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February 3[edit]

German technical engineering term[edit]

Greetings, keepers of the eternal flame! I wonder if any German speaker might be able to translate the German engineering term Schubvorgelege for me? It's a very specific term applied (I think) to older automotive gearboxes, specifically in WW2 half-tracks. In a literal sense it might be rendered as 'thrust reduction gear' or 'thrust transmission', but I have failed to come up with an equivalent technically satisfying term in English. I have been a mechanical engineer by trade (or one of them), so I am quite happy with English technical terms. I also get the feeling that a similar term Schubgetriebe might be translated as 'crash gearbox', ie an old-fashioned non-synchronized gearbox which needs skilful double de-clutching to avoid that crunch factor, but my German ability tends towards "Sagt es niemand, nur den Weisen" rather than crankshafts and carburettors. MinorProphet (talk) 17:39, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t know jack about automative stuff, but the figure shown here, captioned as a Peugeotgetriebe, is called a Schubvorgelege on page 207, and characterized there as the most common type of switching system. --Lambiam 20:21, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi MinorProphet, technical terms are the hardest! Just wanted to mention that the German wiki has a lively Ref Desk itself, so if we can't get it here they might be of help tackling it from the other direction. Auskunft. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:51, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No idea what is meant technically, but we could start probably by translating the description in File:Gearbox retouched.png? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 10:37, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Done MinorProphet (talk)[reply]

Schub(rad)vorgelege is an old-fashioned term for a regular sliding-mesh gearbox. Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 11:27, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all so much for your swift and helpful replies. I will go with 'sliding-mesh gearbox' for the moment, which I think is the equivalent of Schieberadgetriebe. @Torana:, what might be the German term for 'constant-mesh'? MinorProphet (talk) 14:43, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MinorProphet: All I can think of is paraphrasing that as [Getriebe mit] Zahnräder[n] in dauerhaftem/ständigem Eingriff ("… gears in constant mesh") or something like that. Online, I also found "Getriebe mit ständig ineinandergreifenden Zahnrädern". Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 16:53, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I came up against the same sort of lengthy circumlocution. Thanks again for your help. >MinorProphet (talk) 16:59, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article Layshaft and its German equivalent de:Vorgelege. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 09:23, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Which, as I’ve already said at de.wiki, aren’t exactly equivalent. The problem being that there are several articles both on de and en which treat a variety of subjects. Layshaft, e.g., also includes gears with as well as those without (!) a layshaft/countershaft, information which is probably equivalent to that in de:Fahrzeuggetriebe for lack of anything more specialized. I really don’t know how we could solve this confusion, though. Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 09:48, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that part of the problem is that this is a fairly generic term that can be applied to any of various devices that somehow transmit the thrust (power) of an engine to the wheels. Consider the various translations of Schub and of Vorgelege, as well as how eager the German language is to form compound nouns. A somewhat literal translation is "thrust transmission device". --Lambiam 14:40, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I should add that the Duden has for Schub a sense in physics and technology of "Kraft, mit der etwas nach vorn getrieben, gestoßen wird; Vortrieb"^[1] ("force with which something is pushed forward; propulsion"), while Vorgelege is defined as as "eine Übertragungsvorrichtung",^[2] which literally means, "a transmission device". --Lambiam 14:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes and no. Schub (from the verb schieben, cognate with Engl. "shove") has a range of meanings, but in this context it definitely refers to the sliding gears. Vorgelege was historcially used in a slighly less limited sense, and was more or less interchangeable with Getriebe = "gear(box)". Cheers ⌘ _hugarheimur 18:39, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@MinorProphet and Torana: This illustration supports that Schubvorgelege corresponds to de:Schieberadgetriebe = 'sliding-mesh gearbox'. –Austronesier (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I had a very interesting and enlightening conversation over at the very 'lively' German ref desk. As Torana says, the 'Schub-' seems to refer to the idea that the entire gear wheel is physically 'shoved' or 'thrust' along one shaft to slide into mesh with the corresponding gear on the other shaft in a sliding-mesh g/box. This is the one of the oldest types of transmission, dating back to at least 1906 which Austronesier's pdf shows (p. 89 [pdf 103]). The French call it a 'it:Train baladeur', and the modern term is 'Schieberadgetriebe' where 'Schieberad' is a sliding or pushed gear.

If have understood correctly, the constant-mesh box is a 'klauengeschaltetes Getriebe', where 'klauen' are the dog clutches which effect the gear change, with 'schalten', to shift or change, esp. gears in this sense. The dog clutches are still technically 'thrust' into place, and double de-clutching is still needed for a painless action, so on its own it is another type of crash gearbox. In a modern synchromesh box, '(voll)synchronisiertes Schaltgetriebe' the synchro friction rings absorb (synchronize) the difference in the shafts' speeds, and I think that something like 'Synchrongetriebe' might define a constant-mesh, synchro gearbox in one word without getting into too much technical trouble. @Torana:, thanks for your help, and thanks to everyone for such an interesting and fruitful discussion. >MinorProphet (talk) 02:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]