Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Kidnapping of Heinrich Kreipe

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hog Farm (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 03:20, 11 January 2021 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Kidnapping of Heinrich Kreipe

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Catlemur (talk)

The kidnapping of Major General Heinrich Kreipe was a successfully executed operation conducted jointly by the Special Operations Executive and the Greek resistance fighters. Initially seen as a symbolic propaganda victory, it ended up causing the Germans to initiate large-scale reprisals against Crete's civilian population. The operation entered popular imagination through the biographical works of several of its participants, most notably Moss's book Ill Met by Moonlight and its movie adaptation.--Catlemur (talk) 09:00, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review—pass

I do not think that the image of Kreipe meets WP:NFCC requirements. What he looked like seems to be irrelevant to the details of the event, and the NFCC rationale is not specific enough about what understanding it is adding to the article.
The monument image has been nominated for deletion on commons as there is no freedom of panorama in Greece. Since there is no critical commentary on the monument, it does not meet NFCC requirements either. (t · c) buidhe 04:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both images removed.--Catlemur (talk) 05:42, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild

I will possibly do a little copy editing as I go. Let me know if I mess anything up or do something you don't understand.

"attacked by a massive Nazi airborne invasion on 20 May 1941". "massive" seems PoV. (And not that accurate.) What does the source say?

I reckon the word "massive" was used to signify the fact that it was one of the first large scale airborne invasions in history, rather than imply that the Allies were outnumbered. In any case I removed it for good measure.--Catlemur (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSUE states "English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones when available and of equal quality and relevance" so I am unsure why a Greek-language source is used to cite relatively common facts.

I can certainly say that I have not been avoiding English-language sources on purpose, it just happens that my local library has a limited selection of English language books. But if its necessary I can try replacing the Greek language refs as long as you point out which ones need to go.--Catlemur (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I imagine that I have general texts which can be used to cite this general background. Once it is agreed what is being said. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"reaching Greece's southern shore on 30 April and ending the Battle of Greece". Just where was reached on 30 April? (Athens was occupied on the 27th and Kalamata on the 28th.)

@Gog the Mild: I suppose Kalamata counts as part of the southern shore and the source means more remote ports like Monemvasia or the island of Kythira. Should I change it to 28th?--Catlemur (talk) 18:31, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

How about something like 'Athens was occupied on 28 April and the last resistance on the Greek mainland mopped up by the 30th'?

Done

"Following the Armistice of Cassibile" is not going to mean anything to most readers. Maybe 'Following the surrender of Italy to the Allies in September 1943' or similar?

Done

"Motor Torpedo Boat" should not have upper case initial letters.

Done

"being personally responsible for ..." "personally seems unnecessary to me. It is not as if being impersonally responsible were an option.

Done

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Leigh Fermor reestablished old contacts". Name individuals by surname only after first mention.

Done

"While certainly not as infamous as Müller, Kreipe had been decorated with the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross for his role in the Siege of Leningrad and the fighting in the Kuban." I think this means work. Do you mean famous or infamous, if the latter I am not sure why his decorations and campaign history is flagged up. Perhaps give a brief summary of his military career, highlighting his activities and add - if you consider it germane - his decorations on the end.

Removed the sentence entirely.--Catlemur (talk) 16:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"reluctantly agreed to continue with their plan." Consider deleting "reluctantly".

Done

"the hideout of a local rebel band". By "rebel band" do you mean a group from the Cretan resistance? If not, what or who were they rebelling against?

Changed to resistance resistance group.--Catlemur (talk) 14:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Mikis' house was conveniently located"> Use surnames.

Done

"Leigh Fermor dressed up as a Cretan shepherd". "dressed up" → 'disguised himself'.

Done

"the area surrounding the villa. Surrounded by" Try to avoid "surrounding ... Surrounded".

Done

"it was deemed too dangerous to attempt a kidnapping directly" Rephrase. This suggests that they decided to attempt an indirect kidnapping, which I don't think is what you mean.

Done

"a small vineyard cottage". Suggest deleting "vineyard".

Done

"some twenty minutes from the abduction point". Either add 'travel time' or similar or give as a distance.

Done

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:57, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"set up a wire from a height". I don't understand what this means.

Reworded.--Catlemur (talk) 17:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "Operation" section is too "chatty". In places it reads like a novel rather than an encyclopedia article. By all means let us keep the writing accessible, but "they reluctantly agreed"; "Leigh Fermor smiled". It really needs thinning down quite a bit to meet "does not go into unnecessary detail."

I cut out some sentences, feel free to point out what else needs to be removed.--Catlemur (talk) 17:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jumping to "Aftermath"

"Major Patrick Leigh Fermor was awarded". Surname only.

Done

"However the wisdom behind the abduction came into question as Kreipe was hardly a Nazi zealot, and with the Normandy landings being already anticipated he had no reason not to be cooperative with his captors." I am not sure how the first half of this sentence is supposed to link to the second.

Second part of the sentence removed.--Catlemur (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, IMO, too much detail. Eg, I would suggest deleting

"(known to the locals as Sifis)"
"to avoid being drafted".
"The infuriated"

Actually, the whole of this paragraph seems not relevant. In what way do the activities described link to the topic of the article?

Done

Similarly for the next paragraph. I don't see how the capture of Olenhauer or death of a newspaper publisher etc have to do with the topic. By all means make then separate articles, if they meet WP:NOTE.

I trimmed the details significantly, I kept one sentence on the Damasta sabotage since it was one of the main reasons the Germans initiated harsh reprisals against Anogeia. I can make the paragraph even more concise if needed.--Catlemur (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMO the quote falls foul of MOS:QUOTE "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style ... It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Consider paraphrasing quotations into plain and concise text when appropriate".

Quote removed entirely.--Catlemur (talk) 16:11, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"These events were portrayed in Moss's book Ill Met by Moonlight: The Abduction of General Kreipe." When was it published?

Done

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"900 houses were burned". Sentences should not begin with numbers. (No, I don't know why either.)

Done

"Aftermath" now looks good".
The whole article is now, IMO, in much better shape.
I am still concerned that some parts of "Operation" either go into unnecessary detail (eg "they were driven to Brindisi airport"), has minor PoV blemishes (eg "ironically contributing to the success of his own kidnapping") or use non-encyclopedic language (eg "snow-covered slopes"). But it is possible that I am being over-critical. So I am going to leave it for a few days to chew this over, and also hopefully gain the views of another reviewer or two.

Done

Overall, good work - well done.

Gog the Mild (talk) 19:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed

Background

On 6 April, Nazi Germany launched... For sake of clarity, given the previous sentence refers to 1940, I suggest "The following year, on 6 April, Nazi Germany launched..."

Done

Operation Marita, Athens Grammatically, I think that comma should be a semi-colon.

Done

the last resistance on the Greek mainland mopped up by the 30th. I appreciate it was a suggestion from Gog, but "mopped up" seems informal, suggest "the resistance on the Greek mainland had ceased by the 30th."

Done

Suggest breaking up the first paragraph, perhaps at "With the conclusion of Operation Marita..."

Done

Suggest linking prefectures

Done

I think a little context is needed for Xan Fielding and Alexander Andrae. E.g. "when a SOE agent on Crete, Xan Fielding, proposed seizing the island's chief military governor at the time, Alexander Andrae. When Andrae was posted away, his successor Bruno Bräuer was targeted for capture."

Done

Operation

I agree with Gog that there is quite a bit of detail in this section that doesn't need to be mentioned. I've made a couple of suggestions for trimming below.
Leigh Fermor was the only one airdropped at the Katharo plateau... This sentence structure implies the reader already knows the plan was to drop the team at Katharo plateau

Done

Is Villa Ariadne really worthy of a redlink?

Done

and received fake documents, don't think it is necessary to mention this as it doesn't seem pertinent to subsequent events

Done

to the divisional H.Q. suggest "to his divisional H.Q." (reinforces the point he was also commander of the 22nd Division)

Done

standstill, the location Grammatically, I think that comma should be a semi-colon.

Done

Feldgendarmerie Corporal summer uniforms, complete with campaign badges, suggest "Feldgendarmerie summer uniforms, complete with rank insignia for a corporal, campaign badges,"

Done

hid in a ditch 1 yard (0.91 m) east of the road. This seems unnecessarily precise. Could it just say "hid in a ditch on the east side of the road"?

Done

by the band of Michael Xylouris No antecedence for this band, suggest, "by a band of resistance men led by Michael Xylouris"

Done

where they stayed with the band of Georgios Petrakis. Petrakis only seems to be mentioned once, so suggest "where they stayed with another Cretan resistance group."

Done

Aftermath

First and only mention so recite its full name, no need for abbreviation.

Done

radio transmission and leaflets respectively suggest "radio transmission and leaflet drops respectively"

Done

possessed very little information suggest "possessed very little information of value to British Intelligence"?

Done

References

In this section, the formatting of the Helios Encyclopedia reference is odd.

@Zawed: Replaced with an English language source since Gog had previously requested it. All done.--Catlemur (talk) 13:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have at this stage. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 22:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm happy with this so am adding my support. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 02:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Nick-D

It's good to see an article on this important topic at ACR

"divisional H.Q." - replace "H.Q." with "headquarters" both times this appears

Done

"In 1943, Major Patrick Leigh Fermor and Captain William Stanley Moss " - what roles did they hold at this time?

Done

At the time the plan was initiated, did the British consider what the consequences of abducting Müller would be on the Cretan population given the likelihood this would lead to further German atrocities? If not, why not?

Done

Who approved the plan, and when?

Done

Did Leigh Fermor or other sources report that Müller had been replaced? If not why not?

Done

If he didn't report this, surely the Allied headquarters would have known this from codebreaking. Was consideration given to cancelling the operation? It seems a bit odd that the article says that the abduction team handled the decision making here.

Clarified that Leigh Fermor had informed SOE Cairo about the replacement on 30 March and the reasoning why he chose to pursue the execution of the operation.--Catlemur (talk) 15:18, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Why did the ELAS threaten to betray the SOE team? Were they worried about reprisals, or just the presence of the British?

This is most likely due to tensions between ELAS and right wing resistance groups across the country during the first phase of the Greek Civil War.--Catlemur (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"a runner told them that a boat will pick them up" - the tense is wrong here

Done

"a sick Soviet defector" - where did they come from?

They managed to run away from German forced labor camps on the island.--Catlemur (talk) 09:19, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The article really needs to include an assessment by historians about the wisdom of this operation. As I understand it, many consider the operation to have been morally indefensible given that it was of little strategic value and was always likely to lead to further German atrocities, while others (including Antony Beevor) take a different view

Added alternative views on the reprisals.--Catlemur (talk) 12:00, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

On that topic, Anthony Beevor's book Crete: The Battle and the Resistance is well worth consulting for extra details - for instance, that Leigh Fermor met with both Müller and Kreipe after the war.

Done

I'm concerned about the heavy emphasis on Leigh Fermor's book for sourcing: this is obviously a primary source, and there should be little need to consult it given the many other works on this topic. Nick-D (talk) 06:04, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick-D: I've replaced quite a few references to Leigh Fermor's book across the article. The main issue is that Leigh Fermor work is the most detailed of them all, so I will probably have to cut out details about the operation if I am to further replace existing references. Other than that, I think all the other issues have been addressed.--Catlemur (talk) 13:56, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments are now addressed. I suspect that there's scope to delve further into the historiography and debate over this operation as the article is prepared for FAC, but the A-class criteria are clearly met. Nick-D (talk) 04:24, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Eddie891

On my list Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:10, 6 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe pipe Egypt to Egypt during World War II, as you do for bulgaria

Done

"Fortress Crete, as it was now called" maybe "Crete, now called Fortress Crete," to be extra clear and eliminate 'it'

Done

"due to a sudden weather change that caused the area to be obscured by clouds" as in none of the others could be airdropped for this reason?

Yes.--Catlemur (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

" intent to pursue the execution of the operation" maybe just "intent to carry out the operation"?

Done

"t to raise the esprit de corps of" why not just morale?

Done

"motor launch at Tsoutsoura." motor being boat?

Wikilinked motor launch.--Catlemur (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

" Akoumianakis' house was ~~conveniently~~ locate"

Done

"deemed too dangerous for a direct assault" Is dangerous the best word? perhaps "well-fortified" or something similar? I'm not familiar with the sources, so that may not be what you want to say

Done

"who threatened to betray them to the authorities if they did not vacate the area." do we know why?

As I already mentioned above this is most likely due to tensions between ELAS and right wing resistance groups across the country during the first phase of the Greek Civil War (the reason is not explicitly mentioned in the source).--Catlemur (talk) 10:50, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

" To prevent reprisals," maybe add "against [X]"?

Done

" ~~Moreover,~~ Kreipe's aide-de-camp and guards" I don't think this really fits?

Done

"enabled the team" a bit unclear what team is referred to

The team of kidnappers.--Catlemur (talk) 11:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

could you clarify that in the article?

Done

" had been blown up by German troops" can this be phrased a little more clearly? Were the areas destroyed, just sporadically bombed or something else?

Done

"they were able to send and receive letters once again" to/from where? why would they choose to send letters if time was of the essence? Wouldn't there have been axis troops in the town?

Letters as in written messages sent via a dispatch runner.--Catlemur (talk) 11:32, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

could you clarify that in the article?

Done

"A day later George Psychoundakis" I think a brief description of why Psychoundakis was would be apt

Done

"that a George Jellicoe-led unit of the Special Boat Service (SBS)" -> "a unit of the SBS led by George Jellicoe" would flow more naturally, I think

Done

"The two groups" I think it's worth reiterating what the two groups were here

Unresolved

Done

" in their cat and mouse game with their pursuers" could this be phrased more encyclopedically, perhaps? "in avoiding their pursuers" or smth similar

Done

"oat is going to pick them up at Rodakino beach" tense? 'is' doesn't really fit with the rest of the article

Done

"Kreipe was hardly a Nazi zealot. " what does this mean? Can some context about this be added somethwere? maybe in an {{Efn}}?

Clarified that he was characterised as anti–Nazi by his interrogator.--Catlemur (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was unaware of any strategic importance of crete (in reading the article, at least) until the aftermath section, at which point the importance is gone, maybe mention it a bit in the background?

unresolved

I will have to write at least a paragraph about the North African campaign and Operation Animals to explain when and why Crete was strategically important. I think this is well beyond the scope of this article.--Catlemur (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Holocaust of Kedros isn't really connected to the rest of the article-- was it part of Müller's punishment?

Anogeia villagers provided assistance to the kidnappers, when Müller ordered its destruction this was among the reasons mentioned.--Catlemur (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Odd to me that there's little information on what happened to Kreipe after the kidnapping, or what the reactions outside of crete were-- I'd imagine there were a lot of reactions?

Added information on his internment. Bräuer stated before his execution that Kreipe was unimportant and that Germany had "boxes of generals" like him.--Catlemur (talk) 19:40, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

unresolved: is it worth adding/are there any notable international reactions?

It was covered by the BBC but other than that there were no notable international reactions. This was an extremely minor operation in the grand scheme of World War 2 as a conflict.--Catlemur (talk) 16:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"These events were portrayed in Moss's" add that the book is semi-autobiographical?

Done

Not sure that the 'popular culture' really is 'popular culture'-- it might be better titled to reflect its focus on autobiographical works

unresolved

Done

That's just about it from me, pretty nice work overall. Comments are suggestions, you may not decide to go with some/many/most/all of them-- and that's ok. Cheers, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:28, 9 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Catlemur, I've flagged some minor points above that I'd still like to see addressed. Cheers, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:31, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie891 I think I have now addressed all the concerns raised.--Catlemur (talk) 18:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to Support, now Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 17:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

Please standardise the ISBNs some of them have hyphens while others don't.

Done

Dear & Foot's archive.org link uses Oxford as city which makes more sense if it's written by Oxford University Press.

Done

Access dates aren't needed in books per WP:CITEHOW.

Done

Some ISBNs have 10 and others 13-digit numbers maybe standardise?

@CPA-5: Can you point out which ones are ISBN 10?--Catlemur (talk) 18:30, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kiriakopoulos's Greenwood should be Greenwood Publishing Group.

Done

What makes Kiriakopoulos so reliable if he was a professor of dentistry?

The book has received a positive review in a peer reviewed journal.

Koliopoulos has a wikilink maybe link him?

Done

Moss's Orion should be Orion Publishing Group.

Done

Ogden's Bene Factum should be Bene Factum Publishing.

Done

"War in the Balkans: The Battle for Greece and Crete 1940-1941" --> "War in the Balkans: The Battle for Greece and Crete 1940–1941"

Done

Google Books uses the year 2013 for Plowman while the article uses 2014?

Done

What makes Psychoundakis so reliable if he didn't had any degree nor he was a resistance fighter?

He was a resistance fighter. This is mentioned in both the article and George Psychoundakis.--Catlemur (talk) 11:08, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Both the ISBN as archive.org says the year is 1993 while Stefanidis here says 1992?

Done

Prescher's title should be translated.

Done

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 15:46, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've boldly fixed a couple of book years of publication which were throwing up harv errors. Are you happy with the responses here, CPA-5? Because I think this is otherwise ready for promotion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:08, 10 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.