Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/John Leak

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Parsecboy (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 19:20, 30 May 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

John Leak[edit]

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

John Leak (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The latest in my project to get all South Australian VCs to FA. Leak was a British migrant who settled in SA after the war and died here. Very reticent to talk about his war experiences, he faded into obscurity despite his VC. The article went through GAN a while ago, and I think it includes everything that there is available on him, including the most recent book on Aussie VCs by Blanch and Pegram. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:54, 27 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments: G'day, PM, nice work. A rather enigmatic individual. I have a few comments/suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 05:59, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • suggest linking Battle of Pozières in the body of the article
  • trenches — OG 1 and OG 2 --> unspaced emdash, or spaced endash
  • an lengthy bombardment --> "a lengthy bombardment"?
  • Charles Bean, as "among the heaviest that occurred either on the Somme or at Verdun".: suggest adding a citation after the quote
  • On 31 July, Leak was... suggest maybe splitting the paragraph here
  • On 23 February he went --> suggest adding an introductory comma after "On 23 February"
  • Ultimately, the sentence was suspended: do we know why? I assume his past deeds and possible shell shock might have been taken into consideration, but that is just speculation
  • I had the same thought, but there isn't anything in his court martial file to indicate why the decision was taken. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • On 30 December 1918, after his... suggest starting a new paragraph here
  • On 10 April he attended...: suggest adding an introductory comma (as per above)
  • At some point his wife disappeared from his life: are there any more details about this? Did she leave him, or literally became a "missing person" who potentially met with some unfortunate fate?
    • This source suggests she did not join him in Australia when he returned: [2]. It also talks about some of the confusion about his age (for instance the headstone stating he was only 76 at death, which would mean he was born in 1896). I wonder if Ancestry.com has solved the question...but, of course, that doesn't help us here at the moment
  • It isn't clear, I've gone for this vague formulation because we need to explain his second marriage, but none of the sources say what happened to her. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:34, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The VC online source I've listed above says "Beatrice was left behind in Wales and never joined him in Australia". I feel this is pretty clear, but maybe I am missing something here? Also, currently the article says "Leak and his new wife sailed for Australia" -- which is cited to the NAA record. I couldn't see mention of the wife in the record on p. 64. Given that it seems likely she didn't make the journey, I'd suggest at least just saying "Leak sailed for Australia". This source also says she didn't make the journey: [3]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:53, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit unsure of how reliable either source is regarding this issue. The Brisbane Council website is reliable for the street name, but I think it is dubious for Leak's personal details. If Blanch and Pegram didn't see fit to make it clear in their recently published work, I wonder how reliable vconline is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:36, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • G'day, PM, fair enough, although the site does have a comprehensive bibliography [4] (but alas no specific citations) and it might be possible to contact them to clarify what source they have used for the information about Beatrice not leaving the UK, per their contact page here: [5] It might be possible then to view whatever source they used and cite that if considered reliable. If you don't feel like you want to do this, no worries, it probably is a bit above and beyond; however, I feel that there is sufficient doubt about the sentence (in our article) On 9 February 1919, Leak and his new wife sailed for Australia...., particularly as it is cited to the NAA service record, which as I state above I cannot see where it mentions the wife. As such, at the very least I think this sentence should be revised to remove mention of the wife, unless you have a source that specifically states that she came with him (from memory I think They Dared Mightly might say this -- but I don't have the book at the moment). Anyway, I have to go away for a while at short notice to deal with some drama interstate, so will check back in a week or so when hopefully I will be back home. All the best. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:12, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This was rather sloppy of me, I should have rechecked the sources. After mentioning the marriage, Wigmore and Harding say "They then returned to Australia on 9 April 1919", as does Staunton. I've added those citations for the return trip leaving the NAA citation just for the arrival in Qld. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:41, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Works for me, but I do hope that one day a reliable source will emerge that resolves this ambiguity as I feel that there is a rather sad story here that probably deserves to be told. Anyway, great work as always. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In 1964, Ada died suddenly: do we know the cause?
  • Leak died at Redwood Park: do we know the cause?
  • the article is in the category "Australian people of English descent", but is this accurate? If his parents were both Welsh, wouldn't Category:Australian people of Welsh descent be more appropriate? I note, however, that the Mays source says "Cultural Heritage: English", so I suppose that is why it sits in the English descent category. Probably fraught with danger moving it either way, I suppose (minor quibble, probably no action really required)
  • Image review:
    • the caption for "File:John Leak VC AWM A03589.jpg" says "married a month later" -- but this doesn't gel with the timeline presented in the article. The photo was taken in November 1916, but Leak didn't marry Beatrice until December 1918
    • licences seem correct to me (no action required)
  • Sources:
    • in the Books section, slightly inconsistent "Sydney: Angus & Robertson" v. "Sydney, New South Wales: Angus & Robertson"
    • in the Books, the Staunton work has a secondary title that could be added: "Victoria Cross: Australia's Finest and the Battles They Fought"
    • in the Websites, slightly inconsistent use of italics. Compare "Australian War Memorial" with "Australian War Memorial"
    • sources appear reliable to me (no action required)
  • there are no dab links and no actionable dup links (no action required)
  • I believe there is a street named for Leak in Glenelg -- vaguely remember it from when I lived there many years ago. Not sure if its mentioned in any sources, though, for you to cite
  • No worries. However, there is also a street named for him at Gallipoli Barracks, which can be sourced to this: [6]. AustralianRupert (talk) 07:53, 4 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. Strangely enough, real life took me to Leak Street just yesterday. It was a rather humbling experience in what was otherwise a rather disappointing week which tested my faith in human beings in general...sorry. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:16, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This article is in excellent shape. I have the following comments:

  • " the highest award for gallantry in battle that could be awarded at that time to a member of the Australian armed forces" - not sure about the "at that time" here - presumably it's because it's referring to the VC, and not the VC for Australia, but this distinction might be pretty minor for the lead (especially as the medals are essentially identical, with the VC for Australia being the 'Australianised' version of the VC). I'd suggest discussing this when it appears in the body of the article.
  • I think it is ok to make the distinction in the lead, it is commonly made when describing say, Keith Payne's VC, as distinct from the Afghanistan ones. As the media did when Payne was in Adelaide for ANZAC Day recently. The Victoria Cross for Australia is a unique award with different approval requirements with the same short name. I would make the same distinction for Roberts-Smith, Donaldson etc. I've also piped Australian armed forces as distinct from ADF, which is a more recent creation. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and joined the fifth reinforcement draft " - this implies he had a choice over where he went. I'd suggest replacing "joined" with something like "was assigned to"
  • The first three sentences of the para starting with "He was evacuated" refer to Leak only as "he". I'd suggest mixing this up a bit.
  • "At some point his wife disappeared from his life" - this is slightly unusual wording - presumably nothing is known about what happened? (even whether there was a divorce?)
  • the reliable Australian sources say that his first wife travelled with him to Australia, but that he remarried later, nothing about what happened to her. See my discussion with AustralianRupert above about this. I've therefore left it suitably vague. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know what the current location of Leak's VC is? (presumably still held by the family?). Nick-D (talk) 07:28, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good question, but as is often the case with these VCs, there is no coverage of it because it doesn't appear to have changed hands. Presumably in the hands of the family. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the family still holds it, I imagine they don't want to advertise the fact due to the risk of theft (as the NZ case shows is a major issue), so fair enough. Nick-D (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've addressed the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:44, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support My comments have now been addressed Nick-D (talk) 11:21, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]

  • Anzac Cove beachhead on the Gallipoli peninsula in the Ottoman Empire Capitalise "peninsula".
  • had been withdrawn back to Egypt for re-organisation Unlink Egypt 'cause of common term.
  • Leak's battalion was allocated a 500-metre (550 yd) Does Australia uses metric units at the time?
  • had fought in the Battles of Broodseinde and Passchendaele Maybe add Belgium after "Passchendaele".

That's anything from me I think. CPA-5 (talk) 16:22, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look, CPA-5! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:11, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries soldier. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 06:36, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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