The Detroit Red Wings are back at it again with another Featured List nomination. Will they ever give up? Still going strong since 1926 so apparently not. Up for our attention this time is the team's general managers, all the men who have built the club into what it was, what it wasn't, and what it is today. The list has undergone the peer review process and came out clean. I am curious to know what the community has to say and I am looking forward to reading your input and acting on your recommendation. Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 23:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure that the alt-text for the images needs to be quite so detailed. Is it necessary for such detail (is it really important that in the image of Ken Holland he has a slight smile on his face?)? I'm not sure whether it needs to be so detailed to meet WP:ACCESS
I know what you're saying, but I don't see the value in removing detail to make them meet a bare minimum standard. Rejectwater (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, there is definitely a line somewhere, at which point alt text becomes too detailed. I'm not sure this has crossed it. Was more a comment then complaint. -- Shuddetalk 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
I have never read an alt text I found too detailed. The point is to describe the image to someone who can't see it; the more detail the better in my book. A picture is worth a thousand words after all. Rejectwater (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
After reading WP:ALT again, you are completely correct. The alt texts have been updated. Rejectwater (talk) 09:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
Although Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Gender-neutral_language doesn't make it 100% clear, I see no reason why "Eleven men have served as general manager (GM) in franchise history" should not read "Eleven people have served as general manager (GM) in franchise history" -- is their gender important, are we implying it is by saying "men" rather than "people"?
I don't think it matters. They have so far all been men, which makes it a one-gender context. Rejectwater (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Yeah I'm not so sure. Reading it again, I still feel it's implying that their gender is important (it's not), even though I'm sure it isn't meant to do so! - Shuddetalk 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
That's a good point. I will change it to something like "There have been eleven..." Rejectwater (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
I know that this may not be necessary, but I'm wondering if a note could/should be added giving a bit of detail into what the exact role of a general manager is within the team? General manager isn't bad, but my main question is what responsibilities the head coach has, and what the general manager has. This is especially relevant because the roles were held by the same person for twenty years.
It's a question of whether the list is about the managers themselves, or the role itself. Of course it is likely a combination of both rather than one or the other. Wondering if a sentence or two describing the role (in the context of this team, not a general description of a general manager) would be good. The fact that at least a couple of the GM's were simultaneously coach is quite interesting, but not sure how best to tackle that. -- Shuddetalk 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Yes, a quick explanation of what the GM does will be added. Rejectwater (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Maybe reference the trader Jack sentence more explicitly, and add  immediately after the semi-colon.
The references had been more explicit until recently when they were moved due a comment in peer review which stated that it looks nicer to have them at the end of the sentences. Six of one half a dozen of the other? Rejectwater (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
"Under first Abel and then " -- Because you mentioned Abel was also coach in the preceding sentence, it's not 100% clear where you're saying "under first [head coach] Abel", or "under first [general manager] Abel" -- You might want to clarify this
Wondering if more could be said about Art Duncan. Especially considering he was part of the teams founding, and was a player, coach and manager.
I have wondered the same thing. There is an odd vacuum of information concerning Duncan's tenure with the team, which I imagine is due to being in Adams' shadow. One would think the man who was the first team captain, head coach, and general manager (all at the same time no less) would be a legend, but he's not. His bio on the Red Wings website doesn't even have a picture. He's just the guy who is first on each list. Rejectwater (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Thinking about this more it makes sense. He was only in Detroit one year and they didn't accomplish anything to note in that time. His claim to fame in Red Wings history was being first on those lists and that is it. Rejectwater (talk) 00:37, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
The fact that he was founding GM, coach, player and captain, and yet had no significant influence on the side is itself quite notable! Maybe that could be added. The only other question I'd ask is how he got all those responsibilities -- who appointed him? Even if not much is known about him, if a RS says so "that not much is known about his tenure", then there is nothing wrong with saying so in the lead itself. -- Shuddetalk 06:39, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
It was typical of the time for someone to serve in multiple capacities concurrently; see General manager, for example, which states "For many years in U.S. professional sports, coaches often served as general managers for their teams as well, deciding which players would be kept on the team and which ones dismissed, and even negotiating the terms of their contracts in cooperation with the ownership of the team." Serving as coach and general manager at the same time is still done today in various sports leagues (Bill Belichick for example) and has been done many times by the Red Wings. As recently as 1990 owner Mike Ilitch was quoted as saying "I feel it's absolutely necessary to consolidate the position of GM and head coach." Jimmy Skinner was the first Wings GM to not also be head coach for at least some portion of his tenure, although he had been head coach in the mid 1950's. The only guys in Detroit who have acted as general manager while also never coaching are Jim Devellano and Ken Holland. Rejectwater (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I'm not really talking about the fact that he was both coach and GM at the same time - I don't think that's worth commenting on, rather I'm inquiring about his lack of influence considering he held four notable positions simultaneously: coach, player, captain and GM! Is there a reason he was only with the team one year? -- Shuddetalk 03:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
I imagine Adams was seen as an upgrade at coach and gm; hindsight proves it so. Adams traded Duncan away before the ink was dry on Adams' contract, probably as a house cleaning move. New leadership wanted to put it's stamp on the organization. This is almost all conjecture. I'm not aware of any source that goes into any kind of detail about the behind the scenes "what were they thinking" aspect of these moves. Rejectwater (talk) 09:19, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Also, the team captain is always a player, so it was redundant to list both; I've updated that sentence. Rejectwater (talk) 09:07, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Ok. Shame it's all conjecture because would be good to have a little more on him (and why he was there so briefly). Anyway happy to support. All my comments have been addressed. - Shuddetalk 10:48, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for the excellent input and for your support. Rejectwater (talk) 23:28, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
"Minor suggestion; rather than "Ken Holland is Detroit's current general manager." (I hate the term currently) say "Ken Holland has been Detroit's general manager since 1997."
That's everything. All rather minor (other than the Art Duncan thing). -- Shuddetalk 06:05, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your input. Usually I would just hammer out your suggestions but a few of these seem to be more toss up type comments(?). I look forward to hearing anything you have to say on those or any other issue you see with the page. Regards, Rejectwater (talk) 09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
Yeah I apologise if my comments read like thoughts rather than "fix this please". I'm quite open to my comments not being valid or being a bit pedantic, but I'd rather say something if I'm going to spend the time on a review. Usually I just add comments as I read the article, and don't necessarily consider them important/critical. -- Shuddetalk
I appreciate the comments. There's no reason to apologize. I just wanted to make sure my comments were appropriate and that your concerns were being addressed. Rejectwater (talk) 09:58, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
Comment – Reference 2 needs a publisher (National Hockey League).Giants2008 (Talk) 16:18, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Support. The lede is of appropriate size, per WP:LEAD, and also provides good background info for the reader. The list is formatted well and meticulously referenced throughout. I like the Key, it's quite helpful. Nice use of portal selection. Great job overall, deserves the star. Good luck, — Cirt (talk) 18:56, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind words and support. Warm regards, Rejectwater (talk) 23:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Support. Well referenced/cited, especially for what is an actually short list. Good luck with it. Anthony(talk) 16:15, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your kind words and support. Warm regards, Rejectwater (talk) 23:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
oversees all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movements - lack of a comma between "operations" and "including" in the original?
Finals - that this is the Stanley Cup Finals is not clear as you haven't used the word yet.
Under first Devellano and Bowman and then Holland - too many ands — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:43, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Lack of comma - yes, that is a cut and paste from the source.
Switched the "first" and the "under" as suggested, however the "as GM" was added due to a comment in peer review that it was necessary to specify the position as head coach was mentioned in the previous sentence.
Finals - changed "Cup final" to "Stanley Cup Finals" in previous paragraph.
Too many ands - fixed.
Thank you for the input and for taking the time to look it over. Kind regards, Rejectwater (talk) 23:49, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.