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October 15[edit]


Why do the greeks have separate letters for clusters 'ps' and 'ks' but not for 'ts' and 'dz' when 'ts' and 'dz' are regarded as single sounds while 'ps' and 'ks' are not?--Quand tu chantes (talk) 15:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

English is weird in this respect, too, with "x" making either the "z" or "ks" sounds, while "th", "sh", and "ch" seem to be one sound each ("th" can be two different sounds, but only one at a time). StuRat (talk) 15:40, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Quand_tu_chantes -- [ts] and [dz] are not usually considered "single sounds". Rather, they're common affricates, which in many languages can be considered a phonemic unit. Also, ancient Greek did have a letter for "dz" -- the pronunciation of the letter Zeta in various dialects of ancient Greek was commonly either [zd] or [dz]... AnonMoos (talk) 17:20, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Quand tu chantes, I suspect the answer is mostly that they had a use for them. The sequences /ks/ and /ps/ were and are common in Greek. /ts/ was rare in Ancient Greek, being usually assimilated to /ss/ or /s/. I think in Modern Greek it is mostly found in loan-words. --ColinFine (talk) 23:30, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The best-known forms of ancient Greek (Attic/Ionic/Koine) completely lacked [ts], but it may have been present in some earlier forms of the language and/or obscurer dialects. The Linear B syllabary symbols conventionally transcribed as "za", "ze", and "zo" probably wrote affricates of some kind, both voiced and voiceless. AnonMoos (talk) 02:51, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Cebuano Wikipedia[edit]

I noticed (here) that Cebuano language Wikipedia has the 2nd largest number of articles, nearly as large as English WP and much more than (#3) Swedish. The Cebuano language, a regional language in the Philippines mostly limited to the southern half (which I've never heard of before) has only about 21 million native speakers. Is there some reason why their WP is so big? — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:4C0B:CDC2:99AA:D3FA (talk) 16:58, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Lsjbot Шурбур (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
StuRat -- It's extremely difficult to imagine how any inclusionist editorial policy in combination with human-written encyclopedia articles could result in Cebuano having 250% as many articles as either French or German... AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
[After repeated edit conflicts]
2606:A000:4C0C:E200:4C0B:CDC2:99AA:D3FA -- It's called Lsjbot; see the previous discussion on Talk:List of Wikipedias#Lsjbot... AnonMoos (talk) 17:10, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Hmmm ... interesting; thanks. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:4C0B:CDC2:99AA:D3FA (talk) 17:18, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

German "auf etwas kommen"[edit]

How would you translate "Wie kommt man bitte auf so einen Namen?" (e. g. referring to an exotic name given to a child)?--Cleph (talk) 17:06, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

The literal translation is something like "Can you please tell me how you came up with such a name ?", but, depending on how they said it, this may imply that the speaker is unhappy with the choice, and thinks it too unusual. StuRat (talk) 17:16, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Thank you very much – "come up with" is exactly the idiom I was looking for! Best wishes--Cleph (talk) 17:57, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Cleph, refering to the headline, my first translation is: "how can You get such idea". Reading the complete question, I think "what makes You choose this name" would fit. Yes, the question sounds as a typical reaction of an exotic name. --Hans Haase (有问题吗) 07:17, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Duck test[edit]

Per the article: "The duck test is a humorous term...". (Ignoring the fact that it is not really "humorous"). Is there a term for what type of term this is? Its not quite an idiom, maxim, adage or epigram. — 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:4C0B:CDC2:99AA:D3FA (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

I notice this is pretty much the exact opposite of "You can't judge a book by it's cover." The duck test says that you can do just that. StuRat (talk) 19:26, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
A razor? ---Sluzzelin talk 19:27, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
The article has been changed (here), removing - is a humorous term for - per WP:REFERS by user:Deor; a good solution, since evidently, it is what it is. Razor (philosophy) added to 'See also' as related but perhaps not exactly what it is (pending source stating otherwise). 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:4C0B:CDC2:99AA:D3FA (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
It can be used in a humorous way (I recall Mark Russell doing a song about it regarding politicians and/or political issues) but is by no means always humorous. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:47, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
Aphorism? Or Saw (saying), a specific type of aphorism?--William Thweatt TalkContribs 04:47, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Mirror refers to it as a maxim,[1] but I don't consider Mirror to be a paragon of reliability. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:198D:93E0:4AF4:F57D (talk) 15:50, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

How to get started on IPA?[edit]

  • Is there a beginner's guide on how to read IPA so I can learn to produce all kinds of phonemes?
  • What do the fancy terms mean? "Move the tongue back." "Move the tongue forward." "Make a nasal sound." "Touch the roof of the mouth." Most of the time, people make pronunciation easy, but in reality, these descriptions don't describe exactly how one produces the sound. Touch the roof? Very tightly or loosely? (talk) 22:50, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
    • If it were me, I would start by studying how my own language's sounds are made in my mouth, compared with the descriptions of making those sounds. That could give you a better understanding of what these various terms mean. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:52, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Yes, that's a good way to start. If you have a mobile phone or tablet and are confident in your English pronunciation, then the best way to learn the IPA sounds in that language is Macmillan's Sounds app and it's free! I have used it with many students. It will take you a few weeks to learn the sounds. If English is not a good starting point for you, or you are ready to move further afield, then I have found 'head charts' very helpful (I can't access Wikimedia Commons because of a bug, but you might find more charts there). Of course, you'll only really make progress in pronunciation by getting some feedback, so you might want to join an online language-learning community and ask people to comment on your pronunciation of various words/phrases in their language. The reasons that they give for your errors may not be helpful, but the yes/no feedback will be. Matt's talk 09:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
See Help:IPA/Introduction and Help:IPA/English. Loraof (talk) 00:48, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
Reading the article in the first link, I am beginning to think that IPA is intended to be written as a pronunciation guide for monolingual native English speakers. (talk) 01:07, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
If IPA had been written for monolingual English speakers, surely the authors would not have chosen the the character "j" to represent the palatal approximant (<j>) sound, since that is a 'false friend' for English readers? Moving from speculation to fact, our article on its history hints that the most important target audience was French learners of English. Matt's talk 09:37, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
That figures. The IPA also uses the character "p" to represent the b in Hanyupinyin. In Standard Mandarin, b and p are distinct sounds, and b sounds nowhere like a p. This representation, I believe, is too misleading. On the other hand, I am aware that some non-native Mandarin learners really do have a hard time distinguishing the b and p in Mandarin. Perhaps, the IPA authors are one of them. (talk) 01:24, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
A visual compare method is very helpful. Шурбур (talk) 07:01, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

October 17[edit]

How come la caballera doesn't exist as a noun?[edit]

I can't find it in my dictionary. There is el caballero, which means the gentleman or knight. That makes sense, as knights really did ride on horses. But there is no la caballera. I know la doña means "lady", but it's not la caballera. (talk) 13:13, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Because it doesn't? Language is never a complete or consistent system, and the sort of symmetry you seek is not universal. You will never find a natural language which is rigidly consistent, and there are lots of things languages do like that. --Jayron32 13:58, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Put it another way. If I say "la caballera" to a native Spanish speaker, then would they still understand me? Or will they think I'm referring to la doña? I know languages aren't consistent, but humans are flexible. Just like in English, ketchup and tomato sauce are two different things. But if a non-native speaker says, "hamburger tomato sauce", the native speaker may still get a hint at what the person is saying, even though the terminology is wrong. (talk) 14:04, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Probably. They'd find it marked, but they would understand what you were going for. If I told you my mother was a doctress, you'd find it weird, but you'd probably work out that I meant female doctor. That's because grammatical gender rules in languages such as spanish is productive. That means you can apply known rules to create new words, and those new words will be understood, but will not necessarily be recognized as standard or comfortable. --Jayron32 14:11, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
On pt:wp cavalheiro redirects to "gentleman". Cavalheira is nothing more than a suburb of the Brazilian municipality of Cachoeira do Sul in the state of Rio Grande do Sul. Cavaleiro is from the Latin caballus, a gelding or dray, and now is a rank between baronet and esquire. The feminine is dama. Cavaleira redirects to an article on technical drawing. The answer to your question is probably that women do not fight on horseback. (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
So, what word should one use to describe a woman fighter on horseback? Caballera or something else? (talk) 17:17, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
To give an example from another Romance language (now that we've also mentioned Portuguese), in French you could theoretically feminize "chevalier" as "chevalière", but a chevalière is actually a signet ring. A female knight (such as a recipient of the Legion of Honour) is a "femme chevalier". Adam Bishop (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The Real Academia website[2] lists both caballero and caballera. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:40, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
But if you actually read the results it shows that "caballera" is only ever a feminine adjective, not a noun meaning a female knight. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:44, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The feminine counterpart of a caballero is a dama. If you mean the feminine counterpart of a horseman, that would be la jinete. Jinete can be masculine or feminine. A woman fighter on horseback is una luchadora a caballo. —Stephen (talk) 06:33, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

October 18[edit]

TV commercial for drug Anoro featuring Fleetwood Mac's song "Go Your Own Way"[edit]

This question is about a TV commercial for the drug Anoro, featuring Fleetwood Mac's song "Go Your Own Way". The video is here: Anoro: Go Your Own Way. In this commercial, they sing the phrase "go your own way" three times. These occur once at the 0:07 time mark; once at the 0:14 time mark; and once at the 0:55 time mark. The first two occurrences sound similar; however, the last occurrence (at the 0:55 time mark) has a very different sound to it. I'd like to know what would be a good adjective to describe that third version of the phrase being sung. The only words I can think of are "guttural" or "earthy", but those seem insufficient and not quite right. If the director of the commercial were directing the singer, how would he tell them to sing that third occurrence? What words might he use? Thanks. (talk) 14:13, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

The phrase mimics the original song; the chorus actually does that; however you'll note the third line has a different melody and singer than the first two. In the original song, the chorus has Lindsay Buckingham singing the last line with that melody; where as I believe first few lines are sung by the band in parts, with Stevie Nicks carrying the melody for those two lines. So the effect is caused by a different vocalist (as in the original). The melody in the last part descends rather than climbs within the structure of the song, so I might call it counterpoint? I'm not sure there is any other specific effect other than the vocalist mimicing the peculiarities of Lindsay Buckingham's singing style. --Jayron32 15:47, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
@Jayron32: Thanks. You are saying that -- in the drug commercial -- there are two different singers? One singer is performing the first two occurrences of "go your own way"; and a completely different singer is performing the third occurrence? (talk) 03:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Yes, the first two occurances are a female singer (it sounds heavily Auto-Tuned as well), with harmonies behind her, while the third occurance is a male singer singing without harmonies. The arrangement is almost identical to the original, with the same basic vocal parts. The third singer even takes on the quirks of Lindsey Buckingham's voice. If you listen to the original, you can hear the similarities. --Jayron32 11:20, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I did not even recognize that the first singer was a female and the second, male. I guess that I just assumed it was all the same person, singing differently (as directed by the director). Hence, my original question. Yes, I did listen to the original song; many versions of it, in fact. Thanks. It's a great song. I am a little surprised that Fleetwood Mac -- I assume that they "own" the song? -- would allow one of their greatest songs to be used in such a base manner (in a drug commercial). Seems odd. I assume they are all millionaires. And I assume they are not getting all that much money from this TV commercial. But, maybe I am wrong? It just seems like a very popular (and very wealthy) artist would have a bit more "integrity" than to want to see their art work "debased" in this way. No? (talk) 17:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
The song would be "owned" not by Fleetwood Mac (who would only own specific performances of the song). Instead, songs are owned by a publishing company or group of such companies. A publishing company has only one purpose: to own copyrights and collect revenue for using them. MOST songwriters have their own publishing companies, and many bands that write collaboratively have a publishing company that handles the music end. If you have a band that writes their own songs, you can think of them as two overlapping ompanies: the band as a performing company and a publisher as a publishing company. In the case of "Go Your Own Way", it was published by Gentoo Music Inc. and Now Sounds Music are the music publishing companies. Gentoo is the Publishing company for Fleetwood Mac, while Now Sounds Music was the publisher for Lindsey Buckingham. (see Here for Buckingham's publishing company]. The rights to record a new version of a song have to be granted by the publishing company. Since the writer themselves is often the decision maker for said publishing company, they still get final say. But it doesn't always work that way; bands and writers (often not knowing better) often signed away publishing royalties, and some people (like Allen Klein/ABKCO) make their money by buying up publishing companies and then acquiring copyright on songs to collect royalties. To make it simple, the rights to use the song would have to be granted by Gentoo Inc. and Now Sounds Music. The granting of rights to use songs is negotiated by entertainment lawyers under the advise of their clients, the songwriters and their publishing company. This is usually handled by large clearinghouses such as Broadcast Music, Inc. or American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers, which handles all of the dirty work, though the owner of the copyright has the right of refusal. --Jayron32 18:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Also, are you sure that the second singer is male? I just listened to the song again. Seems like a female singer to me, at the 0:55 time mark. (talk) 18:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
It's clearly a guy to me. Or a guy's voice, anyway. Maybe try again with headphones, if you hadn't. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:23, October 20, 2017 (UTC)
Note that a vocal portamento is steadily changing the frequency of sung notes. That term doesn't indicate whether the frequency is increasing or decreasing, but the written music would show the notes, and the wavy line drawn between them indicates a steady blend rather than sharp change in frequency. StuRat (talk) 16:08, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The ad just popped up on my TV, and I think it's a cover - and that whoever they commissioned to do the song altered it to fit the ad. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:53, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Is there any doubt that it's a cover version? Certainly, that is not Fleetwood Mac singing in the drug commercial. Correct? (talk) 03:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe try answering the question being asked? The OP never doubted it was a cover. --Viennese Waltz 06:47, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Maybe try not to be what you normally are. I've heard the ad and there's nothing special about the final "go your own way" except that it ends a sentence instead of leading into the next bit of music. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
I did not say that there was anything "special" about the third occurrence of "go your own way". But, clearly, it is sung "differently" than the first two occurrences. Do you agree or disagree with that? Thanks. (talk) 18:05, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
It's sung differently in that it ends the song with a full-stop / period rather than doing a fade-out like the Mac version does.[3]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:07, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

US Dollar Currency[edit]

Searching for a reliable record (starting from the beginning of time till to date) displaying 'ups' and 'downs' and 'stable' position of the currency please. (talk) 15:28, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

This brief article has a nice graph and links to another article with more detailed information. It's not the highest quality source, so caveat lector, but it's a start for you. --Jayron32 15:41, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
That's a chart against inflation. Against gold, the price was fixed at 35 dollars an ounce for many years. Against sterling, for a long time the cent was worth a halfpenny. See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 March 27#What's worth a pound? (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The earlier discussion actually mentions the cent used to be worth 1/200 £, that is 1.2d, which is much more than a halfpenny. -- (talk) 19:23, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
There must be an error in there - before World War II the dollar was worth about five shillings, so four dollars to the pound, and 400 cents (making a cent slightly more than a half-penny). Until decimalisation, "dollar" was fairly common British slang for five shillings. Wymspen (talk) 10:18, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Also (sort of) in New Zealand. "Half a dollar" was a slang term for 2 shillings and sixpence. Akld guy (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
That article 77.138 links to explains that "a halfpenny ... was a unit of currency that equalled half of a penny or 1/480th of a pound sterling." As a decimal that's 0.0020833... of a pound. Post - decimalisation the halfpenny was indeed worth 1/200 of a pound, i.e. 1.2 old pence, which is 0.005 in decimal. You will note that the ratio 0.005/0.0020833... is 2.4 to one. This is because the penny (and therefore the halfpenny) increased in value by that amount although it could no longer be spent (unless it was part of the Maundy money) and nobody spends Maundy money because its silver content far outweighs its face value. Re ColinFine's comment, I still have my copy of the San Serriffe supplement from 1 April 1977. I will have to look at it, but from what he says it appears to be a mixture of Dutch, Portuguese and Spanish as well. This fits in with AnonMoose's Papiamento theory. (talk) 11:25, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
77.138 wrote 1.2d - thereby clearly indicating that he meant pre-decimal - since decimalisation the abbreviation has always been "p" Wymspen (talk) 15:40, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
See also From $5 to $1.22: the 200-year journey of the pound against the dollar which says: "For most of the 1800s until the start of the First World War, every £1 was worth just under $5. The Napoleonic wars, which weakened the pound, was one exceptional period; as was the US Civil War, which saw the pound temporarily spiking up to $10... Governments however still viewed fixed exchange rates as desirable, and so in 1940 the pound was pegged to the dollar at a fixed rate of $4.03. This deal became part of the Bretton Woods agreement that was signed in 1944, which governed financial relations between 44 countries for much of the mid 20th century". Alansplodge (talk) 15:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Reply to Akld guy: In Britain the coin worth two shillings and sixpence (the "half crown") was also colloquially known as "half a dollar". The sixpence was a "tanner", the shilling was a "bob", and the two shilling piece (or "florin") was "two bob". Australia decimalised on 14 February 1966 (the day that I took up my first salaried position) and in 1971 Australians were still calling their twenty cent coins "two bob" (they were identical to the two shilling pieces they replaced). 2A00:23C0:7903:B901:542E:486E:9136:263F (talk) 11:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Tanner was never used in NZ, but "bob" was used in place of shilling and "quid" was used in place of pound. NZ changed to decimal currency on 10 July 1967. Akld guy (talk) 19:39, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

October 19[edit]

Not profanity[edit]

What would be the antonym of Profanity? RedPanda25 18:46, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Not every word has an antonym. The world is not neatly divided into perfect oppositional pairs. There is no such antonym. --Jayron32 18:50, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Profanity ... pleasantry ... a "close enough" antonym ... no? (talk) 19:31, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
"Holy" is the opposite of "Profane".[4] Another good one would be "Pure".[5]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 19:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for the responses. "Pleasantry" would make the most sense, as a word that is used to please as opposed to offend. RedPanda25 19:46, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
"Profanity" covers a lot of ground. "Profane language" seems to be what you're generally talking about, and it's by no means always intended to offend. As with this little classic:[6]Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 20:17, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
There's the Sacred–profane dichotomy. But not everything that is non-sacred is a profanity, and not everything that is not a profanity is sacred. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 21:11, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Here's a commentary on the Bayeux Tapestry,[7] which originally hung in the local cathedral. The author says, "To the objection that a sacred building would not have been a suitable place for profane subject matter, one can answer that the subject of the hanging was not exactly a profane one: it is a type of tract about an oath." Specifically, the loyalty oath that Harold swore and then reneged on (as told in the tapestry). ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 21:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

October 20[edit]


In American English, the ph sound is taught that it is actually pronounced like an f. So, philosophy, philanthropy, and pho are pronounced like an f. Phillip begins with a ph and sounds like f, but Stephen contains a ph but sounds like a v. So, Stephen sounds like Steven. Some languages actually have Stefani or Stefan. Spanish speakers probably hear a v, so their version becomes Esteban, with the b pronounced like an English v. So, that means ph really has two different pronunciations v and f? (talk) 02:16, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

In that one word, at least. This is one of those exceptions in English. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 03:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC) -- "Stephen" for what would be more naturally be spelled in English as "Steven" is a classicizing spelling (like the "b" in "debt" and "doubt" etc etc). The letter "f" also has a [v] pronunciation, if you count "of"... AnonMoos (talk) 03:49, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Then there's "aphelion"... Rojomoke (talk) 04:50, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Since it's "perigee" and "apogee" then it should be "perihelion" and "apohelion". But it ain't. :( ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:05, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Since it's "face" and "Paul", then it should be "bacebaul". But it ain't. -- Jack of Oz [pleasantries] 05:24, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Is there a term to describe the change in perspective between languages?[edit]

One language may view item A as default while item B is special. Another language may view the exact same object but take item B as default! One language may have an ancient idiom that is ONLY understood within the context of the geographical homeland; when this idiom is translated to a different language in a different geographical location, the meaning is lost, but the metaphorical meaning is retained. (talk) 04:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Do you have a specific example? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:02, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure there is a word which describes your specific situation. The nearest concept I can think of would be some sort of linguistic paradigm shift. --Jayron32 11:21, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
You might be interested in linguistic relativity, and untranslatability137.110.73.234 (talk) 00:35, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

Commons Category:Paintings by name[edit]

"Paintings by name" is ambiguous thus I want to make it a disambiguation page. *Category:Paintings by title (title of painting), *Category:Paintings by by author's name (redirect to Category:Paintings by artist]]) and "*Category: Paintings by subject name" (name of depicted person name). "Paintings by subject name" is a correct and not strange expression? Thanks. Regards--Pierpao (talk) 08:17, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

It's strange. If you really want to restrict it to depicted persons, I offer you Paintings by name of subject. However, some of the paintings have subjects which are not persons, so perhaps just Paintings by subject would be better? HenryFlower 10:42, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
Being able to find paintings of particular people might be useful - so how about "Portraits by name of subject" Wymspen (talk) 15:19, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

October 21[edit]