Wikipedia:Peer review/Stephen Tomašević of Bosnia/archive1
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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because of the request of GA nominator.
Thanks, Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:41, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Peer review
[edit]Based on agreement with GA nominator of this article (reached here) I intend to conduct a peer review here. I am not very much familiar with the subject because the subject of my interest and work on wikipedia is Ottoman Empire and its history on the Balkans. Therefore comments are very much welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
✗ 'Not done'Title: The reviewer believes that the title SToB styled for himself should be presented in the lede and/or infobox. Nominator disagrees.
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✗ Not doneAddition of the map of the region would significantly increase informativeness of the text. Nominator agrees.
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✗ Not doneReviewer presented sources which present 1438 as year of SToB's year of birth and proposed addition of this information because it corresponds with real events, but with attribution considering non-exceptional sources. Nominator is sceptical.
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✗ Not doneThe text of the article should be expanded with details about SToB's early life. Nominator agrees and emphasize that re SToB's early life sources only describe his education.
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✗ Not doneReviewer proposed expansion of the lede to clarify and present summarized background of political context in mid 15th century Kingdom Bosnia with all threats to its existence, without oversimplification regarding Ottoman Empire.
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✗ 'Not done'Konstantinovic - It is necessary to clarify who is Konstantinovic.
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✗ 'Not done'Lack of strong resistance to the Ottomans - Its background (higher taxes and religious persecution) should be presented in the lede.
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- Single source for large portion of text. The large portion of text (1,135 characters) in the first paragraph of Family section are supported only by one source. Work of Franciscan friar Dominik Mandic, which is at least not of the first grade reliability. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Religion in the infobox - The infobox presents his religion as Catholic although the text of the article clarifies that he was raised as a member of the Bosnian Church, converted to Roman Catholicism. If that is so, Bosnian Church should be presented as well.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- The article states that his father was raised as a member of the Bosnian Church. Stephen Tomašević was raised as a Roman Catholic from early childhood. Surtsicna (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- The text of the article does not directly support early childhood thesis. Both his mother and his father Stephan Tomas belonged to Bosnian church. Tomas converted to Catholicism only in 1445. Per my comment below, Tomasevic was first baptised then learned Lattin letters (which was not in early childhood) and then decided to embrace Catholic faith (I doubt it could happen in early childhood). Though, I admit that I haven't seen sources which directly support his membership to Bosnian church.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- But we have no idea when Stephen Tomašević was born. He may have been born in 1442, for all we know. Besides, the article reports what the sources say.[1] Surtsicna (talk) 00:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Not completely true. SToB was certainly born before 1445 when his parents were divorced.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:20, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- But we have no idea when Stephen Tomašević was born. He may have been born in 1442, for all we know. Besides, the article reports what the sources say.[1] Surtsicna (talk) 00:02, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- The text of the article does not directly support early childhood thesis. Both his mother and his father Stephan Tomas belonged to Bosnian church. Tomas converted to Catholicism only in 1445. Per my comment below, Tomasevic was first baptised then learned Lattin letters (which was not in early childhood) and then decided to embrace Catholic faith (I doubt it could happen in early childhood). Though, I admit that I haven't seen sources which directly support his membership to Bosnian church.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:34, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- The article states that his father was raised as a member of the Bosnian Church. Stephen Tomašević was raised as a Roman Catholic from early childhood. Surtsicna (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Source interpretation - I am uncertain if source is properly interpreted in below example:
- The source says: "The new king claimed that as a boy he had been baptized, learned Latin letters and firmly grasped the Christian (i.e. Catholic) faith. "
- The article says: "Stephen Thomas, raised as a member of the Bosnian Church, converted to Roman Catholicism in c. 1445; Stephen Tomašević later stated that he had been baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a child, and that he had been taught Latin letters." - If I am not wrong, this sentence could mislead readers to believe that he later denied he was raised as member of the Bosnian Church. AFAICS The source does not mention "later", stated ≠ claimed, and Catholicism is mentioned with faith, not with baptism.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
- Could it be that you are confusing the father (Stephen Thomas) and son (Stephen Tomašević)? It was the father who converted in 1445, and thereafter had his son raised as a Roman Catholic. Surtsicna (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- No. Stephen was born to Vojača and Stephen Tomas, both members of Bosnian Church. Stephen Tomasevic was born well before 1445 (when his father decided to convert to Catholicism). That is why it is important not to misinterpret sources to mislead readers that Stephen Tomasevic was baptised as Catholic. The source present differnt chronology which correspond to real events. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- He was most certainly not baptized as a "krstjanin". The Bosnian Church did not baptize minors, and the sacrament itself differed substantially from that administered by the Roman Catholic (or any Orthodox) Church. For one thing, it was performed with a holy book rather than water. Since Stephen Tomašević wrote this in a letter sent to the pope in an attempt to prove his loyalty to the Holy See, and since the baptism clearly took place in his childhood rather than in his adulthood, it seems clear that he meant Catholic baptism. Surtsicna (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- I think your reply again prove my point. You say: "Stephen Tomašević wrote this in a letter sent to the pope in an attempt to prove his loyalty to the Holy See" Does it mean everything he wrote in that letter was true. Of course not. That is why source uses the word "claimed" instead of "stated" you used. You misinterpreted the source and presented it as fact. The source does not mention "later", stated ≠ claimed and Catholicism is mentioned after baptism and learning Latin.
- I know nothing about Bosnian church and its baptism procedure. Can you present some sources for your statement that Bosnian Church did not baptize minors?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:15, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- To be honest, I have no idea how I am proving your point because I am not certain what your point is or how I am misinterpreting the source. The article does not say that Stephen Tomašević was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a child. It says that he "stated that he had been baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a child". He did state that, and the source says so. The verb "claim", used by Fine, means "to state to be true".[2] For all intents and purposes, the words are synonymous.
- Here are some Google Book Search results concerning the Bosnian Church view on baptism. "They [krstjani lived an ascetic life, baptized only adults, and so forth.]" Surtsicna (talk) 00:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Please read WP:CLAIM.
- Thanks for the link you presented. It says: "Different historical sources show diametrically opposed images of Bosnian Church doctrine". I will try to research this issue, but the link you presented shows that your interpretation about baptising only adults is not necessary correct.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- WP:CLAIM: "Said, stated, described, wrote, and according to are almost always neutral and accurate." So, you are saying that the wording I used is perfect. Thank you.
- It is not up to me to interpret anything. As a Wikipedia editor, I report what secondary sources say, i.e. their interpretations of primary sources. Secondary sources say that the Bosnian Church rejected the baptism of the children and the baptism with water. Surtsicna (talk) 01:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- No. Another misinterpretation of my position and source which does not use neutral wording. On the contrary. It explains background to the letter of SToB to pope and use word "claim".
- Those who dig a pit will fall in it. Every time you try to misinterpret my position you successfully refute your position. If members of Bosnian Church indeed rejected baptism of the children, like you insist, SToB was certainly not baptised to Catholicism as child because his parents were members of Bosnian Church when he was a child. OR interpretations are not constructive. It is necessary to stick to reliable sources, which do not support "baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as a child".--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:42, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- He was most certainly not baptized as a "krstjanin". The Bosnian Church did not baptize minors, and the sacrament itself differed substantially from that administered by the Roman Catholic (or any Orthodox) Church. For one thing, it was performed with a holy book rather than water. Since Stephen Tomašević wrote this in a letter sent to the pope in an attempt to prove his loyalty to the Holy See, and since the baptism clearly took place in his childhood rather than in his adulthood, it seems clear that he meant Catholic baptism. Surtsicna (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- No. Stephen was born to Vojača and Stephen Tomas, both members of Bosnian Church. Stephen Tomasevic was born well before 1445 (when his father decided to convert to Catholicism). That is why it is important not to misinterpret sources to mislead readers that Stephen Tomasevic was baptised as Catholic. The source present differnt chronology which correspond to real events. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Could it be that you are confusing the father (Stephen Thomas) and son (Stephen Tomašević)? It was the father who converted in 1445, and thereafter had his son raised as a Roman Catholic. Surtsicna (talk) 18:51, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Date of death - The date of death is not cited. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- There are two references in the paragraph about his death. One of them gives the precise date. Surtsicna (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Will you please point to the reference that gives the precise date?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. Ljubez, page 157. Surtsicna (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- No reference mentions page 157.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. Ljubez, page 157. Surtsicna (talk) 01:44, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Will you please point to the reference that gives the precise date?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- There are two references in the paragraph about his death. One of them gives the precise date. Surtsicna (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
- Place of burrial - The text of the article mentions circumstantial evidence about the place of burial of SToB. The only source used there is Babinger (p 222) does not support that "circumstantial evidence". On the contrary. He emphasize that "it is by no means certain" that bones shown in Franciscan monastery are bones of SToB. If that is so, the infobox should be corrected accordingly.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
- Different versions of his death - Many sources present different versions of his death (sultan strangled him personally, that his skin was ripped, that archers shot him with arrows when he was tied..... --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:56, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
- Ottomans captured his half-sister Katarina and half-brother Sigismund - Many sources say that Ottomans captured his half-sister Katarina and half-brother Sigismund after they killed him.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)