia's most popular car : Holdens on the road and at the track (1990), General Motors-Holden's and the Australian automobile industry in economic perspective. (1972 by Swan, Peter L.) and perhaps The Holden heritage (1990 GMH) - Peripitus (Talk) 03:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With the books, I have cited Still Holden Together: Stories of the First Holden Model, The FJ Holden: A Favorite Australian Car, AutoBiography and The Holden Heritage, which in now available as a free PDF from the GM website. OSX (talk • contributions) 01:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also I would like to add Aussie Cars, Automobile Year 2006/7 and Information, Opportunism and Economic Coordination. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Not comprehensive. Talks too much about history. Not enough information about products the company makes, corporate culture, any controversy the company got in and other things. --Kaypoh (talk) 07:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done But I cannot think of any major controversy the company has got into in the last few years except the job losses, however this has been discussed under the "2000s" section. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Interesting but can be improved Who thought of the titles after each decade? I think these can be improved. The timeline also needs to be re-evaluated to make sure that the timeline reflects a theme or idea and not just a list of events in sentence form. Will a chart with the models of cars be a good addition. Dodge has one. Adding current models would help, too. Don't they make engines for other GM cars? My opinion is to either put the FAC on hold for 2-3 weeks while reconstruction is done or hold open this FAC while improvement is made. Good luck! Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 22:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done I've removed the titles after each decade, but I do not think the timeline needs to be reevaluated. The history goes in chronological order, except when two or more lots of information are related. A chart of models is pointless, as we already have a list of Holden vehicles which is now linked in the "See also" section. As for engine exports, Holden produce GM Family II and GM High Feature engines for other GM cars, and this has now been discussed. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. 1a. Here are examples from the top that indicate the need for thorough revision throughout, preferably by a fresh eyes.
    • Opening sentence: instead of "now", say "since 19??". We want to know.
    • "Holden cars are manufactured at Elizabeth, South Australia, while engines are produced at Port Melbourne, Victoria."—Category problem: engines are part of cars.
    • The consolidation. No telegram language.
    • "While Holden has had a fluctuating involvement in exports since the 1950s, the declining sales of large cars in Australia has led the brand to look to export markets to increase profitability, with exports accounting for over AU$1.2 billion in earnings for 2003 alone." Very clumsy opening clause: "While H's inv. in exports has fluctuated since the ..." Have, not has. The "brand" doesn't look for markets; the company does. Have you no more recent data than four or five years back?
    • MOS: don't use bolding except at the start.
    • Do we really need to link "United States"? Check overlinking, esp. repeated links and other commonly known nations.
    • Use "AU" the first time, then drop it unless there's possible confustion with other currencies. (I don't see it.)

Lots more. Tony (talk) 15:08, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done The above examples have been fixed, but I have already had the article copyedited by the League of Copyeditors, so I don't know what else to do here. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:57, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is a thorny question that really can't be answered here. Apart from my issues with the thrust of the article there are significant issues in the text still to be addressed. From the article history it took some effort to get it over the GA line and, except for a very few writers, there is a lot of work after this to become Wikipedia's best work. Some cherry-picked prose examples from another read

  • After the completion of Holden's first full-scale factory in 1936, World War II intervened,.... Surely the war started in 1939 and the rest of the sentence gives a possibly false impression about why the Government actively intervened in industry after the war.
    • After reading the reference I think the pair of sentences should be Holden's first full-scale factory was completed in 1936 but World War II delayed car production until April 1948.. The reference seems to support just this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peripitus (talk • contribs) 09:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • to accept the challenge to build "Australia's Own Car". Was this challenge external or internal to Holden. THe next few sentences show it's an internal marketing slogan and so this sentence reads as out of a brochure
  • This decade saw Holden's transformation continue. (in the 1990s section). Not a good way of saying "The company changed"
  • Holden's total market share in Australia was 21.0% in 1991. By the end of the decade, Holden's dominance had risen to 28.2%,. Perhaps "Holden's total Australian market share was 21.0% in 1991 and 28.2% by the end of the decade". Dominance does not add to the sentence
  • During the 1990s, pressure was put on the Australian Government by not only Holden, but other Australian automakers as well as trade unionists regarding the lowering of tariffs put on imported cars. Perhaps *"During the 1990s Holden, other Australian automakers and trade unionists applied pressure on the Australian Government to halt the lowering of car import tarrifs"

- Peripitus (Talk) 06:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done I would love you to "cherry-pick" me some more examples. Cheers OSX (talk • contributions) 08:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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