Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Giro d'Italia general classification winners/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by Giants2008 19:14, 10 May 2011 [1].

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List of Giro d'Italia general classification winners

List of Giro d'Italia general classification winners (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of Giro d'Italia general classification winners/archive1
• Featured list candidates/List of Giro d'Italia general classification winners/archive2

Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 18:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured list because, although it's been a while since I brought a list here I think that this one is ready to become featured and hopefully meets all of the criteria. Thanks in advance for your comments. NapHit (talk) 18:32, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Cheetah (talk)

Comments Is the Netherlands a neighbor of Italy? Really? he was 20 years, 158 days old when won... - he was 20 years, 158 days old when he won... was 34 years old, 180 days, when... - Is the comma before "when" necessary? the "Stage wins" column should be explained in the key. h, ' and " should be explained in the key, as well. I think these are pretty much self-explanatory, and don't really need to be put into the key, especially when the column highlights what they mean. NapHit (talk) 20:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC) In the references, "in french" should be "in French" --Cheetah (talk) 04:05, 4 April 2011 (UTC) Apart from the one issue I have fixed done everything else, thanks for the comments. NapHit (talk) 20:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support It looks good to me.--Cheetah (talk) 02:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments Just an initial response to the above, "stage wins" is fine for me. I'm not sure how close to OR reporting bare statistical facts goes, although I do understand because it's sortable, it could give some kind of "impression" of significance that isn't warranted. However, as long as it's clear that most stage wins doesn't equal overall winner, not a major trauma. There is a bit in the lead which states what the stages represent and the key eplicitly says the column represents the number of stages the cyclist won, so I don't think there's a problem. NapHit (talk) 20:46, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Coppi's caption doesn't need a full stop. "wears the pink jersey." a minor semantic point for me but this could just as well be "wears a pink jersey" since "pink jersey" isn't a proper noun or linked or anything. This applies et seq. "each cyclist having won the competition five times" - don't think you need to reiterate they're cyclists, why not just "each of them having won.."? "the most Giro's" don't think that should be hyphenated (et seq.) "are third with 6 wins." ->six. When, in the "calendar" is this held? First sentence in the lead states this. NapHit (talk) 20:46, 7 April 2011 (UTC) "The first race was won by Luigi Ganna, " make it "The first Giro.." because in between time you've mentioned the Tour de France. "20 year old team " hyphenate -> 20-year-old team-mate... " five time Tour de" - five-time. "1960,[13] and 1964, " why is 1960 ref'ed and not 1964? "His first victory came in 1968, another triumph in 1970 " not sure the comma is the right thing here, maybe a semi-colon or replace with "while". "the following year" you link only "year", I'd link "following year" as a whole. "Giro in 2000 after he won the penultimate stage to take" no, he won it by the standard rules. Winning the penultimate stage wasn't the sole reason he won the Giro. Years which weren't contested, can you not put colspan's in with "Not contested" or something? Shouldn't mess up the sorting... Salvodelli -> Savoldelli (according to our article). Ref 2 needs an en-dash. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Thanks for the comments they have been addressed. NapHit (talk) 20:46, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments from EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 18:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

*Oppose For lack of verifiability of the team column. Will change to support once acceptable source for the teams is found. (The current source only shows that the riders rode for the displayed team at a certain point during the year, not that they rode for the team during the Giro.) See discussion below. It might be nice to inform the reviewers that List of Tour de France general classification winners, a similar article, is a Featured List already, nominated by the same nominator, and that this article apparently tries to be consistent with it. This may explain why certain stylistic choices were made, although I am perfectly aware that this does not make them immune for discussion. I have corrected some mistakes in the prose. You might want to check that text for style/grammar; my English is decent but it is hard to explain the jersey thing... That seems to run better now. There is little point in me going over the text as I am familiar with it, so its harder to spot mistakes, that is best left to the reviewers. NapHit (talk) 22:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC) I am not talking about the text that you wrote, but the text that I wrote. You might catch my mistakes. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC) The table is lacking sources. The general references only show the winner, but not the margin, total distance, winning time/points, sponsor/team and won stages. You can use this source as a source for distance, winning time and margin, but not for sponsor/team nor for won stages. The Tour de France winner list had a table with several mistakes, so I suspect this will also need correction, and sources are needed for this. Include that reference thanks for that, much better than the previous one. Yes that is a problem that there is not a reference for the other columns, it's a shame that there is a not a wider general reference as there is for the tour and vuelta. NapHit (talk) 22:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC) It is a big problem that there is no reference for these columns, in my opinion a problem that would prevent this list from becoming featured. Where did you get this information? Just give your sources, that might be enough. Currently, then the main information of this list is unsourced, and I think this list should not be featured as long as it remains unsourced. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC) The "Stage wins" column can safely be removed, in my opinion. I have never seen it in other overviews (except from List of Tour de France general classification winners, and even there it was explicitly questioned in the FL-review, and no reason was ever given for inclusion). I think this serves a useful purpose as it illustrates how dominant the winner was during the Giro, it will interest some readers to know that riders have won these events without winning a single stage, on this basis I think the column should remain. NapHit (talk) 22:08, 6 April 2011 (UTC) It does not really show how dominant the winner was, as it does not show how many stages there were in total. No other source that lists the giro winners shows the number of stages they won that year, so I am afraid this gets close to original research. To summarize: my first point, about the jerseys, is probably no problem. The third point, about the 'stage wins' column, is something we disagree on, but I'll ignore that for now, and hope some other reviewer will give their opinion on it. The second point, no sources, is a major problem, and until that is solved, I will oppose. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 17:59, 7 April 2011 (UTC) 1924 winner has no team or sponsor. Needs a note/en-dash etc. In fact, the 1919 to 1924 editions were not contested in teams, because the economic situation after world war I stopped companies from sponsoring the cyclists. The sponsors in the 1919 to 1923 editions mentioned here may have been the personal sponsors of these cyclists in the rest of the year, but not during the Giro. This is a good example why this table needs sources... --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 19:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Well. if this is so I'm going to need a source otherwise the sponsors will have to remain, I understand your concerns about the the table but the problem is that sources that cover the statisitical side of the Giro are thin on the ground, so I can make the most of what I have got. NapHit (talk) 20:46, 7 April 2011 (UTC) I hate to throw wikipedia rules around, but in this case WP:BURDEN is very clear: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material". Still, I tried to back up my claim with the source I used, but I found that I probably clicked wrong and found results for the Tour de France, not for the Giro d'Italia. On the other hand, I also could not verify the information that is currently in the article. Where can I check that, in the 1923 Giro, Girardengo was part of the Maino team? Where did you get this information from? If you can not give sources for this information, it should not be part of a featured list.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 21:19, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Well you were right to query my sources as according to this source Giradengo rode for a different team in 1923. What I'm going to do is use that website as the source for all the teams, which hopefully should resolve that issue. NapHit (talk) 22:34, 7 April 2011 (UTC) The teams are all correct now and the source is included in the general refs, this also covers the stage wins, although you'll have to navigate there. I could include the two separate pages for the cycling archives references instead of the one general reference if this is preferred. Anyway hopefully that clears any issue with the legitimacy of the information in the table. NapHit (talk) 23:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC) Unfortunately, it does not. The source that you give shows that Girardengo rode for the Gurtner-Hutchinson team and for the Maino team in 1923. It does not say for which team Girardengo rode the Giro, it does not show that that the Giro was contested in teams, and if it were contested in teams, it does not show if it was contested by national teams or sponsor teams. I am not making up unlikely alternatives; the Tour de France (the Giro's older brother) has varied from individual participation to national team participation to sponsored team participation. I have tried to find a source that shows which format Giro used, but sofar could not find one.--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 16:39, 8 April 2011 (UTC) For this case either team article does not show that they won the Giro, so it could be that he rode individually, but I think this information will not be ascertained without coming from official channels. However, that source is fine for the majority of the other teams, so I think it will have to do as the main source for the teams. There will not be better source than that unless the Giro released a historical guide along the lines of what the Tour did. NapHit (talk) 18:18, 8 April 2011 (UTC) There are many other possibles sources: Books written on the Giro, newspaper overviews on Giro winner history, old newspaper reports on the Giro, a biography of the Giro winner, and cycling result databases. The source that you use does not show which team the cyclists rode for during the Giro, as the Tour example shows. If this list is to become featured, it should be 100% correct, and 100% verifiable. Currently, there is good reason to doubt some of the teams before WWII, and the information is not verifiable. It looks like you are saying "there is no good source, so a bad source will have to do", and although I understand this logic, a Featured List should follow higher standards. --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 20:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for non-verifiable info in the table (specifically: teams before 1940)--EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 18:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Strange Passerby (talk • cont)

*Original comments 12:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC) "Italian cyclists have won the most Giro's, 39 cyclists have won 65 Giro's between them." Grammar. Giro's what? If it isn't a possessive or contraction, there shouldn't be an apostrophe there. This happens quite a bit in the article. "The first Giro was won by Luigi Ganna, Carlo Galetti won the two following Giro's." Per first point. I'd personally add the word "while" between the two names to make the sentence flow a bit better. "From 1914 onwards the scoring format was changed from a points-based system to a time-based system, in which the cyclist who had the lowest aggregate time at the end of the race would win." A ref for this would be nice, although this may be a bit picky. "The dominant figure in the 1920s was Alfredo Binda, he won his first Giro in 1925 and followed this up with another victory in 1927, in which he won 12 of the 15 stages." Shouldn't the first comma be a semicolon? Alternatively, "he won" could read "who won". In the table, kilometres is spelled out but miles isn't. Is there a reason for this? Shouldn't it be standardised to km (mi) or kilometres (miles)? Addressed all your comments, I can't find a reliable source for the switch to time based system, but I'll keep searching and I might find one eventually. NapHit (talk) 15:13, 10 April 2011 (UTC) I found a source ([2]) from RAI, the (leading?) Italian broadcaster, that gives general information about the winners of the Giro, I guess similarly to what this article does. Unfortunately my Italian is not good enough, but it may include something on the time based system, or something else... --EdgeNavidad (Talk · Contribs) 18:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC) Used googel translate and there was nothing regarding the witching of the scoring method unfortunately. NapHit (talk) 15:29, 11 April 2011 (UTC) Three more instances of "Giro's" left in the article. Once changed I'll support. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 22:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC) Got them, Cheers. NapHit (talk) 22:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Strange Passerby (talk • cont) 23:08, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments – Comma after "Italian cyclists have won the most Giros" should probably be a semi-colon. Remove comma after "of the Liquigas-Doimo team". History: Semi-colon after Alfredo Binda should be a comma. The opposite is true for the comma after "called to the head office of La Gazzetta dello Sport in 1930". Is it "Giro's" or "Giros"? I see both in the article. De-capitalize Team and Points in the table. Are the last two general references reliable sources? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC) Unfortunately those two sources are the only ones that cover most of the table, I believe that they are reliable, the cycling archives website is very extensive and updated regularly. The bikeraceinfo one is edited by two people who have had books published on the subject, so I believe the source would be reliable. Thanks for the comments I have addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 22:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.