Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2017 March 7
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March 7
[edit]BBC oddity
[edit]This BBC.com article[1] includes the statement "a rump of about 30 hardliners" opposing the proposed new Obamacare replacement. That's a funny one. Is it a commonly used expression in British politics? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:02, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- What's funny? Are you referring to the word "rump"? It seems to be a normal use of one of the definitions of "rump". Mirriam-Webster has "a small or inferior remnant or offshoot; especially : a group (such as a parliament) carrying on in the name of the original body after the departure or expulsion of a large number of its members". [2] MacMillan has "a small part of a company, a group of people, or a country that remains when the rest of it has left or has been removed" [3] Did the dictionary that you consulted not have such a definition? CodeTalker (talk) 19:23, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- It did, but I've never heard it used that way in American English, where it would sound insulting. So I wondered if that usage in British English is also considered insulting, with the writer making an editorial comment about that small group; or if it's merely a neutral expression to Brits. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:27, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- See Rump Parliament; the expression comes from British history. --Xuxl (talk) 19:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- I see. Still hard to tell if the writer's usage was innocent or editorial. Thanks for the explanation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, it's not hard to tell. If it were derogatory, the dictionaries would mention that. They don't. It isn't. HenryFlower 20:13, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- The average American politician wouldn't appreciate being compared to an arse. It must be strictly a British thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:42, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- The OED defines one sense of rump as "A small, unimportant, or contemptible remnant or remainder of a (official) body of people, esp. a parliament." from 1649: "This fagge end, this Rump of a Parliament with corrupt Maggots in it." which sounds just a little derogatory. Dbfirs 21:01, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- The average American politician wouldn't appreciate being compared to an arse. It must be strictly a British thing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:42, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- No, it's not hard to tell. If it were derogatory, the dictionaries would mention that. They don't. It isn't. HenryFlower 20:13, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- I see. Still hard to tell if the writer's usage was innocent or editorial. Thanks for the explanation. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- See Rump Parliament; the expression comes from British history. --Xuxl (talk) 19:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- It did, but I've never heard it used that way in American English, where it would sound insulting. So I wondered if that usage in British English is also considered insulting, with the writer making an editorial comment about that small group; or if it's merely a neutral expression to Brits. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:27, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Resolved
post-resolved ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:13, 9 March 2017 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
We actually have articles Rump organization, Rump party, Rump legislature, Rump state, List of rump states etc. As a political science term, I strongly doubt that it's confined to the UK... AnonMoos (talk) 21:09, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
Looking at that link again, they have replaced "rump" with "group", which would be normal American usage and totally neutral. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
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- Some of us should well remember the news stories of the 1990s after the breakup of Yugoslavia, where the term 'rump Yugoslavia was used so frequently. —Stephen (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- I also found Trump's Rump Party, but I take the OP's point as the blogger has to include a link to the "rump party" Wikipedia page for the benefit of US readers. See also Not One-Off Britishisms - U.K. expressions that have got popular in the U.S. which quotes Joshua Keating (an American journalist and blogger): “…the president’s efforts to govern domestically have been stymied in the legislature by an extremist rump faction of the main opposition party”, along with several other citations of its use by US politicians and journalists. Alansplodge (talk) 09:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- Some of us should well remember the news stories of the 1990s after the breakup of Yugoslavia, where the term 'rump Yugoslavia was used so frequently. —Stephen (talk) 23:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just to add that there is some recent usage of "rump" in US political blogs - de-collapse the discussion above to see my link. Alansplodge (talk) 14:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Adjusted. Note that there seems to be a need to explain the term, since it's not widespread in the US. And note how it's used in a demeaning way, toward the right-wing faction. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:21, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Quite so. I don't think anybody would refer to themselves as being part of a rump, except in self-deprecation (a British speciality). The Tea Party movement seems to be the main target of American usage, but it seems to be understood by US journalists and political bloggers, if not by the wider population. Watch this space... Alansplodge (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Precisely. I don't read blogs nor many political commentators, and I've never heard or read it in the mainstream news. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:38, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- We shall finish on that note of happy agreement. Alansplodge (talk) 21:57, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Precisely. I don't read blogs nor many political commentators, and I've never heard or read it in the mainstream news. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:38, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
- Quite so. I don't think anybody would refer to themselves as being part of a rump, except in self-deprecation (a British speciality). The Tea Party movement seems to be the main target of American usage, but it seems to be understood by US journalists and political bloggers, if not by the wider population. Watch this space... Alansplodge (talk) 19:43, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
Resolved
– again.